373 réponses à ce sujet

[Startkabel]

65% health and shield bonus is way better than 30% damage protection. 20% power damage is nice but with the 30% cooldown penalty it is more efficient to use a power with 20% less damage 30% more quickly

[Dashmundo]

Startkabel wrote...

65% health and shield bonus is way better than 30% damage protection. 20% power damage is nice but with the 30% cooldown penalty it is more efficient to use a power with 20% less damage 30% more quickly

This isn't saying to go 6-6-6-6-0, you'd obviously be putting some points into fitness. I usually simply go for 3.

When it comes to cooldown penalties, that's not how it works. You don't use it 30% more quickly, after all. Let me explain - just did some research with cooldown times of powers and different percentages:

This is assuming, of course, you're trying your best to hit the 200% mark - which I do.

- The base cooldown of Warp is near the 6.4 second mark (0% bonus cooldown - I say "near" because I did my research with a Claymore, which took it to -1% rather than 0%)
- At 200%, according to the powers screen, Warp is now at 2.46 seconds.
- At 170% (equipped a light shotgun which took it to that mark), Warm is now at 2.71 seconds

So, according to the power screen, there's is a .25 second difference between those powers - can be argued to be nearly negligible when fighting, but let's do the math in any case:

Let us assume we do 300 Damage with a cast of Overload (the actual damage escapes me). Let's see which character does more damage spamming overload over 15 seconds, 30 seconds, and 1 minute.

15 seconds:
20% power damage + 170% cooldown =  1992.6   (did 15/cooldown-time * (300 + 1/5*300))
200% cooldown = 1829.3 (15/cooldwon-time * (300))

30 seconds:
20% power damage + 170% cooldown = 3985.2 (same formula, but 30 instead of 15)
200% cooldown = 3658.5 

1 minute:
20% power damage + 170% cooldown = 7970.5
200% cooldown = 7317.1

So, in both the SHORT TERM AND LONG TERM, having the 20% damage bonus means you spread more damage, regardless of the 30% cooldown.

Hope that's clear enough, feel free to question the maths. The key here is that 200% vs 170% is not the same as 0% vs -30%. Percentages do not work that way.

Modifié par Dashmundo, 16 avril 2012 - 10:51 .

[OniGanon]

Worried about some comments in another thread, I went and checked the math for durability. Note that the Shield Recharge bonus of Fitness Rank 5 isn't taken into account.

T/F
0/0 = D
0/6 = 1.65D
6/0 = 1.67D
3/3 = 1.67D
4/3 = 1.79D
3/4 = 1.87D
4/4 = 2.00D
6/3 = 2.08D
3/6 = 2.20D
6/4 = 2.33D
4/6 = 2.36D
6/6 = 2.75D

Agenda42 pretty much had it correct other than the 6/0 result and some inconsequential rounding error on his or my part.

Modifié par OniGanon, 16 avril 2012 - 11:05 .

[cruc1al]

Dashmundo wrote...
So, in both the SHORT TERM AND LONG TERM, having the 20% damage bonus means you spread more damage, regardless of the 30% cooldown

Thanks for this post. Hadn't realized that the 30% cooldown penalty is additive rather than multiplicative, I just always thought of it like this: with my armor on, powers cool down 30% slower, the end. But no, the difference is much, much less than that when starting from a 200% bonus

[Startkabel]

Dashmundo wrote...

Startkabel wrote...

65% health and shield bonus is way better than 30% damage protection. 20% power damage is nice but with the 30% cooldown penalty it is more efficient to use a power with 20% less damage 30% more quickly

This isn't saying to go 6-6-6-6-0, you'd obviously be putting some points into fitness. I usually simply go for 3.

When it comes to cooldown penalties, that's not how it works. You don't use it 30% more quickly, after all. Let me explain - just did some research with cooldown times of powers and different percentages:

This is assuming, of course, you're trying your best to hit the 200% mark - which I do.

- The base cooldown of Warp is near the 6.4 second mark (0% bonus cooldown - I say "near" because I did my research with a Claymore, which took it to -1% rather than 0%)
- At 200%, according to the powers screen, Warp is now at 2.46 seconds.
- At 170% (equipped a light shotgun which took it to that mark), Warm is now at 2.71 seconds

So, according to the power screen, there's is a .25 second difference between those powers - can be argued to be nearly negligible when fighting, but let's do the math in any case:

Let us assume we do 300 Damage with a cast of Overload (the actual damage escapes me). Let's see which character does more damage spamming overload over 15 seconds, 30 seconds, and 1 minute.

15 seconds:
20% power damage + 170% cooldown =  1992.6   (did 15/cooldown-time * (300 + 1/5*300))
200% cooldown = 1829.3 (15/cooldwon-time * (300))

30 seconds:
20% power damage + 170% cooldown = 3985.2 (same formula, but 30 instead of 15)
200% cooldown = 3658.5 

1 minute:
20% power damage + 170% cooldown = 7970.5
200% cooldown = 7317.1

So, in both the SHORT TERM AND LONG TERM, having the 20% damage bonus means you spread more damage, regardless of the 30% cooldown.

Hope that's clear enough, feel free to question the maths. The key here is that 200% vs 170% is not the same as 0% vs -30%. Percentages do not work that way.

I am aware that percantages work relatively and relatively it is the same - 30% difference.

You are making a big mistake, you are comparing the 20% damage and 170% cooldown with just 200% cooldown but both with the same timeframe.

What I was pointing out that the damage is spammed 30% quicker, so if you are taking 1 minute for example for 20% damage and 170% cooldown you have to compare that to 40 seconds when looking at just 200% cooldown.

[OniGanon]

At +141% recharge (+200% recharge with 60% TA penalty), Warp cooldown is 3.02s. It's a noticeable increase but a more than fair trade for 41% more survivability IMO.

Overload CDs (with Recharge evo because Neural Shock is useless):
+200% = ~2.29s
+170% = ~2.50s
+140% = ~2.76s

Modifié par OniGanon, 16 avril 2012 - 12:10 .

[Dashmundo]

Startkabel wrote...
I am aware that percantages work relatively and relatively it is the same - 30% difference.

You are making a big mistake, you are comparing the 20% damage and 170% cooldown with just 200% cooldown but both with the same timeframe.

What I was pointing out that the damage is spammed 30% quicker, so if you are taking 1 minute for example for 20% damage and 170% cooldown you have to compare that to 40 seconds when looking at just 200% cooldown.

Tech armor does not REDUCE COOLDOWNS by 30% percentage. It imposes a 30% penalty. The difference is this:

It does not reduce your time achieved by a 200% cooldown by 30%, rather reduces the difference to 170% instead of 200%. Try it out.

You aren't spamming damage 30% quicker. The penalty has a negligible difference when 200% is reduced to 170%, as opposed to 0% reduced to -30% (which is what you're referring to).

Try reading the post, think about it mathematically, and understand the difference between 200% and 170% isn't the same as "reducing power-spam by 30%".

On the other hand, you can just ignore it completely, I don't mind.

[Startkabel]

I totally understand, however it is the 20% power damage bonus that is useless, not the cooldown bonus.

[cruc1al]

Startkabel wrote...

I totally understand, however it is the 20% power damage bonus that is useless, not the cooldown bonus.

How it is useless? You do more damage with tech armor on (specced for damage and 30% penalty) than with tech armor off. That is especially a plus on heavy targets, but also useful against weak targets because on average they die faster. With the damage bonus you can also more reliably single-shot shields on enemies. I can single-shot Phantom's Barrier on Gold thanks to tech armor.

Modifié par cruc1al, 16 avril 2012 - 12:15 .

[Geist.H]

I can single-shot Phantom's Barrier on Gold thanks to tech armor.

T/F

0/6 = 1.65D

vs

4/4 = 2.00D
or
3/6 = 2.20D

We have winners. Mixing TA&fitness = More DPS and more survivability at the cost of 0,3/0,5 second cooldown increase which is hardly noticable ingame, do not read the 10 pages of testing and statistics, just have faith in random players who used TA for maybe one match, did not like it because their builds had no synergy whatsoever with it and created threads to rant about how it sucks.

TA / Fitness mix was already better pre-buff, now it's just a nobrainer.

The OHOK grab cancel is just a cherry on top of the cake.

Modifié par Geist.H, 16 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[Startkabel]

Turian Sentinel sux, cannot make combat rolls, does minor damage, cannot make combo's. User the human sentinel WITHOUT tech armor but MAX FITNESS or even better, use Salarian infiltrator and just make instant kills with drain+cloaked widow shot.

[kyles3]

Startkabel wrote...

Turian Sentinel sux, cannot make combat rolls, does minor damage, cannot make combo's. User the human sentinel WITHOUT tech armor but MAX FITNESS or even better, use Salarian infiltrator and just make instant kills with drain+cloaked widow shot.

The post that launched a thousand facepalms.

[Geist.H]

kyles3 wrote...

Startkabel wrote...

Turian
Sentinel sux, cannot make combat rolls, does minor damage, cannot make
combo's. User the human sentinel WITHOUT tech armor but MAX FITNESS or
even better, use Salarian infiltrator and just make instant kills with
drain+cloaked widow shot.

The post that launched a thousand facepalms.

Indeed, clearly doesn't know what he is talking about. Just another synergy/teamplay blind solo hero. Let's move on.

Modifié par Geist.H, 16 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[Startkabel]

Not at all, you clearly want to be a gay helper for your team. I want to be able to kill on my own and as Infiltrator I am the one reviving dead Turians time and time again.

Modifié par Startkabel, 16 avril 2012 - 02:21 .

[Seeten]

Alright, Rambo, solo those waves!

[Dashmundo]

Startkabel wrote...

Not at all, you clearly want to be a gay helper for your team. I want to be able to kill on my own and as Infiltrator I am the one reviving dead Turians time and time again.

Firstly, no need to be a homophobe. Secondly, you probably shouldn't be playing a co-op multiplayer game with that attitude.

Have fun playing by yourself.

[We Tigers]

Ignoring trollface up there, I tried out a 3/5/6/6/6 teamed up with a geth engineer this weekend. Highly recommended if you want some serious stun fun. It was basically like a wacky buddy cop movie with endless overloads. The Turian is Murtaugh, the Engineer is Riggs, and the awesome geth turret can be Joe Pesci's character. With the shield recharge from the geth drone, we posted up in the guard shack on Hydra and kept all of cerberus locked down with ease, basically creating a shooting gallery for the team in the main open field. Very quick clear through extraction.

[Startkabel]

You are not reading, I say I WANT TO BE ABLE, not I ONLY WANT.

So yes Salarian Infiltrator is a better teamplayer AND a better Rambo and the Sentinel is inferior.

You know it is true. Turian Sentinel A PRETY DULL GUY

Modifié par Startkabel, 16 avril 2012 - 03:04 .

[Geist.H]

I tried out a 3/5/6/6/6 teamed up with a geth engineer this weekend. Highly recommended if you want some serious stun fun. It was basically like a wacky buddy cop movie with endless overloads. The Turian is Murtaugh, the Engineer is Riggs, and the awesome geth turret can be Joe Pesci's character. With the shield recharge from the geth drone, we posted up in the guard shack on Hydra and kept all of cerberus locked down with ease, basically creating a shooting gallery for the team in the main open field. Very quick clear through extraction.

Falconbros.

GE 6/6/6/4/4, TS 6/6/6/4/4

Glacier,
Two Falcons,
Disruptor Ammos,
GE initiates with Shield damage perk overload, TS follows with triple chain, alternate your Falcon fire.
Walk around the map, no cover, seek&destroy style.

Just try it.

[Startkabel]

Don't have disr. ammo FAIL

[kevchy]

Looks like somebody here doesn't know how to play as a good Turian Sentinel

Anyway, I'm still having fun with my set up at 3/5/6/6/6.

You can trap multiple enemies, regardless of what faction with overload. And the TS can be a one man firing squad.

[akula51]

Tech Armor + a bunch of math still = fail.

I revive a lot of infiltrators, even with a 0/6/6/6/6 build.

[cruc1al]

I just respecced my Turian Sentinel. It's essentially a tanky Turian Soldier with Overload but no Marksman.

Tech Armor (6):
specced for 40% damage reduction and +20% power damage. -60% recharge.

Warp (0):
I use weapons against armor. Teammates will still be able to combo my Overload for a Tech Burst.

Overload (6):
Chain, Recharge, vs. Shields/Barriers. I can one shot all of the following shields on Gold: Centurion, Nemesis, Engineer, Marauder, Rocket Trooper. The chain effect will often weaken the shields of enemies I can't one-shot, making them vulnerable after my second overload.

Turian Veteran (6):
+55% stability, +30% weapon damage, +15% power damage, no extra weight bonuses.

Fitness [6]:
Survivability.

With Mattock X, I have an effective +106% recharge which gives me a bit over 3 seconds on Overload. It's definitely fast enough for removing shields whenever needed, and it can do pretty good CC as well - it's not always worth spamming it too much because it takes away from the amount of time I can keep firing. Since I'm tanky (825/1238 with 40% DR), I can stay out of cover pretty well. I also wouldn't feel bad carrying even more than that, like an additional sniper rifle (Garrus, anyone?). E.g. Mantis X + Mattock X = effective +5% recharge. About 5.5 seconds for each Overload.

Modifié par cruc1al, 16 avril 2012 - 03:56 .

[LostinJersey]

I'm currently running a 0/6/6/6/6 build on my TS but after the TA buff and doing some quick math and reading this thread I think I'm gonna promote and try out a 6/6/6/5/3 build. the extra cool down time isn't a big deal now. it amounts to approximately half a second longer for the cool downs(that's with the full 60% penalty). that just means I get one or two more bursts of fire from my vindicator before my next spell can be cast.

how does the timing work for the TA explosion to get away from a OHKO? is it just before the animation or anytime during the animation? since this is gonna be available to me now I should at least figure out how to use it.

[Geist.H]

You have to use it just as the grab animation begins, when your camera becomes "locked in", it's quite tricky but once you get the proper timing, you feel like wearing a trollfacemask each time a banshee grabs you.