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[Guide] The Turian Sentinel, a pretty cool guy.


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#51
Donzilla_

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akula51 wrote...

PhalanxForMe wrote...

Screw tech armor. I reset my powers last night and went all in on everything else and couldn't be happier. Spamming chain overload and taking off heads with the mattock after is satisfying. Warp is great for bringing down elites or setting up biotic charges, but tech armor... Useless

+1, next reset powers card I get, Tech Armor will be forever a thing of distant memories.  I literally never use it on my TS since it slows down that overload...overload...overload...warp...overload...action.


Same here.  I have tech armor maxed right now but I've been playing without using it lately and found that I'm more effective that way.  The reduced cooldown from not using tech armor more than makes up for the extra power damage.  Sure if you are pure soloing something then maybe TA is worthwhile, but with any teammate who uses powers you will be getting more tech bursts/biotic explosions.

It does require a more careful playstyle of course.

Also, for the last rank of turian veteran I go for damage instead of reduced AR weight because I love using the geth plasma shotgun.  Also it gives you the option to switch it up and use a black widow if you want instead of being forced into ARs only.  It may not be statistically the best choice but it's worth it to me for the increased variety.

#52
BaeBunni

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personally The Sentinel Turian imo should be used a tanking gunner more then a support caster mostly because turians are good shooters and far worst at skill powers.

#53
Geist.H

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Same here. I have tech armor maxed right now but I've been playing without using it lately and found that I'm more effective that way. The reduced cooldown from not using tech armor more than makes up for the extra power damage. Sure if you are pure soloing something then maybe TA is worthwhile, but with any teammate who uses powers you will be getting more tech bursts/biotic explosions.


Tech Armor... with the right perks... does not increase... CD.

Do people on this forum have a crippling disability or something ? 3 Pages about it and yet people just keep coming at it.

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 09:30 .


#54
Donzilla_

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Geist.H wrote...

Same here. I have tech armor maxed right now but I've been playing without using it lately and found that I'm more effective that way. The reduced cooldown from not using tech armor more than makes up for the extra power damage. Sure if you are pure soloing something then maybe TA is worthwhile, but with any teammate who uses powers you will be getting more tech bursts/biotic explosions.


Tech Armor... with the right perks... does not increase... CD.

Do people on this forum have a crippling disability or something ? 3 Pages about it and yet people just keep coming at it.

Well in our defence, it clearly states in the tooltip that it reduces power cooldown by 80% (or only 50% with talents).  It could very well be that there is a bug or odd calcualation that causes it to have a 0 or negligable effect.  I'd love to see some video evidence showing the exact times.  I'd do it myself if I had any spare respec cards.  But hopefully you can understand why we are skeptical. 

Here's an interesting experiment:  It may be that your power cooldown when using mattock X and -30% AR weight is resulting in a near 250% cooldown reduction, but capped and 200%.  Then the -50% from tech armor subtracts from the original non capped amount and leaves you still at 200%.

What you could do is use a heavier AR (or any other weapon) that leaves you below 200%, then check your cooldown with and without TA active.  If the above is true, then you will notice a cooldown difference with the heavier weapon.

btw, how do you determine the cooldown anyway?  There isn't a tooltip in game that would show the adjusted cooldown after activating TA, and when talking about time differences of less than a second in a 4 second range it can be hard to see exactly how much of a change there is.

#55
Father Alvito

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Geist.H wrote...

Tech Armor... with the right perks... does not increase... CD.

Do people on this forum have a crippling disability or something ? 3 Pages about it and yet people just keep coming at it.


But then we would have to take an Assault Rifle instead of a Hornet, and no one wants to gimp their DPS like that.

Just saying.

#56
TSCIGAR

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Okay, let's try this again...

The noble Turian Sentinel: ever watchful, standing vigilant to protect those in need. A shield for the weak, and the spearhead for a counterattack. A skilled Turian binds his entire team together, pushing them all to new, hitherto undreamt of heights. Truly, no force in the galaxy is complete without the staunch support of a Turian Sentinel.

(mood's important, okay?)

My Turian Sentinel is specced slightly differently than Geists, and I daresay slightly less optimally. My playstyle is fairly reliant on gunplay, because I find it fun. He is designed to hold flanks, debuff, and combo with Engineers/Adepts, as well as float to where the enemy is pressing the hardest when an extra shot is needed. Holding flanks a lot, he is often on his own and needs to be capable of holding the line by himself, at least until the combo guys have weakened the frontal assault a bit. He is slightly worse at CC than Geist's builds, but can hit a little harder by himself and take a bit more damage to lessen his reliance on backup. Build is such:

Vindicator X (was using it pretty much religiously from V on Gold) with extended barrel and either AP or magazine mods.

TA 6- DR, Power Damage, DR
Warp 6- Detonate, Expose, Pierce
Overload 4- Chain Overload
Turian Veteran 6- Power/Weight, Power Damage, Weapon Damage/Stability
Fitness 4- Health and Shields

(Preferred Mods: AP/Warp, depending on team and weapon mods, Assualt Rifle Rail Amp, Either Power Efficiency or preferably Cyclonic Modulator- that DR really shines with a CM III, you know?)

Something you'll notice immediately is that my Turian is not specced for power speed. This makes a difference of about one second, which is less important in my opinion considering that pretty much all combos I can do are reliant on someone else. Also, like I said, I like to shoot things in the face. I'll gladly take an extra 10% DR to compensate for firing off less Warps/Overloads, especially when I'm firing that Vindicator more to take advantage of Expose.

You'll also notice I take the unpopular Overload 4 route. The truth is, the chain damage isn't great, and the stun isn't long enough for that one more mob to make a huge difference, especially when simply shooting them with one burst from the Vindicator will stun them too. I also don't really notice a difference in the stun length with the Stun Organics evolution, so I decided that 15% more tank (plus 40% DR, so more like 25% more effective tank) was more worthwhile. Against mobs that OL affects, I find that I can pop an OL, shoot someone else with one burst to stun, then kill the two stunned mobs and be ready to fire another OL. Works very well for crowd control, given a fairly decent holding point- it doesn't need to be the bottom of the stairs in White, but it will be noticeably less effective from, say, the sniper's nest on Dagger (why are you there anyway, is what I want to know).

My bread and butter though is Warp. It briefly stuns little guys so you can mop them up quickly with your gun, it works well with either tech or biotic combos, and it makes a bigger difference against boss creatures- if a banshee comes your way and you're holding a position by yourself, it's not going to be the end of the world. Against a boss, I usually prefer to hit them with a warp first for the expose bonus, then overload until barriers/shields are gone, then keep hammering away with warp (of course, unloading metal at them the entire time). The difference becomes even more marked when with teammates- it's always fun the first time you hear a sniper say "jesus, that atlas went down fast" and you get to point out the damage bonus from expose to them (and the pierce, but armor affects snipers less anyway). Against Brutes and Ravagers in particular, you notice a huge difference in your damage output.

I still need to do more testing on if the TA explosion will knock you out of all grabs on Gold- so far, I consider the limited testing I've done to be inconclusive (like I said up there, really only one time). I need a banshee to grab me to be sure. It could only be with the TA Explosion evolutions, and frankly that's a lot less useful (sorry, TA Explosion Turians. I'm sure your build is awesome. It just never worked for me in any way; to be honest, I'm not even convinced you exist on Gold). The biggest weakness of the Turian is his lack of dodges, but this is only truthfully a problem against instagibs, and if I can get the TA Explosion to knock me out of them, then it doesn't really matter anymore.

As with any Turian Sentinel, this character shines best working with the team. Help speed up those tech or biotic bursts (incidental: do warp's combo bonuses apply to tech combos too? I've always assumed yes, but don't do enough comparing to actually know) while providing covering fire and a nice big target, or covering a sniper while dropping warp to do more damage, or overloading some targets to paint them for a Soldier and weakening armor for those heavy machine guns. All this with the knowledge that you can take a punishment and hold the forces of evil at bay when your team needs you to.

I'll say it again- this build probably isn't as optimal as Geist's. He seems to be a much more thorough tester than I am. All I can say is it's still very effective on Gold, and will better fit a playstyle that enjoys guns a bit more than powers.

#57
Geist.H

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Mattock X > Hornet.

Ingame cooldown on overload with TA off = 4 seconds.
Ingame cooldown on overload with TA on = 4 seconds.

Calculated chrono in hand.

Just test it before repeating what the people who never bothered testing the class in depth are babbling. Especially when several people came before you saying the same thing, to meet the receive the same answer. Well, excuse me, getting tired and moody I suppose.

I would simply like people to test out what I'm presenting before saying that it doesnt work, would I bother making a guide otherwise ?

Posted Image

Surfing on Tech Bursts in a mediocre pug, uncoordinated team. Spamming and tanking like there is no tomorrow with said build. It works, go ahead and test it.

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 10:05 .


#58
Poekel

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Geist.H wrote...

Same here. I have tech armor maxed right now but I've been playing without using it lately and found that I'm more effective that way. The reduced cooldown from not using tech armor more than makes up for the extra power damage. Sure if you are pure soloing something then maybe TA is worthwhile, but with any teammate who uses powers you will be getting more tech bursts/biotic explosions.


Tech Armor... with the right perks... does not increase... CD.

Sorry to disappoint but at least in uncommon settings it does :P. Just specced a human sentinel with -30% CD, equipped Weapons to have +4% CD and CD of Warp rises from 6 seconds to 9 seconds with Tech Armor on. Added Points in Turian Veteran for reduced weight (think it was +38% CD in weapon menu then) and CD of Warp was 4 seconds with 6 seconds CD. Now equipping just a Shuriken X (200% CD) there was no noticable CD anymore (3 seconds each, probably either 2s CD or 2.5s CD).

Did another test with the Human Femal and here (Shuriken X, no 30% CD reduction) there always was a difference between CD times with Tech Armor and without. Again I did not spec Warp for reduced CD (might be interesting to see if there could be difference or not).

Basically as long as you have a low weight weapon you won't get any noticable CD effects when using Tech Armor with CD reduction but you will get it as soon as you weapon weight gets up.

€: The test with high weapon loadout pretty clearly show a CD reduction of about 50% regardless of CD length (no difference between lighter loadout). Did not do this with the 80% one. The 80% one though did not seem to be down by 80% but less. It might be that there is a hard cap for CDs which is not used for the calculations (so if the hard cap would be 2.5s but you should have a CD of 1.5s a 50% increase in CD still would be below the hard cap while an 80% increase would be above it).

Modifié par Poekel, 30 mars 2012 - 10:11 .


#59
BossXIX

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 Excellent job good sir! I've always had fun using this character, helping teammates and kicking ass :happy:

#60
Geist.H

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Sorry to disappoint but at least in uncommon settings it does :P. Just specced a human sentinel with -30% CD, equipped Weapons to have +4% CD and CD of Warp rises from 6 seconds to 9 seconds with Tech Armor on. Added Points in Turian Veteran for reduced weight (think it was +38% CD in weapon menu then) and CD of Warp was 4 seconds with 6 seconds CD. Now equipping just a Shuriken X (200% CD) there was no noticable CD anymore (3 seconds each, probably either 2s CD or 2.5s CD).

Did another test with the Human Femal and here (Shuriken X, no 30% CD reduction) there always was a difference between CD times with Tech Armor and without. Again I did not spec Warp for reduced CD (might be interesting to see if there could be difference or not).

Basically as long as you have a low weight weapon you won't get any noticable CD effects when using Tech Armor with CD reduction but you will get it as soon as you weapon weight gets up.


This thread is about Turian Sentinel, just so you know.  Sorry to disappoint.

Posted Image
 

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 10:11 .


#61
Ravennus

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The issue with Tech Armor recharge penalty (or rather, the lack of an issue) is that recharge modifiers are affected by diminished returns.

Essentially, if you get your cooldown bonus high enough there comes a point when adding more doesn't make a noticeable difference.

The difference between 200% recharge and 150% might only be 1/10 second, depending on the base cooldown of the power. Factor in not being able to queue powers, lag, and combat situations that don't allow you to spam powers 24/7..... and excess cooldown bonuses are largely wasted.

Chasing the ever-popular 200% cooldown weight bonus SEEMS like a great idea on paper, but in application it's something of a trap.

This goes for all classes. Many people settle for a less powerful weapon simply because they want that holy grail of 200% recharge.
I used to be victim of this as well... and would not take a proven better weapon simply because it lowered by bonus to 190% instead of 200%.

Try it.... you might be surprised. Those 1/10 second differences aren't really all that amazing in actual gameplay.

EDIT: This is the reason you aren't seeing a difference when testing the power cooldowns in game.  The milleseconds of difference is almost impossible to judge just by timing it in your head or with a hand chrono.

It's one of the reason I love my human and turian sentinals.
My human sentinal can wreck faces and 'splode atlases with the best Asari Adept, and is more durable. Stasis is nice, but I loves my tech armor! :D

Modifié par Ravennus, 30 mars 2012 - 10:14 .


#62
Poekel

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This thread is about Turian Sentinel, just so you know.  Sorry to disappoint.

Posted Image
 

And it is not irrelevant as the skills in mention that up the CD and reduce it are the same for every Sentinel class (as is shown with tests with Human Sentinels). No reason why the results should be different if the important skills are more or less the same (heck with humans you even get a 20% reduction for all weapons to test)

#63
Geist.H

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What about having both 200% CD and a good weapon such as a Mattock X or Vindicator X ? The Sentinel is amongst the classes that benefits the most from CD, it's not wasted on it.

But thank you, giving me a break from TA CD increase nonsense.

And it is not irrelevant as the skills in mention that up the CD and reduce it are the same for every Sentinel class (as is shown with tests with Human Sentinels). No reason why the results should be different if the important skills are more or less the same (heck with humans you even get a 20% reduction for all weapons to test)


Humans... do not have... Turian's racial 30% reduced Rifle weight.

Seriously.

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 10:16 .


#64
RamsenC

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I've mentioned this before, but it hasn't shown up in this thread so I'll mention it again :

Cryo Falcon + Overload + Turian Weight Reduction = best CC class in the game

On top of that you can set up or finish explosions with warp. Respec out tech armor.

#65
Geist.H

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Tech Armor gives more DPS and equal resilience than Fitness 6, I will test the falcon however as I do indeed like to use Cryo Ammo on my TS.

#66
Donzilla_

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Ravennus wrote...

The issue with Tech Armor recharge penalty (or rather, the lack of an issue) is that recharge modifiers are affected by diminished returns.

Essentially, if you get your cooldown bonus high enough there comes a point when adding more doesn't make a noticeable difference.

The difference between 200% recharge and 150% might only be 1/10 second, depending on the base cooldown of the power. Factor in not being able to queue powers, lag, and combat situations that don't allow you to spam powers 24/7..... and excess cooldown bonuses are largely wasted.


Is there an explanation for how that works?  It seems like a change from 150% to 200% should be the same as from 0% to 50%.

In any case, I think the result here is that if you are using a weapon with your sentinal that give 200% ercharge or close to it, then tech armor is probably worhtwhile.  If you want something heavier for whatever reason, then consider that the heaver your weapon is, the worse the TA penalty becomes, eventually reaching a point where it's better to skip it entierly.

#67
Geist.H

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Mattock X = 200%
Vindicator X = 200%
Phaeston X = 200%
Falcon X = 170%
Saber X = 157% estimationon on a 5% bonus per rank basis.

Mantis X = 180%
Raptor X = 180%
Widow X = 80%
Black Widow X = 75 % estimation on a 5% per rank basis

The Mattock is all that matters anyway.

I believe that Tech Armor increases your >actual level of weight< by 80/50%, meanin that if you have no weight at all, it increases 0, so nothing.

It could mean that the game's tooltip is wrong or that Turian racial weight bonuses are bugged, I dunno, what I can tell you is that it works.

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 10:32 .


#68
RamsenC

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Geist.H wrote...

Tech Armor gives more DPS and equal resilience than Fitness 6, I will test the falcon however as I do indeed like to use Cryo Ammo on my TS.


Tech armor slows cooldowns, which hurts your CC ability and warp explode. Power damage has no effect on biotic explosion damage. Also when you say TA = Fitness do you mean with 40% damage reduction, because if so those cooldowns are even worse. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 30 mars 2012 - 10:33 .


#69
Crimzoneyed

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Human sentinels > Turian sentinel sadly....
Why?
Biotic Explosion > Tech burst any day xD

#70
Geist.H

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Tech armor slows cooldowns


Sigh... No.

Read the thread from the beginning.

Human sentinels > Turian sentinel sadly....
Why?
Biotic Explosion > Tech burst any day xD


TS can trigger both, where is the problem ?

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 10:33 .


#71
RamsenC

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I read your first post, it doesn't change my point since my build uses the Falcon.

#72
Crimzoneyed

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Geist.H wrote...

TS can trigger both, where is the problem ?


You can't make your own explosion.

#73
Ravennus

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Donzilla_ wrote...

Ravennus wrote...

The issue with Tech Armor recharge penalty (or rather, the lack of an issue) is that recharge modifiers are affected by diminished returns.

Essentially, if you get your cooldown bonus high enough there comes a point when adding more doesn't make a noticeable difference.

The difference between 200% recharge and 150% might only be 1/10 second, depending on the base cooldown of the power. Factor in not being able to queue powers, lag, and combat situations that don't allow you to spam powers 24/7..... and excess cooldown bonuses are largely wasted.


Is there an explanation for how that works?  It seems like a change from 150% to 200% should be the same as from 0% to 50%.

In any case, I think the result here is that if you are using a weapon with your sentinal that give 200% ercharge or close to it, then tech armor is probably worhtwhile.  If you want something heavier for whatever reason, then consider that the heaver your weapon is, the worse the TA penalty becomes, eventually reaching a point where it's better to skip it entierly.


Exactly my my point, with the exception that if you want to focus entirely on DR with a Krogan (and even a certain Turian build) then you can make something that doesn't even rely on cooldowns.

Not sure on the exact math of the dimishing returns, but it's definitely there.  I've gone back and forth over the recharge bonuses and effects on my powers, and you can see it.

I think that 200% just looks too pretty for people to pass up.... and others make a much bigger deal out of 1/10 second less cooldown than others.


The other highlight of this is that even with other power-heavy classes (Asari Adept), you don't NEED to have that 200% cooldown.  Experiment a little.  Take that Mattock or lower-level Carnifex and tear it up!
My bet is that as long as you keep your cooldown bonus above 150%, you won't notice much difference in your ability to spam powers.... and you'll have a much better weapon as a result. :)

#74
Ravennus

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Crimzoneyed wrote...

Geist.H wrote...

TS can trigger both, where is the problem ?


You can't make your own explosion.


Say it with me....... TEAMWORK   ;)

#75
RamsenC

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Ravennus wrote...

Crimzoneyed wrote...

Geist.H wrote...

TS can trigger both, where is the problem ?


You can't make your own explosion.


Say it with me....... TEAMWORK   ;)


Agreed :o

Turian Sent with teamwork > Human Sent. Hang out with a Drell Adept. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 30 mars 2012 - 10:40 .