Ce sujet est fermé
Yes. Anything involving that little brat's model should be removed.
Shepard sees a child die, big whoop. He's seen at least ashley/kaidan die, and who knows how many other friends/allies depending on your playthroughs.
Yet, all of a sudden, he starts having nightmares about this stupid kid he never even knew?
Should the Star Child be removed completely?
Débuté par
Carlthestrange
, mars 30 2012 08:10
Retour en haut
#152
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:17
PandaThing
-
- Members
- 138 messages
Either removed, or made into a rational and appropriately foreshadowed plot element.
#153
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:18
vlherg
-
- Members
- 76 messages
Yes, ditch the space kid.
Anderson dies, crucible fires up, the outcome depends on your war assets from failure to happy ending with little blue children. Then we get epilogues.
Anderson dies, crucible fires up, the outcome depends on your war assets from failure to happy ending with little blue children. Then we get epilogues.
#154
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:19
Carlthestrange
-
- Members
- 3 622 messages
Well, i'm going to let this debate cook overnight on its own, and check in later, as I have to be up for work in 7 hours, so I should get some sleep.
#155
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:19
Verit
-
- Members
- 844 messages
It should be removed, but Bioware won't do it. That said, I'm fine with it staying if there are actual alternate endings.
#156
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:22
His Name was HYR!!
-
- Members
- 9 145 messages
Star Child? More like Space Bieber.
Whenever I see him die in those dreams I go "Burn, Bieber! Burn!"
Whenever I see him die in those dreams I go "Burn, Bieber! Burn!"
#157
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:22
MrGone
-
- Members
- 551 messages
Actually, this is a topic I've given some thought, and the answer is yes. A thousand times yes.
Here's why:
I don't think the basic concepts for the three endings are out and out atrocious. The ability to attempt to control or destroy the Reapers is totally consistent with the goals of the Illusive Man and Shepard throughout. The Synthesis option is stupis, but I'm glad there IS "a third option".
The real problem is in the delivery of these variations. WE DO NOT NEED SOME MAGICAL CHARACTER EXPLAINING EVERYTHING FOR US.
The following (and this is a bit text wally, and uses some ideas I brought up here, so you're warned) is just an example of how to accomplish similar ends without using that stupid, stupid, kid.
If Shepard linked up the Crucible, and say, discovered that the crucible sent out ONE message in every language it knew (which confuses everyone but him (and Javik) as he understands Prothean) saying "Catalyst?" and it was a puzzle, that would literally be all you need for information from the machine. Then Shepard could figure out what that meant: the machine needed essentially, targeting parameters to work, to put an individual insided of a chamber that opens up on the machine, the big apparently empty chamber of that "orb" on it, for it to target the rest of its species. Shepard thinks he has to put a REAPER in there, and it will kill them all.
Then this is where the Illusive Man would step in via a conversation sequence, disagreeing. Saying yes it requires a sentient to go inside - in all likelihood killing whoever that is, the meaning of the word "Catalyst" implies that - but that it makes no sense that it targets that individual's species. It makes sense if it follows the Catalyst's command. It has to be something direct, something simple, but it must scan a person's being and it is through this scan that their command is determined.
The conflict is one of faith, and if you trust TIM, which in my envisioning, you can, as if you saved the collector base the main thing TIM figures out is how to reverse his own indoctrination while maintaining his connection to the reapers, essentially forcibly evolving himself into that Reaperized TIM we see with the ability to control others, but genuinely free from the Reaper's influence (represented with glowing RED eyes - both to indicate the Renegade nature and match the Reapers dominance themselves).
You can choose to agree with TIM or not, but it comes down to a choice of three options again, but different options: how to "strike the match" and initiate the machine. If you let TIM jump in and try to take control of the Reapers, try to capture one yourself and put it in there in the hopes that it will target the rest for destruction, or jump in YOURSELF to try and "command" the Reapers to go away.
If you try to get a Reaper in there, Shepard realizes that there is ONLY one way. Shepard sends a message (either through TIM, who's linked to Reapers or some other means, unsure of yet) to Harbinger to meet him in the opening center of the Crucible - a challenge. Harbinger comes screaming into the open Citadel, disengaging from Fleet combat (and getting damaged as he turns) and heading toward Shepard, trying to destory this pissant once and for all. The Normandy heads in after him, and to save Shepard if possible.
Enter Harbinger final Boss Battle - whether with Player controlling Normandy via Joker, or as Shepard on the interior of the Crucible chamber (we've had mag lev boot space-walk fights before, see ME1) it is glorious and epic. The outcomes are a bit variable, as Harbinger can either destroy the Normandy trapping Shepard with him or not - determined by War Assets since the more damage done to Harbinger in the fleet battle before hand, the less he's able to do here. As Harbinger slowly dies Shepard and he have a last conversation, you realize that Reaper "indoctrination" is just a side affect to coming into direct contact with a powerful mind, and perhaps we learn slightly more about the Reapers as the Crucible starts powering up.
There are various outcomes here:
1) Shep and Harbinger are in the Crucible both dying. The Crucible reads them as dying and commits to this "future". It sends out a wave of doom and destruction. This wave is either too strong or too weak depending on the strength of the Crucible (determined by your Crucible related War Assets). The Crucible scans the dead reaper as command to copy - DEATH being the order.
A) If strong - it wipes out Humanity AND the Reapers by sending a "termination signal" - Humans commit suiced en masse, so do the Reapers, at first, by killing themselves.
If Weak, and the Crucible is crumbling under it's own energy . . . it's just a damn big explosion that starts wiping out everyithing in its wake. Reapers, ships, the Crucible, Relays, planets. BAD END.
2) Harbinger is in the Crucible Dying. Same as in 1 with variations on strength except if strong, the Termination signal is only for the other Reapers. The weak crucible termination wave is still highly destructive, wiping out everything in its path.
3) Shepard's in the Crucible, Alive and well having ignored the Illusive Man's words. The Crucible starts a "scan" that tears Shepard apart, atom by atom, learning his parameters as Shepard's thoughts, deeds and actions all flash before his eyes. Outside the Machine begins powering up. Harbinger breaks away from fleet combat, knowing something is wrong with this machine activating and starts to attack it.
A) If Renegade and If War assets are high, The Normandy leads the charge to destroy Harbinger before he can accomplish his goal. Harbinger dies in a hail of destruction and the scan keeps going, faster and faster, as Shepard's being, his very essence is getting ripped assunder and the last thing she thinks is "STOP!"
The Crucible fires a signal wave that does just that: it stops. It causes Reapers, and all their technology to simply stop functioning. The Reapers collapse, but the Mass Relays grind to a halt, and then so do the Mass Effect cores BASED off that technology in starships. And do the cores in all of the weapons and shields, and on and on and on. It's a win, but at great cost.
If Paragon and War Assets are high, The Normandy leads the charge to destroy Harbinger before he can
accomplish his goal. Harbinger dies in a hail of destruction and the
scan keeps going, faster and faster, as Shepard's being, his very
essence is getting ripped assunder and the last thing she thinks is
"SLEEP . . . "
The Crucible fires a signal wave that causes the Reapers to get . . . "tired". They start committing to a retreat back to Dark Space, weakened and confused, many are further destroyed in their route. The Mass Relays themselves grind to a halt. Not destroyed, just . . . dormant. The Reapers are pushed back and away, and there was less cost to but who knows for how long? Until the next "cycle"?
C) If War Assets are too low - Harbinger starts dismantling the Crucible, damaging it just enough that regardless of Shepard's command, it's much weaker, and the Crucible proceeds to explode afterwards. This sends out a signal wave that simply turns off shields for everything that uses mass effect fields. This is more beneficial for the Victory Fleet than not, as fighting the Reapers, their shields are pretty much useless as is. This also has two outcomes:
Alpha) War Assets are somewhere in the mid-high range, too low to stop harbinger, but pretty good. The combined fleets win the battle for Earth and stop the Reaper forces there once the playing field is leveled. It's at great cost to be sure, and this is just one battle, but the races are united and will fight the reaper threat for as long as they need to. Shepard gave them a chance, and that's all they could ever ask for.
Beta) War Assets are in the mid-low range, too low to stop harbinger, but not terrible. The combined fleets win the Battle for Earth and stop the Reaper forces there once the playing field is leveled. However, the cost is tremendous. Hackett and most strong leadership are dead, the few ships that remain are bickering, and it looks bleak, as the Reapers were stopped at one planet, sure, but it might not be enough. They're still around, and the future is uncertain.
Omega) War Assets are too low, period. Despite the edge, the Reapers win the battle for Earth, and the last serious resistance of the Citadel races is put to bed. BAD END.
4) The Illusive Man gets inside the Crucible when Shepard agrees with him, that perhaps he really DOES have what it takes to stop the Reapers. That he can transmit the indoctrination signal back ON the Reapers due to his integrated technology. This still has two outcomes
A) If the Collector base destroyed, well, try as he might, TIM cannot resist the Indoctrination fully. When the crucible scans him, it sees the connections between the human mind and the Reaper brain, and it acts as a gigantic amplifier of Reaper indoctrination signals. Humanity everywhere becomes indoctrinated all at once. Humans turn on their allies, and as they make up a huge chunk of the victory fleet they start immediately pushing back against them, betraying and murdering them horribly. Humanity is enslaved and become the next "collectors" for the following cycle, as the Reapers remain undaunted.
If the Collector Base was kept, TIM IS able to remain in control and finally resist the yoke of Indoctrination. As he burns in the scans of the crucible, he's able to send out his final command, the thing he's always so good at; "ENSLAVE.".
It sends out a command re-write of Reaper technology and keyed to human minds. Reapers become the unwilling slaves and pets of humanity. Increible weapons to be used at their disposal. Galactic civilization is saved, but it is at the mercy of one race, now their decided better: humanity.
Wow. OK, I kind of went off there.
Anyway, look at all of that - without using the Starchild, I came up with like, 8 rather distinct endings. That used all the other factors and didn't need a whole bunch of nonsense information. There would still be unresolved questions in many and I'd say follow that up with a funeral scene (for either Shep or Anderson) to set the tone for the conclusion in the variations that allow it, and then possibly a few epilogue moments as well ,but yeah, guess what . . . no starchild!
Here's why:
I don't think the basic concepts for the three endings are out and out atrocious. The ability to attempt to control or destroy the Reapers is totally consistent with the goals of the Illusive Man and Shepard throughout. The Synthesis option is stupis, but I'm glad there IS "a third option".
The real problem is in the delivery of these variations. WE DO NOT NEED SOME MAGICAL CHARACTER EXPLAINING EVERYTHING FOR US.
The following (and this is a bit text wally, and uses some ideas I brought up here, so you're warned) is just an example of how to accomplish similar ends without using that stupid, stupid, kid.
If Shepard linked up the Crucible, and say, discovered that the crucible sent out ONE message in every language it knew (which confuses everyone but him (and Javik) as he understands Prothean) saying "Catalyst?" and it was a puzzle, that would literally be all you need for information from the machine. Then Shepard could figure out what that meant: the machine needed essentially, targeting parameters to work, to put an individual insided of a chamber that opens up on the machine, the big apparently empty chamber of that "orb" on it, for it to target the rest of its species. Shepard thinks he has to put a REAPER in there, and it will kill them all.
Then this is where the Illusive Man would step in via a conversation sequence, disagreeing. Saying yes it requires a sentient to go inside - in all likelihood killing whoever that is, the meaning of the word "Catalyst" implies that - but that it makes no sense that it targets that individual's species. It makes sense if it follows the Catalyst's command. It has to be something direct, something simple, but it must scan a person's being and it is through this scan that their command is determined.
The conflict is one of faith, and if you trust TIM, which in my envisioning, you can, as if you saved the collector base the main thing TIM figures out is how to reverse his own indoctrination while maintaining his connection to the reapers, essentially forcibly evolving himself into that Reaperized TIM we see with the ability to control others, but genuinely free from the Reaper's influence (represented with glowing RED eyes - both to indicate the Renegade nature and match the Reapers dominance themselves).
You can choose to agree with TIM or not, but it comes down to a choice of three options again, but different options: how to "strike the match" and initiate the machine. If you let TIM jump in and try to take control of the Reapers, try to capture one yourself and put it in there in the hopes that it will target the rest for destruction, or jump in YOURSELF to try and "command" the Reapers to go away.
If you try to get a Reaper in there, Shepard realizes that there is ONLY one way. Shepard sends a message (either through TIM, who's linked to Reapers or some other means, unsure of yet) to Harbinger to meet him in the opening center of the Crucible - a challenge. Harbinger comes screaming into the open Citadel, disengaging from Fleet combat (and getting damaged as he turns) and heading toward Shepard, trying to destory this pissant once and for all. The Normandy heads in after him, and to save Shepard if possible.
Enter Harbinger final Boss Battle - whether with Player controlling Normandy via Joker, or as Shepard on the interior of the Crucible chamber (we've had mag lev boot space-walk fights before, see ME1) it is glorious and epic. The outcomes are a bit variable, as Harbinger can either destroy the Normandy trapping Shepard with him or not - determined by War Assets since the more damage done to Harbinger in the fleet battle before hand, the less he's able to do here. As Harbinger slowly dies Shepard and he have a last conversation, you realize that Reaper "indoctrination" is just a side affect to coming into direct contact with a powerful mind, and perhaps we learn slightly more about the Reapers as the Crucible starts powering up.
There are various outcomes here:
1) Shep and Harbinger are in the Crucible both dying. The Crucible reads them as dying and commits to this "future". It sends out a wave of doom and destruction. This wave is either too strong or too weak depending on the strength of the Crucible (determined by your Crucible related War Assets). The Crucible scans the dead reaper as command to copy - DEATH being the order.
A) If strong - it wipes out Humanity AND the Reapers by sending a "termination signal" - Humans commit suiced en masse, so do the Reapers, at first, by killing themselves.
If Weak, and the Crucible is crumbling under it's own energy . . . it's just a damn big explosion that starts wiping out everyithing in its wake. Reapers, ships, the Crucible, Relays, planets. BAD END. 2) Harbinger is in the Crucible Dying. Same as in 1 with variations on strength except if strong, the Termination signal is only for the other Reapers. The weak crucible termination wave is still highly destructive, wiping out everything in its path.
3) Shepard's in the Crucible, Alive and well having ignored the Illusive Man's words. The Crucible starts a "scan" that tears Shepard apart, atom by atom, learning his parameters as Shepard's thoughts, deeds and actions all flash before his eyes. Outside the Machine begins powering up. Harbinger breaks away from fleet combat, knowing something is wrong with this machine activating and starts to attack it.
A) If Renegade and If War assets are high, The Normandy leads the charge to destroy Harbinger before he can accomplish his goal. Harbinger dies in a hail of destruction and the scan keeps going, faster and faster, as Shepard's being, his very essence is getting ripped assunder and the last thing she thinks is "STOP!"
The Crucible fires a signal wave that does just that: it stops. It causes Reapers, and all their technology to simply stop functioning. The Reapers collapse, but the Mass Relays grind to a halt, and then so do the Mass Effect cores BASED off that technology in starships. And do the cores in all of the weapons and shields, and on and on and on. It's a win, but at great cost.
If Paragon and War Assets are high, The Normandy leads the charge to destroy Harbinger before he can accomplish his goal. Harbinger dies in a hail of destruction and the
scan keeps going, faster and faster, as Shepard's being, his very
essence is getting ripped assunder and the last thing she thinks is
"SLEEP . . . "
The Crucible fires a signal wave that causes the Reapers to get . . . "tired". They start committing to a retreat back to Dark Space, weakened and confused, many are further destroyed in their route. The Mass Relays themselves grind to a halt. Not destroyed, just . . . dormant. The Reapers are pushed back and away, and there was less cost to but who knows for how long? Until the next "cycle"?
C) If War Assets are too low - Harbinger starts dismantling the Crucible, damaging it just enough that regardless of Shepard's command, it's much weaker, and the Crucible proceeds to explode afterwards. This sends out a signal wave that simply turns off shields for everything that uses mass effect fields. This is more beneficial for the Victory Fleet than not, as fighting the Reapers, their shields are pretty much useless as is. This also has two outcomes:
Alpha) War Assets are somewhere in the mid-high range, too low to stop harbinger, but pretty good. The combined fleets win the battle for Earth and stop the Reaper forces there once the playing field is leveled. It's at great cost to be sure, and this is just one battle, but the races are united and will fight the reaper threat for as long as they need to. Shepard gave them a chance, and that's all they could ever ask for.
Beta) War Assets are in the mid-low range, too low to stop harbinger, but not terrible. The combined fleets win the Battle for Earth and stop the Reaper forces there once the playing field is leveled. However, the cost is tremendous. Hackett and most strong leadership are dead, the few ships that remain are bickering, and it looks bleak, as the Reapers were stopped at one planet, sure, but it might not be enough. They're still around, and the future is uncertain.
Omega) War Assets are too low, period. Despite the edge, the Reapers win the battle for Earth, and the last serious resistance of the Citadel races is put to bed. BAD END.
4) The Illusive Man gets inside the Crucible when Shepard agrees with him, that perhaps he really DOES have what it takes to stop the Reapers. That he can transmit the indoctrination signal back ON the Reapers due to his integrated technology. This still has two outcomes
A) If the Collector base destroyed, well, try as he might, TIM cannot resist the Indoctrination fully. When the crucible scans him, it sees the connections between the human mind and the Reaper brain, and it acts as a gigantic amplifier of Reaper indoctrination signals. Humanity everywhere becomes indoctrinated all at once. Humans turn on their allies, and as they make up a huge chunk of the victory fleet they start immediately pushing back against them, betraying and murdering them horribly. Humanity is enslaved and become the next "collectors" for the following cycle, as the Reapers remain undaunted.
If the Collector Base was kept, TIM IS able to remain in control and finally resist the yoke of Indoctrination. As he burns in the scans of the crucible, he's able to send out his final command, the thing he's always so good at; "ENSLAVE.". It sends out a command re-write of Reaper technology and keyed to human minds. Reapers become the unwilling slaves and pets of humanity. Increible weapons to be used at their disposal. Galactic civilization is saved, but it is at the mercy of one race, now their decided better: humanity.
Wow. OK, I kind of went off there.
Anyway, look at all of that - without using the Starchild, I came up with like, 8 rather distinct endings. That used all the other factors and didn't need a whole bunch of nonsense information. There would still be unresolved questions in many and I'd say follow that up with a funeral scene (for either Shep or Anderson) to set the tone for the conclusion in the variations that allow it, and then possibly a few epilogue moments as well ,but yeah, guess what . . . no starchild!
#158
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:25
Grumpy-Mcfart
-
- Members
- 719 messages
Fruit of the Doom wrote...
Either removed completely or revealed to be a indoctrination induced hallucination.
The cutscene where the kid is killed in the beginning is fine. Good memories.
Dreams were annoying. Felt like a pompous art student was shoving something grotesquely pretentious in my face while shouting at me to appreciate it.
total agreement.
howvere I did like how the dream sequences included whispers from dead former squadmates as the game wnet on.
they were still an annoyance, though.
#159
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:25
Keithhy
-
- Members
- 232 messages
Yes. If there must be some confrontation at the end - which is actually a good idea - then I want to talk to Harbinger, and not the little god brat. Abolish the three choices as they stand, let us talk to Harby for a bit - a *real* conversation, thank you very much, and then let us win, so that we can actually feel like we've won.
Modifié par Keithhy, 30 mars 2012 - 10:26 .
#161
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:27
DnVill
-
- Members
- 1 145 messages
Yes. Get rid of the spacebrat. It's existence invalidates Sovereign and the entire storyline of ME1
#162
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:31
Kingthlayer
-
- Members
- 1 542 messages
Yes, as should the child in the opening, as should the dreams.
#163
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:32
jumpingkaede
-
- Members
- 1 411 messages
Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...
Fruit of the Doom wrote...
Either removed completely or revealed to be a indoctrination induced hallucination.
The cutscene where the kid is killed in the beginning is fine. Good memories.
Dreams were annoying. Felt like a pompous art student was shoving something grotesquely pretentious in my face while shouting at me to appreciate it.
total agreement.
howvere I did like how the dream sequences included whispers from dead former squadmates as the game wnet on.
they were still an annoyance, though.
My god, I rued the dream sequences. Moving in slow motion, catching up to a kid, hearing loud Reaper noises then fire.
What was the point of that Bioware? At least let me move normal speed. The whole thing is like the Fade in DA:O except without the attribute boosts.
If I wanted an artsy game I'd go play something by Team ICO.
Modifié par jumpingkaede, 30 mars 2012 - 10:32 .
#164
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:34
ZombifiedJake
-
- Members
- 434 messages
Trakarg wrote...
Yes. Anything involving that little brat's model should be removed.
Shepard sees a child die, big whoop. He's seen at least ashley/kaidan die, and who knows how many other friends/allies depending on your playthroughs.
Yet, all of a sudden, he starts having nightmares about this stupid kid he never even knew?
Would have been kind of cool to see the dead Virmire
Modifié par ZombifiedJake, 30 mars 2012 - 10:34 .
#165
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:35
Can0fCorn
-
- Members
- 306 messages
If he is removed completely I would be happy. I would pretend the whole thing never happened.
#166
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:36
Mark Havel
-
- Members
- 28 messages
He should be removed as he's an avatar of all the non-sense that this "choose your divine intervention" ending is.He represents the magical wand that disposes of the Reaper's threat with a mere act of will that was the worse way to end the Mass Effect series.
Modifié par Mark Havel, 30 mars 2012 - 10:39 .
#167
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:36
2484Stryker
-
- Members
- 1 526 messages
Remove vent brat? Go right ahead. I always find the idea of this one entity asserting its own irrational logic on the galaxy for all generations to be quite repulsive and disgusting.
If only Bioware would have let me empty an entire clip of ammo into this brat...sad...
If only Bioware would have let me empty an entire clip of ammo into this brat...sad...
#168
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:37
KingZayd
-
- Members
- 5 344 messages
even if they don't change the endings, deleting the space child makes more sense than not deleting.
#169
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:38
Mushufasa1512
-
- Members
- 302 messages
You sit there with anderson. Hit the explode button after the crucible hooks up with the citadel. If EMS is high enough your squad saves you. Reapers exploded. Game over.
#170
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:39
DJBare
-
- Members
- 6 510 messages
No, leave him there, just give my Shepard a chance to cross a few wires to fry the little #@£&
#171
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:39
KingZayd
-
- Members
- 5 344 messages
ZombifiedJake wrote...
Trakarg wrote...
Yes. Anything involving that little brat's model should be removed.
Shepard sees a child die, big whoop. He's seen at least ashley/kaidan die, and who knows how many other friends/allies depending on your playthroughs.
Yet, all of a sudden, he starts having nightmares about this stupid kid he never even knew?
Would have been kind of cool to see the dead Virmiresurvivor(lol) squadmate as the avatar, rather than some useless kid with no emotional attachment. But I still need to point out that the spacegod thing was stupid, and having a better avatar wouldn't have made me accept the ending.
definitely would be more sensible, and would be more convincing too, since I think most people ended up hating the VS, and therefore making the Vermire Dead one of the most mourned.
#172
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:43
Hydralysk
-
- Members
- 1 090 messages
If IT isn't the way they go they at least need to give Shepard the option to refute his 'logic' and let that branch into a new ending. His introduction annoys me, but it's more how Shepard just accepts his logic as indisputable that really ruins the ending.
#173
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:48
RedNanaki
-
- Members
- 378 messages
Yes, he manages to break the game in something like 2 minutes.
I saw this fan made ending where the only difference was that they had cut the scene with the Catalyst and the Normandy and it showed the good destroy ending... and it was better. I find that to be very sad.
I saw this fan made ending where the only difference was that they had cut the scene with the Catalyst and the Normandy and it showed the good destroy ending... and it was better. I find that to be very sad.
#174
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:55
Jeb231
-
- Members
- 309 messages
Doesn't have to be in case of IT but if not then yes, Starbrat has to go I'm afraid.
#175
Posté 30 mars 2012 - 10:55
DOYOURLABS
-
- Members
- 1 731 messages
Either have him make sense, have an opportunity to argue with him, or get rid of him
