158 réponses à ce sujet

[turian_rage]

Someone needs to compile a Forbes thread consisting of every Forbes article written about Mass Effect 3. I never thought I would ever be interested in a big business magazine until now.

[blood-dodo]

Forbes has been a major asset so far, and they continue to deliver.

[Lozark]

The Forbes writers have a way of voicing what I want to say, but don't have the words, time, or skill to hammer out.

Modifié par Lozark, 31 mars 2012 - 09:55 .

[Flextt]

Lozark wrote...

The Forbes writers have a way of voicing what I want to say, but don't have the words or the time to hammer out.

"This wicked democratization of art is far, far more troubling than its commercialization." Come again? This one line is so, so, so PERFECT. I am simply awestruck with the author.

[Lozark]

Juromaro wrote...

I find it funny.....Someone agrees with the Retake movement/bad ending etc and they get praised, yet someone defends the endings or says it wasn't that big of a deal and they are ****s or special ed students because they "glossed" over the endings. Everyone seems to post only articles on why the endings should be changed etc but never an article on why the endings shouldn't be changed.

There's plenty of articles out there on that; this Forbes article even links to that.  The boards are currently mostly Retake, I suppose, but there are people out there writing against changing the ending.  There have to be, otherwise we wouldn't have anything to respond to and the Retakers would be defending their points to... no one,  I guess.

[Chuvvy]

I love this guy in a totally noncreepy way.

[Ira Deorum]

Juromaro wrote...

Lozark wrote...

Juromaro wrote...

I find it funny.....Someone agrees with the Retake movement/bad ending etc and they get praised, yet someone defends the endings or says it wasn't that big of a deal and they are ****s or special ed students because they "glossed" over the endings. Everyone seems to post only articles on why the endings should be changed etc but never an article on why the endings shouldn't be changed.

There's plenty of articles out there on that; this Forbes article even links to that.  The boards are currently mostly Retake, I suppose, but there are people out there writing against changing the ending.  There have to be, otherwise we wouldn't have anything to respond to and the Retakers would be defending their points to... no one,  I guess.

Yeah, but I read comments about the Forbes articles and it's all praise, all the "negative" articles out there get praise....but articles from gameinformer, ign, gamespot etc... that offer a different point of view gets attacked and downrated lol.

As you said these boards are currently Retake.....I post a thread saying I hate the endings I demand this I deserve that etc and I'm touted as a hero....but I post a thread about why I liked the endings and I'm touted as "special" or fan-boy and other internet insults. I just find it funny.


I won't lie, at first I was against the Retake movements, but now I'm not for or against it. I've stopped playing ME3 not because of the endings but because all this drama over 5 mins had killed my interest, I'm now playing DA2 again because the hate on that has died down a little now so interest is back up lol.

The reasons why articles from ign, gamespot, etc, recieved negative backlash when they go against the Retake movement is because their articles are grossly biased and ignore fan's reasons on why they hated the ending.

They use the same tired argument everytime: "derp, fans are stupid, it's artistic, derpity derp."

Forbes points out the arguments of both sides and responds with logic.

[Madecologist]

Nice article but my two favourite one remains the failure of video game critics (the one that talks about how GoW was meh game (solid shooter with a very meh story) and ME3 endings was clearly flawed yet no game reviewer ever mentioned this. His second about 'vested' interest and how the game journalism industry is influenced too much to be trusted to offer an unbiased opinions or even do their jobs as intended.

[SillyNydia]

Very good review of the situation. Also read another one by Forbes, "BioWare Co-Founder Apologizes To Fans For The Mass Effect 3 Ending - Sort Of "

www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/21/bioware-co-founder-apologizes-to-fans-for-the-mass-effect-3-ending-sort-of/

^Because that apology made me even more ticked off than the endings.

[Nicodemus]

I find the articles that Forbes have written to be reasonably unbiased and informative. They can objectively see the issues that the fan base is upset about but also call out the gaming media for it's blinkered and unbiased reviews.

However, the Forbes guys are not getting everything right and I wouldn't expect them to since they are not dedicated gaming critics/players. This is why I appreciate their articles, they are making me think of the wider issues but are also showing their fallibility in certain areas thus forcing me to think for myself and do my own research.

[Narby]

Juromaro wrote...

I find it funny.....Someone agrees with the Retake movement/bad ending etc and they get praised, yet someone defends the endings or says it wasn't that big of a deal and they are ****s or special ed students because they "glossed" over the endings. Everyone seems to post only articles on why the endings should be changed etc but never an article on why the endings shouldn't be changed.

The ones that write about how they shouldnt be changed never give any decent reasons though. Its always 'Its Biowares game' or 'artistic integrity' and skip over all the points that make the ending....bad lol.

[Nathan_41]

Forbes is just on fire. I love Erik Kain so much right now.

[Madecologist]

Narby wrote...

Juromaro wrote...

I find it funny.....Someone agrees with the Retake movement/bad ending etc and they get praised, yet someone defends the endings or says it wasn't that big of a deal and they are ****s or special ed students because they "glossed" over the endings. Everyone seems to post only articles on why the endings should be changed etc but never an article on why the endings shouldn't be changed.

The ones that write about how they shouldnt be changed never give any decent reasons though. Its always 'Its Biowares game' or 'artistic integrity' and skip over all the points that make the ending....bad lol.

It is even simplier than that actually.

Most of the articles that defend the ending tends to insult, belittle, and outright call derogatory terms to the 'Retakers'. They don't even try to explain the endings or defend it. They just call artisitic integrity, preach the end of the world as we know it if BW caves, and that the people asking for a new endings are <insert long string of insults>.

However articles that tend to take the side of the Retake movement don't actually insult the other side. Sure they disagree and point out why they think they are wrong. I think the meanist word ever used by any article writer that takes the Retake side was 'narrow minded' about the oppisition. But that was only once or twice. Yet check Destructoid, IGN, Escapist Reviewers, and etc... and look at their language and terms used.

Honestly as someone that actually studied Journalism at the University level (only as an elective but still)... it is very disguisting and unprofessional.

Modifié par Madecologist, 31 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[saracen16]

Forbes is making a lot of money out of the "retake ME3" campaign, and Kain is as usual speaking out of his other body orifice. He's grasping at straws like he usually does, parrotting the concerns of angry fans and not adding anything new to the discussion.

Kain wrote... 1. Corporate decisions already deeply influence artistic direction when it comes to commercial art like video games.

The only decision I've seen is that the BioWare team planned it out as a trilogy. HOW they came up with that journey was entirely their call to make.

2. The precedent has already been set, and not just in video games.

That doesn't deny the fact that forcing ME3's devs to change the ending would end up interfering with their own license of expression. Two wrongs don't make a ****ing right, Kain.

3. BioWare may have been planning an alternative ending from the get-go if the indoctrination theory is true.

And how does that prove that changing the ending will violate ME3's artistic integrity? It is the call of the devs in the end even if they are planning an alternative ending.

4. Games are interactive experiences, and Mass Effect 3 more interactive than most.

Oh, boy, the "co-author" quote. Mass Effect's story was purely written by the devs and they only worked on some customer feedback. The ultimate decision to incorporate feedback into their story rests on the dev's shoulders. And let's face it: you write your own story by making choices within the game. You don't have control over the plot points. You only have control as to how your story - the story that BioWare has already written - progresses.

5. Obviously not all games should cave to fan pressure.

And they shouldn't, and no, it's not silly. Any self-respecting artist would never care about what consumers want to see insofar as it is constructive criticism. There is a line to be drawn between constructive criticism and feedback regarding the content of the art, not the way it is presented.

The whole ME3 game was the ending: you decided how these plots ended insofar as to how you dealt with them. Therefore, Kain's statement about "cookie-cutter" endings is fallacious if not laughable.

6. Last: why shouldn’t fans complain?

That's ridiculous. It does not prove that changing the ending won't affect ME3's artistic integrity. Fans can complain: we're seeing that now. But there's a difference between complaining and forcing the devs to change the ending, and between constructive and destructive criticism; there is no, absolutely NO, duty on part of BioWare to adhere to every single one of those complaints. They take the feedback as they see fit and do with it as they please. It's not for us to decide.

Therefore, only if BioWare decides by itself to alter the ending does artistic integrity stand firm, but we have yet to see. As for now, Kain will just spew his capitalist garbage to justify some false sense of entitlement on his part and on part of the fans... all the while taking away your money for Forbes subscriptions.

[Aulis Vaara]

build319 wrote...

Seriously. I just reviewed a bunch of Forbes' articles on gaming and their coverage and prespective are great. I never thought I would be going to Forbes to get my gaming news but the content is just "good".

I am not just talking about the ME3 coverage either. They have an article on warning labels to video games which is an excellent read.

Y U NO LINK RECOMMENDATION?

Yeah, not meant as a personal attack or anything, a lot of people don't do this, but it's usually a good idea to add a link to something you recommend.

[iamthedave3]

saracen16 wrote...

Forbes is making a lot of money out of the "retake ME3" campaign, and Kain is as usual speaking out of his other body orifice. He's grasping at straws like he usually does, parrotting the concerns of angry fans and not adding anything new to the discussion.

A bit like everyone else, then? It's not like the pro-enders OR anti-enders have said a single new word on this topic in a week or so.

saracen16 wrote...The only decision I've seen is that the BioWare team planned it out as a trilogy. HOW they came up with that journey was entirely their call to make.

You haven't seen any of the decisions, because you're not a staff member. In fact they've made thousands of decisions. PR decisions, budget decisions, time decisions, DLC decisions. Each and every one of these is a corporate decision which affects the game and the game trilogy. And since they came under EA's banner, guess who was making a lot of the PR calls and marketing decisions which have contributed enormously to the game's success?

At least think about the point before going off half-cocked.

saracen16 wrote...That doesn't deny the fact that forcing ME3's devs to change the ending would end up interfering with their own license of expression. Two wrongs don't make a ****ing right, Kain.

They can't be forced to change the ending, making your point null and void. The most that people can do is apply enough pressure that they decide it's in their interests to change the ending (which has happened).

saracen16 wrote...And they shouldn't, and no, it's not silly. Any self-respecting artist would never care about what consumers want to see insofar as it is constructive criticism.

Depends entirely on the artist in question and the medium in which they are working. Artists are not some faceless coagulate blob. There are various writers - for example - who value customer feedback very highly and care a lot about what they want to see.

And there is no such thing as constructive criticism. There's just criticism. Even 'it sucks I hate it' is just criticism. It tells you the most basic truth: in this instance, with this individual, your work didn't succeed (unless you wanted them to hate it, which does happen from time to time).

saracen16 wrote...The whole ME3 game was the ending: you decided how these plots ended insofar as to how you dealt with them. Therefore, Kain's statement about "cookie-cutter" endings is fallacious if not laughable.

No it isn't and no it isn't. What makes them cookie cutter is the re-use of art assets and the like, as you should well know by now. Even if the content is philosophically different they are visually identical barring a handful of changes (mostly in the opening section with Shepherd and the colour filter).

saracen16 wrote...That's ridiculous. It does not prove that changing the ending won't affect ME3's artistic integrity. Fans can complain: we're seeing that now. But there's a difference between complaining and forcing the devs to change the ending,

Which you've already said can't be done. The devs either decide to change the ending or they don't, but nobody can force them to.

saracen16 wrote...and between constructive and destructive criticism;

There is no division. This is a false separation. So-called 'constructive' criticism is a concept used by artists to ignore the opinions of people when they find them hurtful. Every word, no matter how coarse or brutal, about these endings is the same as even the most eloquent and thoughtful. Regardless of the content, it tells Bioware the same thing: It did not work.

The more detailed responses give more ideas on how to fix it, but as you've pointed out yourself, in the end that lies with the devs anyway. The best you can say about so-called 'constructive' criticism is that it tends to be more persuasive in nature as it's more thought out.

saracen16 wrote...Therefore, only if BioWare decides by itself to alter the ending does artistic integrity stand firm, but we have yet to see. As for now, Kain will just spew his capitalist garbage to justify some false sense of entitlement on his part and on part of the fans... all the while taking away your money for Forbes subscriptions.

This would appear to invalidate the nature of criticism as an entire field, renders any movie changed as a result of test screening null and void, and ignores multiple instances of people changing their works (including Leonardo Di Vinci of all people) purely as a result of criticism or feedback.

Oh, and nice slip in of the entitlement argument at the end there. Good to see someone bringing something new to the table after all this time.

[lordofdogtown19]

Never thought I'd love Forbes so much

[Sinner8056]

This wicked democratization of art is far, far more troubling than its commercialization.

I love this man.

[Relwyn]

Slidell505 wrote...

I love this guy in a totally noncreepy way.

That comment just made it even more creepy 

Very good article by Forbes however. I also read the article which Mr Kain quoted in his article from Yahtzee. Normally I listen to the cynical brit and can find myself agreeing with him more often than not - but on this note I find him to be full of it. He's berating the audience with vitriol and makes himself look like a tool in the process. One cannot help but be cynical and laugh about the situation he put himself in. I do however thank Mr Kain for pretty much putting him in his place.

Modifié par Relwyn, 31 mars 2012 - 02:50 .

[FatalX7.0]

DrowNoble wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

E.D. Kain made another article.

Link: Forbes article


What is your opinion?

Well I agree with the article 100%.

Bioware used to say that we co-made the game with the developers.  They always had good interaction between us and them.  Now, suddenly, they are crying foul and claiming "artistic integrity" and pretty much going back on their previous stance.

Hopefully come April the "fix" we were promised from Dr Ray Muzyka, will be an actual improved ending and not some crappy DLC that just "explains" the current ending for those of us "that don't get it".  Bioware is on shakey ground here if you think about it.  DA fans were disappointed in DA2, they just made the most expensive game in history (SWTOR) and now this.  They could lose a chunk of their fanbase if they don't swallow their pride and do the right thing.

Remember people:  HOLD THE LINE

I don't believe Bioware said anything about artistic integrity themselves.

[jonal11]

Once again, Forbes nails it. Damn fine journalists there.

[Siegdrifa]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

DrowNoble wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

E.D. Kain made another article.

Link: Forbes article


What is your opinion?

Well I agree with the article 100%.

Bioware used to say that we co-made the game with the developers.  They always had good interaction between us and them.  Now, suddenly, they are crying foul and claiming "artistic integrity" and pretty much going back on their previous stance.

Hopefully come April the "fix" we were promised from Dr Ray Muzyka, will be an actual improved ending and not some crappy DLC that just "explains" the current ending for those of us "that don't get it".  Bioware is on shakey ground here if you think about it.  DA fans were disappointed in DA2, they just made the most expensive game in history (SWTOR) and now this.  They could lose a chunk of their fanbase if they don't swallow their pride and do the right thing.

Remember people:  HOLD THE LINE

I don't believe Bioware said anything about artistic integrity themselves.

They did. You can check the statement of Mr Muzyka if you want an exemple, it's just a few line but it's here.

[FatalX7.0]

Siegdrifa wrote...

FatalX7.0 wrote...

DrowNoble wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

E.D. Kain made another article.

Link: Forbes article


What is your opinion?

Well I agree with the article 100%.

Bioware used to say that we co-made the game with the developers.  They always had good interaction between us and them.  Now, suddenly, they are crying foul and claiming "artistic integrity" and pretty much going back on their previous stance.

Hopefully come April the "fix" we were promised from Dr Ray Muzyka, will be an actual improved ending and not some crappy DLC that just "explains" the current ending for those of us "that don't get it".  Bioware is on shakey ground here if you think about it.  DA fans were disappointed in DA2, they just made the most expensive game in history (SWTOR) and now this.  They could lose a chunk of their fanbase if they don't swallow their pride and do the right thing.

Remember people:  HOLD THE LINE

I don't believe Bioware said anything about artistic integrity themselves.

They did. You can check the statement of Mr Muzyka if you want an exemple, it's just a few line but it's here.

Oh.

I believe passionately that games are an
art form, and that the power of our medium flows from our audience, who
are deeply involved in how the story unfolds, and who have the
uncontested right to provide constructive criticism. At the same time, I
also believe in and support the artistic choices made by the
development team.  The team and I have been thinking hard about how to
best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still
maintaining the artistic integrity of the game.

That?