80 réponses à ce sujet

[I_Jedi]

ManiacalShen wrote...

I actually get why the Catalyst didn't just activate the Citadel himself in ME1. At least, it makes sense in my head.

Think of him like the Reapers' deity. He's there to direct, to guide, but he doesn't do things FOR them. If he needs to hold their hand (tentacle?) in order for them to succeed, then they, as a solution, have already started to fail. This interpretation is consistent with his statement that Shepard appearing in front of him is a sign that things are set to change, and that a new solution must be found. He's clearly open to the idea.

That's about all I can answer for you, though.

The Reapers should take a class in efficiency.

[EnforcerWRX7]

I believe the answer is speculation.


Actually, the ending is completely non-sensical. Shepard was dying on the floor near the control switch. The whole game was essentially over.

Then space brat brings him up on a magic elevator to tell him he can jump into the machine to do God knows what with his God machine.  Total Dues Ex. 

Magic elevator? Star child? The whole ending is a broken promise.

Modifié par EnforcerWRX7, 30 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[Bomma72]

count_4 wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...
Spacebrat says that since Shepard has reached, err...him

Well, actually Spacebrat elevator'd Shepard up there. Shepard didn't even reach anything. Which makes the "you bein g here means the solution is no longer valid" even more absurd.

This, how did Shepard get up there?  Spacebrat brought him there.  Makes no sense.  Why didn't he just let Shapard die.

[EnforcerWRX7]

Bomma72 wrote...

count_4 wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...
Spacebrat says that since Shepard has reached, err...him

Well, actually Spacebrat elevator'd Shepard up there. Shepard didn't even reach anything. Which makes the "you bein g here means the solution is no longer valid" even more absurd.

This, how did Shepard get up there?  Spacebrat brought him there.  Makes no sense.  Why didn't he just let Shapard die.

I believe there is a TV trope for that but I'm too lazy to look for it.

Been saying it all along..the ending makes no sense even if you LIKE the space magic.

[liggy002]

No, this was all set up and was a dream. If those 3 options were part of the crucible, then that would mean that the races building it had it in mind for someone to fuse with the Reapers or control them. No way, they would only choose destroy. Therefore, when building the crucible, they only built the destroy part. Control and synthesis are not a victory but a set up by the Reapers.

Modifié par liggy002, 30 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[Sokroc04]

IsaacShep wrote...

Sokroc04 wrote...

cachx wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

No, the Crucible changed the Catalyst. He says it loud and clear.

This, pretty much, the 3 choices are provided by the crucible, not the kid.

I don't expect anybody to care, so please resume the bashing, thank you.

So it was DESIGNED for someone to choose? Really? The catalyst was just indoctrinated by the crucible, which needed a third party to physically operate it, by way of suicide?

No. The Crucible is designed to release tons of energy. The Catalyst - the Citadel, is responsible for focusing and directing the energy. It wasn't DESIGNED for Control, but the nature of the Citadel makes it possible to turn the energy to "control" mode instead of "destruction" mode. Having Control and Synthesis options is a by product of the Crucible and Citadel's construction and capabilities.

What nature of the citadel? I refuse to believe that the damn thing is anything but a space station. Starchild is just the intergalactic equivalent of The Fonz, living in galactic society's collective garage loft. Nobody wants him there, but every time he speaks, we've got nothing to say in return.

If the crucible was just a crude energy source, then how is it even possible to render its power any sort of intricate form? Particularly one that can change every single being into a bio-mechanical hybrid with only the addition of one cybernetically altered man.

Or if it is just a battery, why then was the citadel not capable of widespread control of it's reapers without it?

Urgh... we shouldn't even HAVE to speculate. All this bickering is distracting us from where our attention should be pointed.

We invested in your company, and you simply snuck up and teabagged us all, Bioware!

[Delta_V2]

IsaacShep wrote...

No. The Crucible is designed to release tons of energy. The Catalyst - the Citadel, is responsible for focusing and directing the energy. It wasn't DESIGNED for Control, but the nature of the Citadel makes it possible to turn the energy to "control" mode instead of "destruction" mode. Having Control and Synthesis options is a by product of the Crucible and Citadel's construction and capabilities.

Yeah, I don't think the Crucible was ever intended for Control or Synthesis, those were just alternate ways the starchild found to use the Crucible.  Of course, I have no idea why using it for its intended purpose (Destroy) involved shooting the tube.  You'd expect there to be a button or something.

I don't really get how the Crucible was supposed to change the Catalyst, though.  If he's some sort of AI, you wouldn't think plugging in a new piece of hardware would fundamentally change what is there.  Giving him new options is one thing, but you'd think he'd be able to just not use it if he didn't  want to.

[Bojan1es]

Well.. if Casper the friendly ghost can make it so Shep can breath in space.. anything is possible right?

[Arisugawa]

XRelakX wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

No, the Crucible changed the Catalyst. He says it loud and clear.

^This.OP Before posting at least run the ending that you hate so much at least 4 times so you can know what he actually says.

(credit to byne for posting these images earlier)

Except that the Control/Destroy mechanims are on the Citadel, not the Crucible.


On the back of the Citadel Tower, in fact.


And apparently, easily visible on the underneath exterior of the Tower for anyone who cared to investigate the Tower's exterior.

So...how does destroying a conduit that previously existed, or taking hold of mechanims on a second conduit that previously existed, equate to the Catalyst being altered by the Crucible?

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 03:49 .

[shepskisaac]

Arisugawa wrote...

Except that the Control/Destroy mechanims are on the Citadel, not the Crucible.
 

On the back of the Citadel Tower, in fact.


And apparently, easily visible on the underneath exterior of the Tower for anyone who cared to investigate the Tower's exterior.

So...how does destroying a conduit that previously existed, or taking hold of mechanims on a second conduit that previously existed, equate to the Catalyst being altered by the Crucible?

but the Crucible is physically connected to the Citadel. FOrgot about the 4 arms that are used to attatch it? Shooting the tube or taking control switches only initiates the reaction that is possible because of existing connection

[Siansonea]

I actually don't have a problem with the apparatus on the Citadel, that's the least of my quibbles with the ending. Maybe it originally served some other purpose, or the Keepers automatically reconfigure it for the Crucible because the Crucible is an accessory specifically made to dock to the Citadel. I can handwave that.

But nothing Catalyst says makes a lick of sense. You can't tell me that there aren't better ways of keeping synthetics from exterminating organics, and it's absurd that SYNTHETICS would be trying to stop that. Now granted, the Reapers are organic/synthetic hybrids, but still. The Synthesis ending is the most problematic for me, since of course, the Reapers are already a synthesis of organic and synthetic, so I don't see how the Green Beam Of Genetic Rewrite can really give them a change of heart. And I don't see how settling the problem of contentious diversity by eliminating diversity sends the right message. Hey, let's all give up our uniqueness, THAT will make us come together. Shepard essentially creates a galaxy-wide Borg-like race.

And what happens to the worlds that aren't adjacent to mass relays? What happens when species on those planets evolve, achieve FTL, and discover the galactic community? What happens when those species create homicidal AI (because apparently there's no other kind of AI possible)? All Shepard did was unite the people on the galactic subway system.

And of course the mechanism whereby that is accomplished is STUPID. Every cell in your body has its genetic code rewritten, instantly, and ... you're pretty much okay? Really, it's more like a tech equivalent of chemical warfare than anything else. Who thought this made sense? And furthermore, who decided that this destruction of all life as we know it was the "ideal" ending?

Oh, and then there's the matter of the other galaxies in our little local group. One of them, Andromeda, is on a collision course with the Milky Way, and it'll be here in only 4.5 billion years or so. Certainly, the Andromeda Galaxy has its own organics and synthetics and whatnot, and who's to say that those races won't pose a threat to the Milky Way Collective? Catalyst may think he's staved off "chaos" for good, but that just goes to show how stupid he is. Chaos will ultimately prevail regardless, as anyone who knows the first thing about entropy will tell you.

And who are the Reapers to impose their version of "order" anyway? And why doesn't Shepard ASK CATALYST THAT?

[Arisugawa]

IsaacShep wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...

Except that the Control/Destroy mechanims are on the Citadel, not the Crucible.
 

On the back of the Citadel Tower, in fact.


And apparently, easily visible on the underneath exterior of the Tower for anyone who cared to investigate the Tower's exterior.

So...how does destroying a conduit that previously existed, or taking hold of mechanims on a second conduit that previously existed, equate to the Catalyst being altered by the Crucible?

but the Crucible is physically connected to the Citadel. FOrgot about the 4 arms that are used to attatch it? Shooting the tube or taking control switches only initiates the reaction that is possible because of existing connection

I'm not forgetting about the arms attaching the Crucible to the Presidium, now. I'm merely saying that the act of Control seems to be tied to taking hold of the mechanisms on the left conduit, and the act of Destruction is tied to destroying the conduit on the right.

So...what is the fundamental difference between doing these things with or without the consent of the Starchild? What exactly has connecting the Crucible to the Presidium done that is going to alter the basic purpose of these mechanisms that existed prior to the construction of the Crucible. How does the connection of the Crucible "alter" the Catalyst?

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[Ender99]

:wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

[Singu]

The Catalyst(the citadel for purposes of function) used to be responsible to ferry in reapers from intergalactic dark space at the start of a new "reaping" of a cycle's advanced organics.

The Crucible was a relay effort between these cycles that acknowledged the the uniquely potent power source of the Citadel was the only source of power that could weaponize the .... space magic of the Crucible ... so that it could be beamed to the Relay's with sufficient force to effect the reapers in the entire galaxy.

So, pre-crucible: Catalyst(citadel) had a purpose as a ferryman. Post-crucible it works as an offencive weapon, it has been given a new form and potential purpose. The Catalyst, being the senile old VI of the Reaper creator, does not have the programming to use this new function of itself(Catalyst/Citadel). This is where Shepard comes in, and he has to jump, grab or shoot his way to glory.

Pretty daft, but also probably made a whole lot of sense to the person(s) that wrote it.

[Joykilledme]

count_4 wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...
Spacebrat says that since Shepard has reached, err...him

Well, actually Spacebrat elevator'd Shepard up there. Shepard didn't even reach anything. Which makes the "you bein g here means the solution is no longer valid" even more absurd.

Haha So very true!

[Xandax]

Singu wrote...

<snip>

Pretty daft, but also probably made a whole lot of sense to the person(s) that wrote it.

And that's why drugs are bad kids, mmmm'kay.

[Arisugawa]

Singu wrote...

The Catalyst(the citadel for purposes of function) used to be responsible to ferry in reapers from intergalactic dark space at the start of a new "reaping" of a cycle's advanced organics.

The Crucible was a relay effort between these cycles that acknowledged the the uniquely potent power source of the Citadel was the only source of power that could weaponize the .... space magic of the Crucible ... so that it could be beamed to the Relay's with sufficient force to effect the reapers in the entire galaxy.

So, pre-crucible: Catalyst(citadel) had a purpose as a ferryman. Post-crucible it works as an offencive weapon, it has been given a new form and potential purpose. The Catalyst, being the senile old VI of the Reaper creator, does not have the programming to use this new function of itself(Catalyst/Citadel). This is where Shepard comes in, and he has to jump, grab or shoot his way to glory.

Pretty daft, but also probably made a whole lot of sense to the person(s) that wrote it.

This doesn't track for me.

It essentially means that over the countless Cycles that the Crucible was developed, the designers took in mind that not only that they had to build this massive device, but that someone was going to have to go the EXTERIOR of the Citadel tower and either destroy one of two conduits, or physically connect themselves to the other conduit, so that the Crucible has any use. Otherwise, it just sits there doing nothing. Nothing the Catalyst/Starchild does in the scene with Shepard appears to initiate or change this very focal means of use.

And I still don't see how this has "altered" the Catalyst. All this explanation does is say the Crucible can act as a funnel and focus for energy the Citadel already possessed. We knew this part already. If the Catalyst has been altered, that means the whatever intelligence is in the Citadel has been fundamentally changed somehow. There doesn't seem to be any reason for this - I can't see the docking clamps on the four arms connecting the Presidium to the Crucible accomplishing this.

So...again...the question remains, how is the Catalyst changed by the connection of the Crucible, and why wouldn't the Crucible have worked on its own without the Starchild's presence?

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 04:19 .

[Singu]

Obviously the creators of the Reapers didn't design the Citadel to destroy the reapers. The way I read the Starchilds comment about the Crucible having changed him is that he realizes that he is now a weapon or a tool that was outside of his original design. It works, but he won't push the "button".

Going down into the bolts and cog's of the makebelieve science behind what the Crucible "does" to the Citadel is obviously beyond me, you and everyone else who've played the game. But we know it changed it - and apparently, so does the Catalyst. Which I guess is good for him since he should know what's happening to his own property and the potential function of it.

I'm not saying it's clever or good writing, but that's what I personally interpret with what the Starchild is saying. And for the finer details you would have to pick the lead writers brain I'm afraid.

Edit: Ideally you would have a big remote on the Excelsior or whatever, with three big buttons for Shepard to push. But I guess the designs of the Crucible wheren't 100%, it did the job as far as function went. But lacked the executive tool to fire the completed weapon

Modifié par Singu, 30 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[emp6]

Catalysts solution would have worked out perfectly if he didn't send the white elevator thing to take Shepard from the control room to the top of the Crucible...

[shepskisaac]

Arisugawa wrote...

So...what is the fundamental difference between doing these things with or without the consent of the Starchild? What exactly has connecting the Crucible to the Presidium done that is going to alter the basic purpose of these mechanisms that existed prior to the construction of the Crucible. How does the connection of the Crucible "alter" the Catalyst?

Since the Crucible connects to Citadel's systems, then it connects to the StarChild as well. I mean, seems rather obvious to me?

[Mr.House]

I just find it funny that to kill all the Reapers all you need to do is shoot a tube.

[Esoretal]

Right? I mean, if anything, your options are to A) electrocute yourself, throw yourself into the Crucible's beam, and C) destroy a power conduit. If anything, it looks like sabotage.

[Singu]

emp6 wrote...

Catalysts solution would have worked out perfectly if he didn't send the white elevator thing to take Shepard from the control room to the top of the Crucible...

Yeah, he might not be willing to push the button. But he sure is willing to erect a mass effect field so Shepard can breathe, and ferry her up with the glowing elevator.

Mr.House wrote...

I just find it funny that to kill all the Reapers all you need to do is shoot a tube.

The indoctrination fans have probably pointed out that this is because the only time Shepard singlehandedly killed a reaper with her own firearms was by shooting out the feeder tubes to the human reaper on the Collector base. They do look kind of similar. And was all a product of her own indoctrinated mind making sense to it.

Modifié par Singu, 30 mars 2012 - 04:40 .

[Arisugawa]

Singu wrote...

Obviously the creators of the Reapers didn't design the Citadel to destroy the reapers. The way I read the Starchilds comment about the Crucible having changed him is that he realizes that he is now a weapon or a tool that was outside of his original design. It works, but he won't push the "button".

Going down into the bolts and cog's of the makebelieve science behind what the Crucible "does" to the Citadel is obviously beyond me, you and everyone else who've played the game. But we know it changed it - and apparently, so does the Catalyst. Which I guess is good for him since he should know what's happening to his own property and the potential function of it.

I'm not saying it's clever or good writing, but that's what I personally interpret with what the Starchild is saying. And for the finer details you would have to pick the lead writers brain I'm afraid.

But even that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst won't "push the button" as you say, why talk to Shepard at all? If Shepard is truly bleeding out in that scene, remaining silent will cause Shepard to die or pass out from lack of blood in a handful of minutes. If Shepard cannot figure out what to do, the Reapers will inevitably destroy the Crucible. The battle in space and on the ground is being won by the Catalyst's Reapers, so...why does it believe that its solution will no longer work? Simply because Shepard is there, and that the device was built? Winning the battle for this Cycle presents the Catalyst, and thus the Reapers, with a plethora of options to prevent the same thing from happening in the next Cycle as the advanced organics have now played their hand.

Prothean Beacons or Liara's capsules become meaningless because the Catalyst and the Reapers now know what it is and that the organics would try to build another. Any number of redesigns to the Citadel could take place prior to the return to Dark Space that would prevent a second Crucible from working in the future.

So if the change the Catalyst has undergone is simply a realization that the Citadel's energy can suddenly be turned against its forces, why make Shepard aware of this at all? It doesn't need to. Its solution will still work provided Shepard dies or the Crucible is destroyed.

[Arisugawa]

IsaacShep wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...

So...what is the fundamental difference between doing these things with or without the consent of the Starchild? What exactly has connecting the Crucible to the Presidium done that is going to alter the basic purpose of these mechanisms that existed prior to the construction of the Crucible. How does the connection of the Crucible "alter" the Catalyst?

Since the Crucible connects to Citadel's systems, then it connects to the StarChild as well. I mean, seems rather obvious to me?

Is it connected the Citadel's systems? How? Merely by the docking clamps? And if it is connected to the Citadel's systems, why does Shepard need to do anything else? Couldn't the Citadel be commanded to release its energy? Why is shooting a conduit, or grasping handgrips, necessary to do it?