138 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

I'm actually starting to feel happy about "counter-movements", like the thing with Mass Effect, and of course, Kickstarter projects.

That's maybe the only reason I'm here really. To undermine the forced popularization of RPGs.
(tongue in cheek maybe)

[Il Divo]

Zanallen wrote...

Son Ov Mars wrote...

Scorcher24 wrote...

Stop the casualization of your games and get back to your roots.

That went out the door the moment BioWare was bought by EA....

This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that Bioware has been making their games more and more casual since BG2.

Pretty much. Neverwinter Nights got rid of the 6 member party in favor of a single protagonist. KotOR dropped Vancian Casting. Jade Empire was one of the simplest combat systems they ever developed. And the ME series was more shooter with the actual RPG elements being very weak (Ex: inventory system).

Bioware's been mixing it up for a long time now. Really, the only deviation from this trend is DA:O, which itself still was still much simpler than BG. Obviously no one is required to like all these changes, but I still wouldn't say that it's a new concept for them.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[eroeru]

Il Divo wrote...
Obviously no one is required to like all these changes, but I still wouldn't say that it's a new concept for them.

I'll paraphrase thoughts from this thread (to my convenience):
everything is going down the drain, as far as big developers (and big only-point-is-money enterprises in general) are involved.

I understand that all are restricted by resources - but in making games, the point of it all should never be money, lest we get less worthy games...

Modifié par eroeru, 31 mars 2012 - 02:40 .

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Scorcher24 wrote...

I am/was a big Fan of you Bioware. I played them nearly all. 
BG1, BG2, Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 and many more.

You have always been the beacon for cool and noticable CRPG's for me.
But for the last years, you only dissapoint me in all respects.

You dumb down Dialog Options, you turn away from the community. Latest example is the announcement that DA3 will use the Frostbite 2 Engine, which means that there will be no mods and no Toolset, since the Middleware used for FB2 does not allow that, according to Dice.

I know it is hard serving games to a hardcore niche only, but does it have to go that far? 
Dragon Age 1 was good. It really was. Why can't you not just take the Engine, make it look better and make DA3 the same way DA1 was, with some minor improvements here and there where it makes sense. Why does every sequel has to be completly different from the first one and dumbed down a great deal?
Not to mention that the stories lack some depth lately, when I compare them to your former titles.

Bioware, please, remember what your games made great and come back to your former glory.
Stop the casualization of your games and get back to your roots.
A sad fan.

I say Pffffft to you good sir.
I've been following Bioware since NWN and I don't feel betrayed or disappointed with their games. In most cases I think people's expectations are either too high or they just want the same game over and over(like the whining over DA2). Oh and in regards to the "casualization" you mentioned in your post, with cases like fans complaining that DA2 was pandering to the console gamers is just nonsense. RPG and game design in general never stays the same, it's always changing. It's progress. For example:Most people love Deus Ex and sure it was revolutionary for its time but by today's standards in game design it just falls flat. Asking Bioware to go back to it's so called "Former Glory" is like asking people to stop using computers and go back to typing on primitive typewriters. And I totally disagree on your view of DA's sequels. If it was just minro improvements with the same enging and the same system then I would just stop playing, get sick of it fast. STALKER fell into this trap, sequel after sequel of carbon copies pumped out just so they can complete a trilogy.

[eroeru]

^^ I grow tired of the notion that the criticism and contra-movement aimed towards DA2 is whining.

Grow up, will you, and stop using mockeries.

[RazorrX]

First I am pretty sure that NWN2 was done by Obsidian under contract with Atari not Bioware. Bioware did not wish to do the sequel and passed it on to Obsidian, just as they had passed Kotor 2 to Obsidian from Lucas Arts.

Bioware has been moving to a more "Cinematic Experience" more and more of late. I feel that they have decided that RPG is too time consuming to build properly and as far as time = money the investment is not good enough anymore. It is way easier to make a cinematic story with a little player input than it is to build a deep RPG. When you look at sales for DA:O and compare to DA2 you see that there is a market for RPGs but then compare sales of DA:O to ME3 - no where near the sales and over 3 times the development cycle.

I believe that for those who really want a good RPG we are going to have to start looking at other developers. Obsidian keeps saying they want to build RPGs, CDProjectRed is another solid company for RPG, etc. I think that as time goes on, with the kickstarter projects and such we will start to see other companies coming in to fill the void left in the true RPG franchise as Bioware moves more toward a quicker development cycle "Cinematic Experience".

[bussinrounds]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Scorcher24 wrote...

I am/was a big Fan of you Bioware. I played them nearly all. 
BG1, BG2, Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 and many more.

You have always been the beacon for cool and noticable CRPG's for me.
But for the last years, you only dissapoint me in all respects.

You dumb down Dialog Options, you turn away from the community. Latest example is the announcement that DA3 will use the Frostbite 2 Engine, which means that there will be no mods and no Toolset, since the Middleware used for FB2 does not allow that, according to Dice.

I know it is hard serving games to a hardcore niche only, but does it have to go that far? 
Dragon Age 1 was good. It really was. Why can't you not just take the Engine, make it look better and make DA3 the same way DA1 was, with some minor improvements here and there where it makes sense. Why does every sequel has to be completly different from the first one and dumbed down a great deal?
Not to mention that the stories lack some depth lately, when I compare them to your former titles.

Bioware, please, remember what your games made great and come back to your former glory.
Stop the casualization of your games and get back to your roots.
A sad fan.

I say Pffffft to you good sir.
I've been following Bioware since NWN and I don't feel betrayed or disappointed with their games. In most cases I think people's expectations are either too high or they just want the same game over and over(like the whining over DA2). Oh and in regards to the "casualization" you mentioned in your post, with cases like fans complaining that DA2 was pandering to the console gamers is just nonsense. RPG and game design in general never stays the same, it's always changing. It's progress. For example:Most people love Deus Ex and sure it was revolutionary for its time but by today's standards in game design it just falls flat. Asking Bioware to go back to it's so called "Former Glory" is like asking people to stop using computers and go back to typing on primitive typewriters. And I totally disagree on your view of DA's sequels. If it was just minro improvements with the same enging and the same system then I would just stop playing, get sick of it fast. STALKER fell into this trap, sequel after sequel of carbon copies pumped out just so they can complete a trilogy.

'Progress'  isn't making RPGs more and more casual and turning them into interactive movies with dumbed down gameplay/mechanics.  You might like it, and there's no problem with that.  Different strokes and all that, but don't come with that load of complete horsesh*t..

   It all comes down to $$$ and trying to appeal to a bigger audience. They even came out and said publically they wanted to go after the 'COD crowd'.  They're not even trying to hide it,  which I actually kind of respect.  At least they're kind of admitting that don't even make crpgs any more. 

Modifié par bussinrounds, 31 mars 2012 - 04:42 .

[Chromie]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...
I say Pffffft to you good sir.
I've been following Bioware since NWN and I don't feel betrayed or disappointed with their games. In most cases I think people's expectations are either too high or they just want the same game over and over(like the whining over DA2).

And some people defend Bioware with every breath. Saying only ever whine about DA2 and wanted the same game is false.

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...
For example:Most people love Deus Ex and sure it was revolutionary for its time but by today's standards in game design it just falls flat.

And you look at Human Revolution definitely a great game and better than Invisible War. They took what makes the original so great the big open environments and multiple ways to accomplish an objective and brought it to a modern geeneration.

[Rockworm503]

Andarthiel_Demigod wrote...

Scorcher24 wrote...

I am/was a big Fan of you Bioware. I played them nearly all. 
BG1, BG2, Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 and many more.

You have always been the beacon for cool and noticable CRPG's for me.
But for the last years, you only dissapoint me in all respects.

You dumb down Dialog Options, you turn away from the community. Latest example is the announcement that DA3 will use the Frostbite 2 Engine, which means that there will be no mods and no Toolset, since the Middleware used for FB2 does not allow that, according to Dice.

I know it is hard serving games to a hardcore niche only, but does it have to go that far? 
Dragon Age 1 was good. It really was. Why can't you not just take the Engine, make it look better and make DA3 the same way DA1 was, with some minor improvements here and there where it makes sense. Why does every sequel has to be completly different from the first one and dumbed down a great deal?
Not to mention that the stories lack some depth lately, when I compare them to your former titles.

Bioware, please, remember what your games made great and come back to your former glory.
Stop the casualization of your games and get back to your roots.
A sad fan.

I say Pffffft to you good sir.
I've been following Bioware since NWN and I don't feel betrayed or disappointed with their games. In most cases I think people's expectations are either too high or they just want the same game over and over(like the whining over DA2). Oh and in regards to the "casualization" you mentioned in your post, with cases like fans complaining that DA2 was pandering to the console gamers is just nonsense. RPG and game design in general never stays the same, it's always changing. It's progress. For example:Most people love Deus Ex and sure it was revolutionary for its time but by today's standards in game design it just falls flat. Asking Bioware to go back to it's so called "Former Glory" is like asking people to stop using computers and go back to typing on primitive typewriters. And I totally disagree on your view of DA's sequels. If it was just minro improvements with the same enging and the same system then I would just stop playing, get sick of it fast. STALKER fell into this trap, sequel after sequel of carbon copies pumped out just so they can complete a trilogy.

Thats just it tho.
we're getting the same game over and over again.  Just with a different skin.
It sucks that it took ME3 to make me realize it.
Lets be honest here the gameplay is nothing special.  If I want good cover shooting I'll play Uncharted.  3 guess why I'm a fan of that series.  Overall Uncharted doesn't pretend to be something its not.  Its a Michael Bay flick in video game form and I love its honesty and hell it even has better multiplayer than ME3.  I'm sure there are a lot of people here who don't like me comparing ME3 to an action game but lets be honest.  Bioware threw away RPG a long time ago.
RPGs are supposed to let us to determine the role of the character.  That hasn't been since DAO and I defy anyone to tell me otherwise.  Shepard is a predetermined character.  You can change gender and face and thats it.  Renegade vs paragon.  I'm not an expert on RPGs but any system that shoehorns your choices like that shouldn't ever be considered one.
People complain about the RPG of the first ME is gone in the sequels.  I say they were never there to begin with.
I compare ME3 to Uncharted because if they want to scrap RPG and focus on action than at least get it right.

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

@bussinrounds, no offence but I stopped listening to your rants about Bioware and EA a long time ago
@Skelter192, agreed  about Deus Ex:HR that game was brilliant.
@Rockworm502, In some sense you are correct(between ME2 and ME3 anyway).However, who says that ME is an RPG. It's a shooter with some elements  borrowed from RPGs, that's it.

[Chromie]

Rockworm503 wrote...

RPGs are supposed to let us to determine the role of the character.  

I have been saying that since Kotor. You make a face, name them and fill out their abilites to an extent but Revan will always be Revan the Spirit Monk will always be the Spirit Monk and Shepard will always be Shepard. We are renting them not owning them.

[Faust1979]

Scorcher24 wrote...

I am/was a big Fan of you Bioware. I played them nearly all. 
BG1, BG2, Jade Empire, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 and many more.

You have always been the beacon for cool and noticable CRPG's for me.
But for the last years, you only dissapoint me in all respects.

You dumb down Dialog Options, you turn away from the community. Latest example is the announcement that DA3 will use the Frostbite 2 Engine, which means that there will be no mods and no Toolset, since the Middleware used for FB2 does not allow that, according to Dice.

I know it is hard serving games to a hardcore niche only, but does it have to go that far? 
Dragon Age 1 was good. It really was. Why can't you not just take the Engine, make it look better and make DA3 the same way DA1 was, with some minor improvements here and there where it makes sense. Why does every sequel has to be completly different from the first one and dumbed down a great deal?
Not to mention that the stories lack some depth lately, when I compare them to your former titles.

Bioware, please, remember what your games made great and come back to your former glory.
Stop the casualization of your games and get back to your roots.
A sad fan.

Why do you want Dragon Age 3 to be exactly like Dragon Age Origins? I don't want to keep playing the same thing over and over with only minor changes here and there.  They have been slowly turning to the more cinematic approach since Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic you can see them setting  a path there. But I prefer a more cinematic RPG it makes the stories more fun to play through and makes the characters more fun to interact with

Modifié par Faust1979, 01 avril 2012 - 02:18 .

[Rockworm503]

Why is it that people who are more than happy with Bioware's direction assume we want to play the same game over and over?

[FutureBoy81]

Nordicus wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that Bioware has been making their games more and more casual since BG2.

Dunno if I'd use the word "casualization" but I agree that Bioware has been making too many compromises to fit the tastes of of a larger audience (funny how little 'art' and 'compromise' mix btw). Instead of trying to push the RPG genre forward, they're just watering everything down, giving us ever more shallow RPG mechanics with better action segments. Bioware's actions will hurt the entire genre in the long run, as they and Bethesda are the biggest WRPG developers right now. What was Bioware's last RPG innovation? Dialog wheels? Mixed blessing at best

You might have missed a small title from quantic dreams called fahrenheit/indigo prophecy ....

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...
Pretty much. Neverwinter Nights got rid of the 6 member party in favor of a single protagonist. KotOR dropped Vancian Casting. Jade Empire was one of the simplest combat systems they ever developed. And the ME series was more shooter with the actual RPG elements being very weak (Ex: inventory system).

Bioware's been mixing it up for a long time now. Really, the only deviation from this trend is DA:O, which itself still was still much simpler than BG. Obviously no one is required to like all these changes, but I still wouldn't say that it's a new concept for them.

I pretty much agree with this, but let's not overrate the complexity of BG. The main things that make an Infinity Engine game complex -- or maybe "complicated" is the better word? -- are all the "noise" in the spell system and the lack of viable AI options. Plug DA:O's Tactics system into BG2 and I don't think I'd have to touch the spellcasters except for AoE placement. (Edit: and prioritizing buffs against offense in the spell loadouts, of course.) And outside of combat the BG games are quite simple, really. Lots of fetch quests, few decisions, few conversation options and even fewer that mean anything, one ending in BG and BG2, with two barely-distinguishable ones in ToB... and so on.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 avril 2012 - 04:45 .

[Faust1979]

Rockworm503 wrote...

Why is it that people who are more than happy with Bioware's direction assume we want to play the same game over and over?

the person I quoted was saying he wanted Dragon Age 3 to be the same thing as Dragon Age 1 things can't always stay the same

[R660]

The way I see it, Bioware is following a recent trend of moving away from "specialist" games and turning them more mainstream.

As with the whole "DA1, DA2, DA3" argument, I think you're all missing the point of the whole "RPG" thing. I'm a RPG Guy, I'll admit it, yes, I've played games like Halo: Reach and Gears of War but not because they had fancy graphics or impressive combat engines, just because I liked the story and universe behind them. If fans were happy with Dragon Age 1, which I know I was, having played it several times, then why do they feel the need to change it?

My point is, RPG's are not about the engines or the inventory systems, they're about the universe that captures you and really care for the world and it's characters. I personally believe that DA2 failed to do this, as honestly, I couldn't have cared less about who lived or died, or why the Dalish were now Irish. If DA3 can capture the magic that was DA1, I don't care what system it uses or how fancy the graphics are.

If any of that makes sense.

[eroeru]

^^That does make sense. Only that calling the Halo or Gears of War experience as sufficient requirements for using the term "RPG" is not at all correct.

[AlanC9]

R660 wrote...
As with the whole "DA1, DA2, DA3" argument, I think you're all missing the point of the whole "RPG" thing. I'm a RPG Guy, I'll admit it, yes, I've played games like Halo: Reach and Gears of War but not because they had fancy graphics or impressive combat engines, just because I liked the story and universe behind them. If fans were happy with Dragon Age 1, which I know I was, having played it several times, then why do they feel the need to change it?


My point is, RPG's are not about the engines or the inventory systems, they're about the universe that captures you and really care for the world and it's characters. I personally believe that DA2 failed to do this, as honestly, I couldn't have cared less about who lived or died, or why the Dalish were now Irish. If DA3 can capture the magic that was DA1, I don't care what system it uses or how fancy the graphics are.

If any of that makes sense.

It makes sense, though it doesn't really explain why DA2's story and world didn't work for you. But that's OT for this thread, since your essential point is that casualization is irrelevant.

[bEVEsthda]

Son Ov Mars wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Son Ov Mars wrote...

Scorcher24 wrote...

Stop the casualization of your games and get back to your roots.

That went out the door the moment BioWare was bought by EA....

This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that Bioware has been making their games more and more casual since BG2.

Indeed, but what I meant was EA is not going to let them "go back to their roots"  and make old school RPGs, which are unprofitable(not making millions of dollars). And that the casualization in their games has gone up x11 since being bought by EA. Just look at Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3. 

The problem is just that EA's ideas don't work. They have never worked. DA2 profitable? They just totally ruined the DA brandname with DA2. Compared to that disaster, the triumph that they fooled +1 million of DA:O fans to buy that garbage weighs very lightly. How are they going to market DA3 now? For instance. That will be a hard sell now.

See how quickly Bioware's name became tarnished? And so they have done, again and again, developer after developer. They're not really successful. Rather, EA is spectacularly unsuccessful. They survive only by frantically buying up new franchises which have (as of yet) valuable brand names.
Will they buy Bethesda next?

[eroeru]

^^(clapping my hands, slow but firmly)

[Volourn]

BIo's newer games are much more true to rpgness and C&C than their older games. BG1? LMAO BG2? LMA MDK2? SS? OMG Dumbinmg down the role-playinmg aspects? Did anyone here actually play the BGs? L0L

p.s. As for Obsidfian,s ure they made the very good Fo;NV but they also made two of the worst games of all time. *puke* And, they spend their time along with their fanboys blaming every publisher for their downfall.

BIO> OBS

No contest.

DS3 and AP proves that Obsidian don't know how to make a real rpg. FO:NV musta been luck.

Modifié par Volourn, 02 avril 2012 - 03:27 .