373 réponses à ce sujet

[Geist.H]

Well if Kenaras' formula is right and TA damage reduction > fitness 6 in term of global health/shielding, with the cooldowns staying the same, or almost the same (2,5 seconds.) with TA on and a good faithful Mattock X, I wonder what people are going to invent to tell me that ignoring TA is the right choice... Phew.

[RonnyB]

I don't know if this has been posted yet but here's my build that works wonders.
Use a respec card and get rid of that pesky tech armor.

Overload: Full chain and go with recharge instead of incapacitate.

Warp: Full biotic explosion / armor debuff (this way you can help setup explosions with adepts on your team.

Fitness: Full fitness with shield and recharge

Turian Veteran: I went with full weapon damage except the headshot bonus where I went with power increase.

Give him a Geth Plasma Shotgun with damage and capacity mods. He's a damn terminator just walking through maps destroying everything. Trick is charge GPS and hit overload and immediately release trigger. Rinse and repeat.

[Geist.H]

I don't know if this has been posted yet but here's my build that works wonders.
Use a respec card and get rid of that pesky tech armor.

Overload: Full chain and go with recharge instead of incapacitate.

Warp: Full biotic explosion / armor debuff (this way you can help setup explosions with adepts on your team.

Fitness: Full fitness with shield and recharge

Turian Veteran: I went with full weapon damage except the headshot bonus where I went with power increase.

No, TA > fitness 6, read the thread. Thank you ! GPS is cool though, but the mattock is more reliable I find.

Well, his point was actually that the TA gives you more durability. So he was trying to prove you right. But it doesn't fit your build, because his numbers rely on Fitness 4 (if I'm reading them right, again). I believe with Fitness 3 it actually comes out to 892.85 effective health and 1339.29 effective shields, using his formula. Which is still more, however I'm not so practiced a theorycrafter to say absolutely this is how the bonuses are applied in the game. It's how I would assume it works, and how I would do it if someone asked me, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Well, if I take my Turian's base health and shield with Fitness 3 (625 and 938) and add 30% on top, it gives 812,5 and 1219,4, which correlates with what I experience ingame = close to identical level of tankiness with fitness 6.

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 11:25 .

[killacwalka3]

Geist.H wrote...
No, TA > fitness 6, read the thread. Thank you ! GPS is cool though, but the mattock is more reliable I find.

Only for survivability and burst DPS, it hurts you for support and crowd control though because you are having to wait almost half a second longer each time to get your powers off. That is roughly 80 fewer potential casts per 20 minute match.

Modifié par killacwalka3, 30 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Geist.H]

Except the cooldown remains identical wether or not you use TA using this build. I can spec OUT of TA, check the CD then spec IN again, it's still the same.

Edit: Mattock only, I dont play TS with the GPS, but could see it being a valid choice.

Modifié par Geist.H, 30 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[Donzilla_]

killacwalka3 wrote...

Geist.H wrote...
No, TA > fitness 6, read the thread. Thank you ! GPS is cool though, but the mattock is more reliable I find.

Only for survivability and burst DPS, it hurts you for support and crowd control though because you are having to wait almost half a second longer each time to get your powers off.

Even more than that, becasue geth plasma shotgun is higher base weight then mattock, plus doesn't get the -30% AR weight bonus.  If you use a GPS you will probably add a second or more to your CD if TA is active.

Like I said earlier, the maxed tech armor route is only best for people at or near 200% recharge speed.

Modifié par Donzilla_, 30 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[Kenaras]

Geist.H wrote...

And somehow "fitness is better..." I see a 1,4 multiplier in your Tech Armor formula however, the builds requires to spec it only for 30% damage reduction. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding it, I'm not the math-type.

Bah, I did make a mistake.  The 1000/1500 numbers are for rank 4 Fitness, not rank 3.  (A 6/6/6/4/4 build or something similar.)  Edited with the correct numbers.

[killacwalka3]

Geist.H wrote...

Except the cooldown remains identical wether or not you use TA using this build. I can spec OUT of TA, check the CD then spec IN again, it's still the same.

TA's multiplier is a direct multiplier on the effective cooldown. The number isn't stored anywhere. It will not show up on any screen. It has no bearing on weight. You have to time it or do the math to see the difference. The difference is around .3 seconds on overload if spec for max speed. I tried your loadout and tested it by looking at the timestamp on captured footage. There is a difference, what you have been saying about no change most of this thread is false.

[Kenaras]

Geist.H wrote...

Well, if I take my Turian's base health and shield with Fitness 3 (625 and 938) and add 30% on top, it gives 812,5 and 1219,4, which correlates with what I experience ingame = close to identical level of tankiness with fitness 6.

The right way to do it is actually to divide.  So instead of 625*(1+0.3), it's 625/(1-0.3).  That gives 893 and 1339.  The higher your damage reduction is, the more noticable the difference becomes.

To understand why this is, imagine you have 100% damage reduction.  That's equivalent to having infinite health and shields (divide by zero), not double health and shields (multiply by two).

Modifié par Kenaras, 30 mars 2012 - 11:39 .

[J717]

So, really quickly; what then is everyone's preferred build for good ALL AROUND dps + health/shields between the below builds:

6/5/6/6/3
6/6/5/6/3
6/6/6/4/4
6/6/6/5/3
6/3/6/5/6

?

Modifié par J717, 30 mars 2012 - 11:45 .

[RamsenC]

Geist.H wrote...

Except the cooldown remains identical wether or not you use TA using this build. I can spec OUT of TA, check the CD then spec IN again, it's still the same.

Edit: Mattock only, I dont play TS with the GPS, but could see it being a valid choice.

The problem is your basing your build on using a sub-par weapon. Sure the mattock isn't complete ass, but it's hardly in the top 10 of weapons.

Modifié par RamsenC, 30 mars 2012 - 11:46 .

[AndanteInBlue]

It's hard to follow who's arguing about what, so I did some quick tests on the effects of TA and weapon weight on recharge speed. It backs up Kenaras' results:

TS setup: 50% recharge on TA, all weight reduction from Turian Veteran

Phaeston 3 (174% recharge)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.68
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.9
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.35

Vindicator 5 (200% recharge)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.46
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.55
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.0

Avenger 6 (200% recharge, but lighter than Vindicator)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.46
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.6
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.0

Shuriken 9 with Ultralight 1 (200% recharge, lightest weapon)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.46
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.55
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.0

So as far as I can tell, TA will always increase your CD time. Equipping a weapon lighter than the 200% threshold gains no benefit (through TA or without).

Modifié par AndanteInBlue, 30 mars 2012 - 11:48 .

[TSCIGAR]

Geist.H wrote...

I don't know if this has been posted yet but here's my build that works wonders.
Use a respec card and get rid of that pesky tech armor.

Overload: Full chain and go with recharge instead of incapacitate.

Warp: Full biotic explosion / armor debuff (this way you can help setup explosions with adepts on your team.

Fitness: Full fitness with shield and recharge

Turian Veteran: I went with full weapon damage except the headshot bonus where I went with power increase.

No, TA > fitness 6, read the thread. Thank you ! GPS is cool though, but the mattock is more reliable I find.

Well, his point was actually that the TA gives you more durability. So he was trying to prove you right. But it doesn't fit your build, because his numbers rely on Fitness 4 (if I'm reading them right, again). I believe with Fitness 3 it actually comes out to 892.85 effective health and 1339.29 effective shields, using his formula. Which is still more, however I'm not so practiced a theorycrafter to say absolutely this is how the bonuses are applied in the game. It's how I would assume it works, and how I would do it if someone asked me, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Well, if I take my Turian's base health and shield with Fitness 3 (625 and 938) and add 30% on top, it gives 812,5 and 1219,4, which correlates with what I experience ingame = close to identical level of tankiness with fitness 6.

Your method is (probably) a bit screwed up there. I assume DR applies to damage done to you, decreasing it before it's actually applied; it's not an actual 30% increase to health and shields. Even if it were, I'm sure it would be applied to the base number, not to the amount modified by fitness, which would put you at 775 for health and 1162.5 for shields; I'd figure this because all other similar bonuses in the game are applied additively. We're talking effective hp/shields here- how much damage each can actually take before going away. It's a bit different, and is what makes DR so nice.

Now that Kenaras has updated his post, his and my numbers match (except he's got that high-falutin' rounding going on): 893 hp and 1339 shields. These are bigger numbers anyway, so it works in your favor.
 
(edited to clarify pronoun "he" in the last paragraph referenced Kenaras. Credit where credit is due, and all that)

Modifié par TSCIGAR, 31 mars 2012 - 12:06 .

[TSCIGAR]

J717 wrote...

So, really quickly; what then is everyone's preferred build for good ALL AROUND dps + health/shields between the below builds:

6/5/6/6/3
6/6/5/6/3
6/6/6/4/4
6/6/6/5/3
6/3/6/5/6

?

I haven't crunched the numbers, so I can't tell you where mine falls in terms of best DPS/Tank, but it's not on there. I go 6/6/4/6/4. I find incapacitate doesn't really make a difference, and the second chain to be superfluous for my playstyle, so I decided to allocate those points elsewhere. Probably suffers a bit because tech bursts set up by OL aren't as strong, but if possible I prefer to detonate other people's bursts anyways.

EDIT: And of course I'm not doing damage to a third target at all, and I'm not getting the damage bonus from the 6th evolution. So that's a decrease right there. And I have something like a 3.5 second cooldown, which frankly I've barely noticed in practice.

Modifié par TSCIGAR, 31 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[Geist.H]

It's hard to follow who's arguing about what, so I did some quick tests on the effects of TA and weapon weight on recharge speed. It backs up Kenaras' results:

TS setup: 50% recharge on TA, all weight reduction from Turian Veteran

Phaeston 3 (174% recharge)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.68
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.9
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.35

Vindicator 5 (200% recharge)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.46
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.55
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.0

Avenger 6 (200% recharge, but lighter than Vindicator)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.46
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.6
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.0

Shuriken 9 with Ultralight 1 (200% recharge, lightest weapon)
Overload CD (on sheet): 2.46
Overload CD without TA (stopwatch): 2.55
Overload CD with TA (stopwatch): 3.0

So as far as I can tell, TA will always increase your CD time. Equipping a weapon lighter than the 200% threshold gains no benefit (through TA or without).

Good ! So things are settled now, wish it happened sooner. Now what we need is to do the same about fitness and TA damage reduction. If people can get around their head that a 0,30 second cooldown increase does not make a skill "useless", it's all that matters to me.

The problem is your basing your build on using a sub-par weapon. Sure the mattock isn't complete ass, but it's hardly in the top 10 of weapons.

Can you extrapolate a bit ? What weapon are you using, why is it better ? I don't care about being right or wrong at 100%, I just want people to backup their posts, to be constructive, if arguing until someone comes by and proves me or a detractor right, it's for the better.

Modifié par Geist.H, 31 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[killacwalka3]

TSCIGAR wrote...

I haven't crunched the numbers, so I can't tell you where mine falls in terms of best DPS/Tank, but it's not on there. I go 6/6/4/6/4. I find incapacitate doesn't really make a difference, and the second chain to be superfluous for my playstyle, so I decided to allocate those points elsewhere. Probably suffers a bit because tech bursts set up by OL aren't as strong, but if possible I prefer to detonate other people's bursts anyways.

I don't think overload works as a tech detonator, just a cryo and flame detonator.

[Geist.H]

I don't think overload works as a tech detonator, just a cryo and flame detonator.

It did proc Tech Burst/Fire Explosion and Cryo Blast for me, but you need a killing blow I think.

[killacwalka3]

One point I will make is tech armor is much less useful for a human, because they can trigger their own explosions. This means they gain more from the ability to spam powers. Also, the damage reduction is not as effective because you have lower health and shields.

Another strategy is to play a turian sentinel with a heavier weapon and stunning chain overload with no warp. Higher survivability, good crowd control, and high weapon dps. Works well in groups without other biotics to source or detonate.

[screamin_jesus]

I've experimented today, and found another really nice all around build:
6/6/6/4/4

Tech armor with duration, power bonus, and recharge speed
Overload with chain, recharge speed, and shield dmg
Warp with detonate, expose, and pierce.
Turian Veteran with damage and capacity
4 in fitness

This gives you good survivability, and you get full overload, warp, and tech armor. Even without a lot in turian veteran I still have ~191% cooldown bonus and good power/weapon damage.

I just really didn't want to give up fill overload or warp. The last overload perk (shield damage) is just too useful, and having warped maxed is good for biotic explosions (as well as having pierce, useful for taking down the big enemies like prime and atlas. I have good crowd control and good single target damage.

As mentioned, this is a super versatile class with many good builds.

I am loling at all the tech armor ignorance though, theres really a negiligible difference in cooldown if you spec for 30% reduction and have 180-200% bonus. Sure no tech armor can work fine, but tech armor works great too.

Modifié par screamin_jesus, 31 mars 2012 - 12:25 .

[RamsenC]

Can you extrapolate a bit ? What weapon are you using, why is it better ? I don't care about being right or wrong at 100%, I just want people to backup their posts, to be constructive, if arguing until someone comes by and proves me or a detractor right, it's for the better.

Well I mentioned that falcon earlier if you remember. Falcon turns Turian Sent into the best CC class, but still has strong single target damage potential with a biotic partner. I wouldn't use anything else on Turian Sent, but weapons better than the mattock is a long list and not worth typing out. 

[TSCIGAR]

killacwalka3 wrote...

TSCIGAR wrote...

I haven't crunched the numbers, so I can't tell you where mine falls in terms of best DPS/Tank, but it's not on there. I go 6/6/4/6/4. I find incapacitate doesn't really make a difference, and the second chain to be superfluous for my playstyle, so I decided to allocate those points elsewhere. Probably suffers a bit because tech bursts set up by OL aren't as strong, but if possible I prefer to detonate other people's bursts anyways.

I don't think overload works as a tech detonator, just a cryo and flame detonator.

It certainly does. It just doesn't detonate itself. Two overloads won't detonate- but an energy drain followed by an overload will (and vice versa). Tech combos are detonated by ANY power that does direct damage. So I detonate other people's tech combos with warp- level 6, and (hopefully) the combo bonus.

Geist.H wrote...

I don't think overload works as a tech detonator, just a cryo and flame detonator.

It did proc Tech Burst/Fire Explosion and Cryo Blast for me, but you need a killing blow I think.

You need a killing blow for Fire/Cryo. You do not for tech. If you've never tooled around a map as part of a HE/SAnything team, dropping ED and OL, then you're missing out. It's a blast.

Modifié par TSCIGAR, 31 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[screamin_jesus]

RamsenC wrote...

Can you extrapolate a bit ? What weapon are you using, why is it better ? I don't care about being right or wrong at 100%, I just want people to backup their posts, to be constructive, if arguing until someone comes by and proves me or a detractor right, it's for the better.

Well I mentioned that falcon earlier if you remember. Falcon turns Turian Sent into the best CC class, but still has strong single target damage potential with a biotic partner. I wouldn't use anything else on Turian Sent, but weapons better than the mattock is a long list and not worth typing out. 

A high level mattock is a really solid weapon, and turian sent already has good cc with overload. I'm not a fan of the falcon at all right now, its too buggy unless your host. Only class I use it with is my krogan sentinel.

[Donzilla_]

Here's a nice graph

http://www.wolframal...+.25) for 0<x<2

The y axis shows the 50% cooldown penalty from using tech armor in seconds, the x axis is weapon weight. x=2 means 200% cooldown reduction from weapons, x=1 means 100% cooldown reduction, etc.

Of course, keep in mind you also get 20% power damage and 30% damage reduction. I like to go with a shotgun or sniper as my only weapon, so the penalty from TA is larger.

Modifié par Donzilla_, 31 mars 2012 - 12:27 .

[TSCIGAR]

Donzilla_ wrote...

Here's a nice graph

http://www.wolframal...+.25) for 0<x<2

The y axis shows the 50% cooldown penalty from using tech armor in seconds, the x axis is weapon weight. x=2 means 200% cooldown reduction from weapons, x=1 means 100% cooldown reduction, etc.

Of course, keep in mind you also get 20% power damage and 30% damage reduction. I like to go with a shotgun or sniper as my only weapon, so the penalty from TA is larger.

Great graph, Donzilla. Thanks!

[Geist.H]

A high level mattock is a really solid weapon, and turian sent already has good cc with overload. I'm not a fan of the falcon at all right now, its too buggy unless your host. Only class I use it with is my krogan sentinel.

Tested it and it is indeed very good so I will add it later.  It's the best option for teamwork without hestitation.

Here's a nice graph

http://www.wolframal...+.25) for 0<x<2

The y axis shows the 50% cooldown penalty from using tech armor in seconds, the x axis is weapon weight. x=2 means 200% cooldown reduction from weapons, x=1 means 100% cooldown reduction, etc.

Of course, keep in mind you also get 20% power damage and 30% damage reduction. I like to go with a shotgun or sniper as my only weapon, so the penalty from TA is larger.

I will drop the try-hard towel for tonight and update the thread tomorrow.. errr.. well today.

Edit: Updated.

Modifié par Geist.H, 31 mars 2012 - 01:24 .