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#76
sorentoft

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Klijpope wrote...

4. Irrelevant.
5. Contradictory.


Right, while I respect your opinion and everything you are plain wrong at these points. Reason number 4 is not at all irrelevant, it is perhaps the most relevant and solid of the reasons stated (excluding 6). #5 does not contradict anything, it simply boils down to a "there is no absolute answer in this", and it is right. It does not contradict anything to say that there is a balance, and in the case of Mass Effect 3 the balance is hit at caving in to the customers.
 

#77
Dark Cider

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Loved the article.

#78
UnstableMongoose

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This is the best Kain article yet--the first two were short on the reasoned analysis that he displays here, as they were much more reactionary and emotional pieces. It is through this article that I begin to see the positive qualities of writing that I had earlier believed Kain to lack--clearly he is more skilled and intelligent than I initially realized.

The following is opinion intermingled with analytic fact, but mostly opinion:

Point 1: Yahtzee is brilliant, but he's a humorist. Taking the overbearing words of a humorist as the example of "critics of Retake Mass effect" is a cheap trick that politicians get called out for all the time. It's strange how easily people are able to overlook this when they agree with a columnist. For those of you on the forums who have been yelling "straw man" at either supporters or opponents of the ending without knowing what it means--this is an example of its use. The fact that Kain keeps referring to these quotes of a humorist to build the backbone of the entire rest of the article is distressing, but from here on out I'll try to analyze his points imagining that the quotes didn't come from a satirical source so that the merit of the points themselves is what I discuss.

Point 2: True. It is possible to change an ending--but the author didn't carry though. He didn't bother mentioning that George Luca's changes to his film's timelines, footage, and dialogue are almost universally considered to be a mistake. Furthermore, his examples have nothing to do with fan backlash causing the changes--the poor choices of example mean that this segment is an incomplete thought, and while I don't necessarily disagree with his premise, this section is poorly penned.

Point 3: Confusing principle--if BioWare already planned an alternate ending or a clarifying point, then it's likely they already know what this ending should be. Thus, changing the ending is still changing what the originally planned alternate ending would be. Furthermore, this point is absolutely nothing but hypothetical and does not have analytic merit.

Point 4: A very well written point, but from BioWare's perspective, they already made a game where your choices matter. The life and death of dozens of characters that you meet throughout the games hinges on your actions alone. Entire galactic civilizations flourish, or are extinguished based solely on your whim. BioWare never promised the the ultimate fate of Shepard himself would depend on the choices that you made--simply that you would change the galaxy forever. At the same time, I believe the author is correct in that BioWare changing content based on fan feedback would actually be a credit to their artistic integrity and they way they have done business, provided that the ending that they changed to had any merit besides popular appeal.

Point 5: The writer is mostly correct here. Many--if not most or nearly all--members of Retake Mass Effect are rational and dedicated BioWare fans. The pressure being put on BioWare is not solely mindless drivel about a happy ending. The issue is that, unfortunately, the less worthwhile feedback is absolutely dominating the more reasoned critiques in terms of volume. BioWare can only act on the feedback they're receiving, and they're receiving much more stuff that deserves Yahtzee's hyperbolic description of it than they are of useful feedback.

Point 6: This is a very simple, yet astute, point, and Kain's most correct in this article. If you bought ME3, you have a right to enter into a dialogue with BioWare about it. Whether or not your feedback is "idiotic" from someone else's perspective doesn't change that you are BioWare's loyal customer. However, I find his statement about "PR-Gloss" and all points derived from it to be heavily opinionated and disappointing compared to the more rational arguments that he used throughout the second page of the article (which I found to be well done, in general). I also doubt his claim that he is not invested in Mass Effect. He uses far too many emotional words and phrases in his reporting on this matter for me to believe that readily.

Overall, this article reinforces what I have thought about Kain's previous articles: clearly designed to support Retake Mass Effect and to coalesce the good ideas held by the Retake crowd. But his extraordinary disdain for anyone who believes anything general and his choices in counter-example and example are indicative of the same lack of journalistic integrity that he accuses video game reviewers for. I don't have any problem with anyone doing this--he has a right as a journalist to write a one-sided article when his reasoning leads him to that side--but such pieces should be labeled opinion rather than as tech news.

#79
DiegoProgMetal

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TolaSrrup wrote...

While totally impressed with the Forbes' article, I am incenced by Yahtzee calling us the "idiot fanbase" and "****heads." I know that I should be adult enough to look beyond such slanders, however this venomous attack from this "person" who is not a fan of Mass Effect nor of Bioware as a whole does extremely anger me. It makes me want to call him a "prentecious git" who is simply angry that he wasn't born with a bigger pair of dice. However, being unsure of who this person even is or why he should matter at all I will decline on stooping to his level. I will simply accept that he wants to be made known by being an inflamitory ass. Now please excuse me as I apparently have idiocy to perform, like lubing up my hat.


What can I say... It's easy for him to call us idiots while hidden behind his keyboard.

#80
UnstableMongoose

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DiegoProgMetal wrote...
What can I say... It's easy for him to call us idiots while hidden behind his keyboard.


He's a humorist. Yahtzee has never taken anything seriously, and spends hours yelling curse words at things that he admits to liking. Yahtzee calls peope idiots because that is what the internet humor persona that he has developed would do--not because he believes it.

ed. See my comments on Kain's Pt. 1 above

Modifié par UnstableMongoose, 30 mars 2012 - 09:19 .


#81
Jonas TM

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[...]In fact, it would make even more sense if everyone had just gotten wiped
the **** out and the cycle is shown to start again. It would show that
even Commander Shepard, a man with all the resources available to anyone
in the universe, the greatest technology, the greatest minds and the
greatest navies at his side, is powerless to overcome the inevitability
of entropy.[...] *snip*

Despite the fact that this Yahtzee guy is just rage-baiting to get hits I would actually agree with him on this one point.  At least an ending like this would make sense based on the previous information/lore we have.  And to tell you the truth this would have made a bunch of people mad, but I think it would have gone over better than the current endings. 

The second point is DLC.  It got me thinking and this has probably already been brought up, but... Bioware/EA are most likely banking on DLC to generate extra revenue on top of retail sales.  Who are the people to most likely buy DLC and other ME related items?  Not the casual customers, but the fanbase who have played the previous games and are heavily invested in the story.  The same ones who are understandably pissed off at how the endings were handled.  So in my view this is very much a foggy area for Bioware. 

Either they planned to release the real endings from the start and had no idea of the backlash the current ones would generate and are now trying to fix it (I don't think this is likely because they would have hinted at it by now with all the negative PR it is generating).  Or these are the real endings and again they had no idea how off-put the fanbase would be and they either have to fix it (at a cost to them) if they want good DLC number or not fix it and hope the fanbase still buys the DLC anyway.  None of these scenarious would be particularly appealing to Bioware or EA. 

Personally I don't hate the endings, I am disappointed in certain aspects (the Normandy Crew for starters) and will probably buy the DLC anyway, but I don't know how many others will.

#82
Disciple888

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Kain makes great points. He even has one for pro-enders in another article. Changing the ending won't hurt you in any way. You don't have to download the DLC. You can keep the RGB ending you chose, and be happy with it. But why shouldn't other customers of Bioware's product be allowed to have an opinion of what they believe was a product failure? If the Retake ME movement gets the new endings it wants, pro-enders get to keep the RGB endings, anti-enders get to have their interactive experience realized, and BioWare (A COMMERCIAL ENTITY AND NOT AN ARTHOUSE) makes more money. How is this, in any way, a bad thing for any of the parties involved?

#83
Almostfaceman

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I've mentioned Point 6 of the article repeatedly, heh heh. Good job Forbes.

#84
DiegoProgMetal

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UnstableMongoose wrote...

DiegoProgMetal wrote...
What can I say... It's easy for him to call us idiots while hidden behind his keyboard.


He's a humorist. Yahtzee has never taken anything seriously, and spends hours yelling curse words at things that he admits to liking. Yahtzee calls peope idiots because that is what the internet humor persona that he has developed would do--not because he believes it.

ed. See my comments on Kain's Pt. 1 above


Thanks for clarifying it. I had no idea of who this "Yahtzee" was. Don't know if I find it to be "funny" though. But, if he is getting public to this "character" or "persona", good to him. 
Ps.: I'm NOT being sarcastic, I meant all I said.

#85
UnstableMongoose

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DiegoProgMetal wrote...

Thanks for clarifying it. I had no idea of who this "Yahtzee" was. Don't know if I find it to be "funny" though. But, if he is getting public to this "character" or "persona", good to him. 
Ps.: I'm NOT being sarcastic, I meant all I said.


I completely understand. It's not a crime to not know that someone is being sarcastic when they say something mean--I'm just trying to be informative. For an example of his body of work, see this.

ed. The fact that Kain doesn't mention that he's quoting a humorist when he quotes someone who disagrees with him at the start is the biggest problem with this article.

Modifié par UnstableMongoose, 30 mars 2012 - 09:28 .


#86
Ultra Prism

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They write good stuff

#87
xcomcmdr

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Good article once again !

Modifié par xcomcmdr, 30 mars 2012 - 09:34 .


#88
txmn1016

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Lookout1390 wrote...

I never would have expected Forbes-writer to back us like this.

Keep fighting the good fight, Forbes.


Multiple writers at Forbes have been backing this.  While the writers at less...ah..reputable gaming sources have subsequently been bashing the bloggers at Forbes.  Guess I know who I'm going to for game reviews from now on! :lol:

#89
TheRisenStar

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Forbes keeping that woodshed in good use.

I wonder when IGN, PA, et al will finally tire of being taken to it so thoroughly.

#90
nhcre8tv1

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Nice to hear from a non-fan who isn't a 4 asterisks.

Modifié par nhcre8tv1, 30 mars 2012 - 09:41 .


#91
die-yng

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DiegoProgMetal wrote...

TolaSrrup wrote...

While totally impressed with the Forbes' article, I am incenced by Yahtzee calling us the "idiot fanbase" and "****heads." I know that I should be adult enough to look beyond such slanders, however this venomous attack from this "person" who is not a fan of Mass Effect nor of Bioware as a whole does extremely anger me. It makes me want to call him a "prentecious git" who is simply angry that he wasn't born with a bigger pair of dice. However, being unsure of who this person even is or why he should matter at all I will decline on stooping to his level. I will simply accept that he wants to be made known by being an inflamitory ass. Now please excuse me as I apparently have idiocy to perform, like lubing up my hat.


What can I say... It's easy for him to call us idiots while hidden behind his keyboard.


Agreeing to both of this, I would like him to stand before even one of us and call us that to our face.
That's not a threat. it's just not so insult someone right before you, even if you don't fear his reaction.

The problem is, no matter how many of us cna show they are not idiots and that most of us are protesting in a very civilizedm creative and often quite friendly way, they'll continue to judge us from the actions of a few loudmouths who really act the part.

Not because they really believe that we are all dumb like hell, no because it is easier to dismiss anyhting we say if we are all just a bunch of morons.

Modifié par die-yng, 30 mars 2012 - 10:19 .


#92
Unlimited69x

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Good article. Good points.

#93
Mylia Stenetch

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Klijpope wrote...

The Forbes articles are OK, but they're getting a lot of love here because of confirmation bias. They are not objectively right, and while Kain makes a lot of good points, some are easy to refute. I am pretty sure he would not like it if the readers had the power to make him change the last paragraph of his articles.

I think this is his weakest article. His 6 opinions are not very robust.

1. It isn't - because the 'fans' have no part in doing all the hard creative work done to realise the creation, and neither do they stump up the money for developing it in the first place. No one would consider a fan campaign to change the ambiguous ending to 'Inception' as reasonable.
2. Lucas changes his own work - fans complain loudly - but do not campaign like this for him to restore the originals. Everyone recognises his right to do it, even if we really disagree. Conan Doyle did not change the ending of "The Final Problem", he just resurrected the character for more stories (same as the Fallout argument).
3. Unquantifiable.
4. Irrelevant.
5. Contradictory.
6. Of course fans should complain, or better phrased, offer criticism.

Criticising the ending is fine. Asking BW to give us more closure etc, is fine. Even asking them to change the ending totally is fine (though they have absolutely no obligation to do so). Telling them how to change it is not fine - demanding specific endings is not fine.

It is good business to cater to your audience/customers. But you can never surrender creative control to them. Take their advice, but you have to decide how to respond, not them telling you how to do it.


So far what I have been reading yeah. They are using this blogger for confirmation bias, and refuting others cause it does not conform to what they want.

Of course to the points he makes both sides can make a case for what should be done. In the end it is Ultimatley Bioware's choice. Where I fully support your last statement about more closure, and possibly changing to the ending. To demand what you want for an ending is never cool.

#94
Mylia Stenetch

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die-yng wrote...

DiegoProgMetal wrote...

TolaSrrup wrote...

While totally impressed with the Forbes' article, I am incenced by Yahtzee calling us the "idiot fanbase" and "****heads." I know that I should be adult enough to look beyond such slanders, however this venomous attack from this "person" who is not a fan of Mass Effect nor of Bioware as a whole does extremely anger me. It makes me want to call him a "prentecious git" who is simply angry that he wasn't born with a bigger pair of dice. However, being unsure of who this person even is or why he should matter at all I will decline on stooping to his level. I will simply accept that he wants to be made known by being an inflamitory ass. Now please excuse me as I apparently have idiocy to perform, like lubing up my hat.


What can I say... It's easy for him to call us idiots while hidden behind his keyboard.


Agreeing to both of this, I would like him to stand before even one of us and call us that to our face.
That's not a threat. it's just not so insult someone right before you, even if you don't fear his reaction.

The problem is, no matter how many of us cna show they are not idiots and that most of us are protesting in a very civilizedm creative and often quite friendly way, they'll continue to judge us from the actions of a few loudmouths who really act the part.

Not because they really believe that we are all dumb like hell, no because it is easier to dismiss anyhting we say if we are all just a bunch of morons.


Yatzhee, plays an over the top, bigger than life character that does gaming reviews. It is apart of his stich that draws his fanbase. This is not the first time he made fun of a fanbase or a game, and it will not be his last. To understand that he is playing a character for humor and satire, to make a living, not sitting there in Austrailia thinking how he can make himself look superior to other gamers.

#95
TheMadBlimper

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I have a whole new level of respect for Forbes

#96
LunaticLMD

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I can't believe "critics" and "press" have to have this explained to them.

Even Yahtzee?

I thought you were smart bro.

#97
Xeranx

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I have to say that I agree with those who analyzed this "article". While saying he's not invested, he pretty much shows how interested he is in the whole thing. In fact, his Sir Arthur Conan Doyle reference looks as though it was lifted right from these boards. Reading that passage I thought, "wasn't this cleared up already?" But he brings that reference to bear so that it looks like he's actually saying something with some kind of credibility.

As one here already countered his examples, if a reviewer or reporter were to do this he'd lose any and all credibility in no time. He's obviously not checking his facts and sooner or later it's going to catch up with him. The only thing he has going for him is being a article blogger (he admits this) for Forbes magazine. Without Forbes he would be on the same level as the reviewers that people are giving odd looks to now.

And on the subject of the reviewers, it's ironic that many people who are part of the retake movement stood by the perfect scores for ME2 when many reviewers who have to wait like everyone else to get the game voiced issues with story and many other things. Those people were given the cold shoulder and viewed as idiots. All I can say is that there's a clear example of being fickle here.

#98
Reptilian Rob

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Hydralysk wrote...

Ahhh Forbes, what humanitarian miracles did we do in our past life to deserve you?

I know right?

#99
RiouHotaru

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...And once again, Forbes misses the point.

But because he writes stuff that his readers agree with they praise him unendingly, earning him more page views.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 31 mars 2012 - 09:35 .


#100
RiouHotaru

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Klijpope wrote...

The Forbes articles are OK, but they're getting a lot of love here because of confirmation bias. They are not objectively right, and while Kain makes a lot of good points, some are easy to refute. I am pretty sure he would not like it if the readers had the power to make him change the last paragraph of his articles.

I think this is his weakest article. His 6 opinions are not very robust.

1. It isn't - because the 'fans' have no part in doing all the hard creative work done to realise the creation, and neither do they stump up the money for developing it in the first place. No one would consider a fan campaign to change the ambiguous ending to 'Inception' as reasonable.
2. Lucas changes his own work - fans complain loudly - but do not campaign like this for him to restore the originals. Everyone recognises his right to do it, even if we really disagree. Conan Doyle did not change the ending of "The Final Problem", he just resurrected the character for more stories (same as the Fallout argument).
3. Unquantifiable.
4. Irrelevant.
5. Contradictory.
6. Of course fans should complain, or better phrased, offer criticism.

Criticising the ending is fine. Asking BW to give us more closure etc, is fine. Even asking them to change the ending totally is fine (though they have absolutely no obligation to do so). Telling them how to change it is not fine - demanding specific endings is not fine.

It is good business to cater to your audience/customers. But you can never surrender creative control to them. Take their advice, but you have to decide how to respond, not them telling you how to do it.


Thank god someone here can do more than just get down on their knees and worship the man.