80 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...

I just find it funny that to kill all the Reapers all you need to do is shoot a tube.

But you have to get really close to it.

[jumpingkaede]

The Catalyst says the Crucible changed him. That is fact.

The Catalyst does not say how/why/where/what the Crucible changed (him). That is LOTS OF SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE.

[Straw_foot]

Am I the only one that was expecting to open this and the OP just be that meme of that dude?

"Yo Dawg, I heard you don't wana get killed by synthetics..."

Modifié par Straw_foot, 30 mars 2012 - 04:41 .

[WYLDMAXX]

During the construction of the crucible, one the engineers left a copy of the Matrix Revolutions inside one the terminals that is used for boot up sequence. (Got to test those alien video drivers) So when it interfaced with the Catalyst, it used that movie as part of the OS by accident.

[Daedalus1773]

shinobi602 wrote...

Spacebrat says that since Shepard has reached, err...him, the situation is thus changed and there are "new" solutions" (control, destroy, synthesis) and Shepard being there "changed him" right? If they're "new", why the hell are they already there in place magically on the Citadel if they weren't there from the beginning?

Was spacekid expecting someone to reach them eventually over the course of time? Or did he just...start building them somehow during the game? Was he getting tired of controlling the Reapers for millions of years and felt like it was someone else's turn, so he built some...things...for someone else so that person can control them?

The option to destroy the Reapers was there in some...generator thing. When did he build that? Was it there from the very beginning of the reaping cycles? If so, why even build it if from the beginning if spacepunk "knew" that synthetics and organics will never coexist peacefully forever and "always" rebel?

When did he build the synthesis beam? Why didn't he just use it from the very beginning and merge organics and synthetics ages ago and save everyone the trouble?

Hell, why the heck were those 3 options there anyway if they all needed the Crucible device to function? Spacebrat built them a long time ago anticipating that, well, "eventually some species are going to get around to built some kind of device thing that can utilize these 3 options!"?

WHERE THE HELL AM I!???

Just watch this. 
 

[Singu]

Arisugawa wrote...

But even that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst won't "push the button" as you say, why talk to Shepard at all? If Shepard is truly bleeding out in that scene, remaining silent will cause Shepard to die or pass out from lack of blood in a handful of minutes. If Shepard cannot figure out what to do, the Reapers will inevitably destroy the Crucible. The battle in space and on the ground is being won by the Catalyst's Reapers, so...why does it believe that its solution will no longer work? Simply because Shepard is there, and that the device was built? Winning the battle for this Cycle presents the Catalyst, and thus the Reapers, with a plethora of options to prevent the same thing from happening in the next Cycle as the advanced organics have now played their hand.

Prothean Beacons or Liara's capsules become meaningless because the Catalyst and the Reapers now know what it is and that the organics would try to build another. Any number of redesigns to the Citadel could take place prior to the return to Dark Space that would prevent a second Crucible from working in the future.

So if the change the Catalyst has undergone is simply a realization that the Citadel's energy can suddenly be turned against its forces, why make Shepard aware of this at all? It doesn't need to. Its solution will still work provided Shepard dies or the Crucible is destroyed.

First of all, I don't think Reaper intelligence on Alliance movements and plans are all that. It seems TiM was the one who reminded them about the Citadel floating about on it's own with their own personal Jesus stuck on it.

Second of all, the Catalyst is clearly bored and maybe a bit suicidal. But for some reason he can't do the final job of killing himself(or whatever gender you would use on a thing like the Starchild). I think the writer(s) went for the mystical deity routine in making his ways mysterious and unfathomable, in the hope that not all the plotholes would drown the player in the goo of inconsistencies at the same time. And instead hoped that it would spawn discussions like this one. Which I have to say that my own contribution is flimsical at best, since I'm trying to make sense out of something that I loathe and despise to begin with.

Modifié par Singu, 30 mars 2012 - 04:48 .

[Fenrisfil]

Okay, so the ending makes no real sense, was poorly thought out and terribly executed.

However, if I was to offer lots of speculation:

The Crucible is essentially just a big energy source and transmitter. The mechanisms that provide the three options are on the Citadel but without the huge power source their purposes were different. What the crucible does is magnify and tweak the result and send it across the entire Galaxy.

The thing you have to randomly shoot at close range is simply the power source for Starkid, destroying it sends a surge of destructive power that would normally just kill Starkid, but the Crucible amplifies and modifies that pulse to affect all Reaper tech. Which for some reason also fries other Synthetic life as a side effect (perhaps because of the technology that was used to advance civilisations that came from the Reapers or their creators ended up incorporated into all synthetics... yes I am clutching at emergency induction ports).

The control terminal was what the creators of Starkid used to, uh, create him. They probably had to sacrifice one of their own numbers to create something that could have the resources of a powerful AI without actually being from a synthetic source. Basically making it the first hybrid life form, or the first Reaper. Again the crucible modifies and enhances that process turning Shepard into something like Starkid but also giving him direct control over all Reapers in the Galaxy.

The synthesis beam...er, maybe that was used to make the first reapers somehow and so the technology get's modified and enhanced to send a version of a Reaper making beam out across the galaxy causing synthesis. You have to throw yourself into it so that it somehow uses you as a template instead of actual Reapers. Even more emergency induction port clutching going on here, but that's the closest to possible I can get there.

As for how the various creators of the Crucible figured all this out....uh....um.... okay how about the civilisation that made the Citadel and it's crazy Starkid realised they made a terrible mistake and began plans for the Crucible themselves before getting wiped out by their creations creation. Since they are the only civilisation that would have a clue about that part of the Citadel, that's the only thing I can think of that makes sense.

How's that? Vague shred of feasibility or just as bad as Space Magic?

Modifié par Fenrisfil, 30 mars 2012 - 04:49 .

[eddieoctane]

shinobi602 wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

No, the Crucible changed the Catalyst. He says it loud and clear.

So the Protheans and species before them "added on" to the Crucible each time and decided to build a device that offers:

1)A little device with 2 handles that they predicted an organic would someday be able to...melt him/herself into it and control the Reapers?

2)Build a generator thing with a strong shield protecting it from being destroyed...to destroy the Reapers? Would have made more sense to have a "Blow up Reapers" button instead.

3)Magically predicted someone tens of thousands of years into the future would bungee jump into the beam and disintegrate and then...his/her "essence"(whatever the heck that means) would merge organics and synthetics?

My brain hurts even more now.

Hell, why would the Protheans and previous species build this superweapon with options!? "Well, let's give whoever finally completes this thing some choices. Maybe they'd like to control the Reapers! Let's build that into it. Well yea, but someone else would actually want to...you know, destroy them?"

The power conduit and control handles were all part of the Citadel. They were there all along. In the final scene, the Crucible is above, you as standing upside down on the bottom of the Presidium tower. Gravity has been reversed for some reason. It's true. I wonder if that means gravity was reversed during the entire TIM/Anderson conversation, since Shep rides and elevator "up" to the underside of the tower.

EDIT: it's not that a mass effect field couldn't have been reversed to change the direction of gravity, I just find it odd that the Catalyst would do so. And if the previous scene was upside, that meant the control console was connected to the ceiling.

Modifié par eddieoctane, 30 mars 2012 - 04:52 .

[Heather Cline]

To be frank it's circular logic with the whole synthetics killing organics, so he created the synthetics aka reapers to kill organics.

That logic is flawed. As for the 3 choices, stupid plot device. None of the endings differ much at all. Shepard dies unless you have enough EMS. All mass relays are destroyed. All aliens are stranded in that one huge fleet in sol system if the system wasn't destroyed by the destruction of all the mass relays which I doubt.

Somehow magically the normandy and only the normandy is in hyperspace jump with every single member of the ground squad from Garrus to James and everyone in between is on the Normandy and there is no reason for either situation.

Frankly the ending to ME3 is a load of crap. That's it.

[Arisugawa]

Singu wrote...

Arisugawa wrote...

But even that doesn't make any sense. If the Catalyst won't "push the button" as you say, why talk to Shepard at all? If Shepard is truly bleeding out in that scene, remaining silent will cause Shepard to die or pass out from lack of blood in a handful of minutes. If Shepard cannot figure out what to do, the Reapers will inevitably destroy the Crucible. The battle in space and on the ground is being won by the Catalyst's Reapers, so...why does it believe that its solution will no longer work? Simply because Shepard is there, and that the device was built? Winning the battle for this Cycle presents the Catalyst, and thus the Reapers, with a plethora of options to prevent the same thing from happening in the next Cycle as the advanced organics have now played their hand.

Prothean Beacons or Liara's capsules become meaningless because the Catalyst and the Reapers now know what it is and that the organics would try to build another. Any number of redesigns to the Citadel could take place prior to the return to Dark Space that would prevent a second Crucible from working in the future.

So if the change the Catalyst has undergone is simply a realization that the Citadel's energy can suddenly be turned against its forces, why make Shepard aware of this at all? It doesn't need to. Its solution will still work provided Shepard dies or the Crucible is destroyed.

First of all, I don't think Reaper intelligence on Alliance movements and plans are all that. It seems TiM was the one who reminded them about the Citadel floating about on it's own with their own personal Jesus stuck on it.

Second of all, the Catalyst is clearly bored and maybe a bit suicidal. But for some reason he can't do the final job of killing himself(or whatever gender you would use on a thing like the Starchild). I think the writer(s) went for the mystical deity routine in making his ways mysterious and unfathomable, in the hope that not all the plotholes would drown the player in the goo of inconsistencies at the same time. And instead hoped that it would spawn discussions like this one. Which I have to say that my own contribution is flimsical at best, since I'm trying to make sense out of something that I loathe and despise to begin with.

The Reapers don't need intelligence on the allied fleets or ground forces. They are merely going to overwhelm them. This is what Hackett repeatedly hammers home throughout the course of the game. The allied fleets cannot win a conventional war. Everything is a stalling tactic for the Crucible. It doesn't really matter what the Illusive Man may or may not have passed along. The Reaper forces are going to crush the opposition if the Crucible is not used. Therefore, the Catalyst has no need to speak to Shepard if the intent is that the solution should continue as it has for countless Cycles.

I'm also not sold on the Catalyst being a suicidal intelligence. It seems to be very devoted to its cause, even up to the point of cautioning Shepard not to use the Destroy function as it believes that the organic/synthetic conflicts would eventually occur again. And if it truly desired death, I think it would instead try to push Shepard toward the Destroy ending, as both Control and Synthesis would theoretically leave it alive and in its current state of immortal ennui.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[jumpingkaede]

The reality most likely is Bioware tried very hard to make Shepard "the one", who is the culmination of millions of years of evolution and cycles. Everything in every previous cycle led up to this point: Shepard standing in front of the Catalyst.

Of course, that Shepard is merely an incredibly charismatic and obstinate killing machine, and not really a mythological Christ figure, is immaterial.  There's nothing inherently special about Shepard  that would make, for example, his DNA unique.  

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 30 mars 2012 - 05:10 .

[Singu]

Arisugawa wrote...

The Reapers don't need intelligence on the allied fleets or ground forces. They are merely going to overwhelm them. This is what Hackett repeatedly throughout the course of the game hammers home. The allied fleets cannot win a conventional war. Everything is stalling tactic for the Crucible. It doesn't really matter what the Illusive Man may or may not have passed along. The Reaper forces are going to crush the opposition if the Crucible is not used. Therefore, the Catalyst has no need to speak to Shepard if the intent is that the solution should continue as it has for countless Cycles.

I'm also not sold on the Catalyst being a suicidal intelligence. It seems to be very devoted to its cause, even up to the point of cautioning Shepard not to use the Destroy function as it believes that the organic/synthetic conflicts would eventually occur again. And if it truly desired death, I think it would instead try to push Shepard toward the Destroy ending, as both Control and Synthesis would theoretically leave it alive and in its current state of immortal ennui.

It all comes down to what motivates the Catalyst to do what it apperantly does in providing both a transport and breathable atmosphere for Shepard, when you clearly see Harbinger and his cronies trying to stop them from gaining entrance to the Citadel down in London. They have divergent motivation, that's for sure. So, maybe he's reached the conclusion that his own creations has rebelled against himself! And thus performs a very personal cleansing of himself as the closest proxy to an offending organic to his single commandment of "though shalt not create synthetics". Anyway, I'm drifting...

The Catalyst seems on one hand to have no actual power to influence events around itself beyond keeping the Citadel in pristine condition with it's Keepers, and to open the gate for the Reapers. And at the same time it's got godlike powers. It knows what motivates Shepard, it knows "she has thought about destroying it"(this particular revelations is incredible proof of it's divine scrying abilities). So, what would motivate it to put Shepard at the controls of the final weapon? I don't know, but I do not think it's what it meant when it said the "Crucible changed me" - that was the change of it from a giant Relay to a weapon.

jumpingkaede wrote...

The reality most likely is Bioware
tried very hard to make Shepard "the one", who is the culmination of
millions of years of evolution and cycles. Everything in every previous
cycle led up to this point: Shepard standing in front of the Catalyst.

Of
course, that Shepard is merely an incredibly charismatic and obstinate
killing machine, and not really a mythological Christ figure, is
immaterial.  There's nothing inherently special about Shepard  that
would make, for example, his DNA unique.  

Yeah, they might as well have put a glowing green Crusifix in the middle, a giant blue bed of cybernetic matrix snakes on the left and a red picture of General MacArthur on the right.

Modifié par Singu, 30 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[ed87]

The crucible turns Shepard into a fly so he cannot resist walking into the light...

[Arisugawa]

Singu wrote...

The Catalyst seems on one hand to have no actual power to influence events around itself beyond keeping the Citadel in pristine condition with it's Keepers, and to open the gate for the Reapers. And at the same time it's got godlike powers. It knows what motivates Shepard, it knows "she has thought about destroying it"(this particular revelations is incredible proof of it's divine scrying abilities). So, what would motivate it to put Shepard at the controls of the final weapon? I don't know, but I do not think it's what it meant when it said the "Crucible changed me" - that was the change of it from a giant Relay to a weapon.

Oh, I don't know if there is any godlike power there. If it is connected to Harbinger or the other Reapers, aware of their thoughts or observations, it would certainly know who Shepard was and how hard Shepard has fought to end the Reaper threat to organics. This wouldn't require any telepathy or advanced sensing ability.

And the Citadel isn't a weapon. The Crucible is. The Citadel itself hasn't been fundamentally changed. Remove the Crucible, or destroy it, and the Citadel isn't different than it was before. If the only thing the "changed me" line is meant to reference is that the Crucible can use the energy of the Citadel in a manner that the Citadel's designer never intended, that is...underwhelming. We already knew the Crucible was going to do that. That was the entire point of connecting it to the Presidium in the first place.

Yeah, they might as well have put a glowing green Crusifix in the
middle, a giant blue bed of cybernetic matrix snakes on the left and a
red picture of General MacArthur on the right.

<3

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[Arisugawa]

Double post.

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 05:32 .

[BlueChildren]

The way I understanded it was that the Crucible was a kind of hacking tool for the catalyst

[tenojitsu]

Maybe the crucible was designed to utilize the technology aleady in place at the citadel against the repears? How conveniently that all three design flaws that the crucible exploits are right next to eaech other, space magic i guees

[Arisugawa]

tenojitsu wrote...

Maybe the crucible was designed to utilize the technology aleady in place at the citadel against the repears? How conveniently that all three design flaws that the crucible exploits are right next to eaech other, space magic i guees

But again...that doesn't make any sense. Why would you design a device that must be activated by destroying one conduit on the Citadel, or grasping handgrips on another conduit on the Citadel? For that matter, why does jumping into the beam of energy connecting the two start the process?

What if some random fighter pilot had ejected from his burning craft and his ejection trajectory took him directly into the beam? Would THAT have accidentally started Synthesis? Because if I'm supposed to assume that Synthesis is only available because Shepard has cybernetic implants from ME2, that's...highly convenient. Would the same apply to say, any ordinary quarian who happened by considering their tendency to implant themselves? Or any soldier who lost a limb and was relying on a cybernetic replacement until a new limb could be cloned?

Would Synthesis then not be available if it was Anderson who made it to the Catalyst and not Shepard?

Modifié par Arisugawa, 30 mars 2012 - 05:49 .

[I Soya I]

Hmmm. Crucible has been around for many cycles and no one knows who made the blueprints. Catalyst is what makes crucible work. Catalyst is in cahoots with the reapers. I'm the only person that knows or has known of the Catalyst's existence......

[robarcool]

Hexley UK wrote...

Space magic!

[Willdaran]

My over thought (and probably overwrought) thinking is that the entire series was about the free will and self-determination of individuals and of nation states. That is right up until Shepard meets the Catalyst. The Catalyst represents determinism and fatalism which runs counter to free will, etc...

Convoluted, but the Catalyst 'allows' Shepard the freedom to choose an ending/beginning. Unfortunately all choices lead to the end of free will and self-determination for some group or other.

A pick your poison moment. Ah, bittersweet. I recall reading that. Thought it sucked then too.

[Fenrisfil]

Fenrisfil wrote...

Okay, so the ending makes no real sense, was poorly thought out and terribly executed.

However, if I was to offer lots of speculation:

The Crucible is essentially just a big energy source and transmitter. The mechanisms that provide the three options are on the Citadel but without the huge power source their purposes were different. What the crucible does is magnify and tweak the result and send it across the entire Galaxy.

The thing you have to randomly shoot at close range is simply the power source for Starkid, destroying it sends a surge of destructive power that would normally just kill Starkid, but the Crucible amplifies and modifies that pulse to affect all Reaper tech. Which for some reason also fries other Synthetic life as a side effect (perhaps because of the technology that was used to advance civilisations that came from the Reapers or their creators ended up incorporated into all synthetics... yes I am clutching at emergency induction ports).

The control terminal was what the creators of Starkid used to, uh, create him. They probably had to sacrifice one of their own numbers to create something that could have the resources of a powerful AI without actually being from a synthetic source. Basically making it the first hybrid life form, or the first Reaper. Again the crucible modifies and enhances that process turning Shepard into something like Starkid but also giving him direct control over all Reapers in the Galaxy.

The synthesis beam...er, maybe that was used to make the first reapers somehow and so the technology get's modified and enhanced to send a version of a Reaper making beam out across the galaxy causing synthesis. You have to throw yourself into it so that it somehow uses you as a template instead of actual Reapers. Even more emergency induction port clutching going on here, but that's the closest to possible I can get there.

As for how the various creators of the Crucible figured all this out....uh....um.... okay how about the civilisation that made the Citadel and it's crazy Starkid realised they made a terrible mistake and began plans for the Crucible themselves before getting wiped out by their creations creation. Since they are the only civilisation that would have a clue about that part of the Citadel, that's the only thing I can think of that makes sense.

How's that? Vague shred of feasibility or just as bad as Space Magic?

I guess it was just as bad then. Nevermind.

[sargon1986]

IsaacShep wrote...

No, the Crucible changed the Catalyst. He says it loud and clear.

That statement alone makes no sense and creates more plotholes than a swiss cheese has.

[robarcool]

Swiss has holes, but doesn't have plot holes. Just saying.

[Kalas82]

There is just one answer:

It is a thing you cannot comperehend


The A,B,C-device ontop the citadel doesn`t make any sense, who build it? why? how? when?
Space god does even make less sense.
The crucible in it`s current form doesn`t make a lot more sense either.

So..Space-God and the citadel are bound together, Space-God created the citadel or was created by the same people that build the citadel, but the crucibel was biult by Space-Gods victims..how nice of Space-God to make them compatible ....since there has never anyone been ontop there, it must have been him creating the A,B,C-device, the lift, the breathable space-vacuum, which doesn`t make Shepards eyes go *poof*.