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The Crucible?


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#1
Wolfen919

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Question: Did any of you expect the Crucible to behave differently?

My thoughts: 

I just now realized this, but wouldn't the Crucible have been better off serving as some sort of Reaper shield removal device?

It was cool and all to think that the superweapon would destroy the Reapers, but with all the War Assests in the game, it would have been better to see that the work put towards those assests have some effect. With the shields down, then it would have been all about how prepared Shepard was into gathering an army worthy of defeating the Reapers. Simply having a nuke that destroys the Reapers entirely wouldn't have been satisfactory in my opinion.

Any other differing opinions on how the Crucible should have operated?


edit: Just wish the War Assets mattered at least a little bit, and maybe even have some of the races be obliterated/sacrificed if you didn't have XX asset; y'know similar to ME2.

Modifié par Wolfen919, 30 mars 2012 - 10:33 .


#2
Grand Wazoo

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My thoughts? Stupid plot device, no thanks.

#3
xlava

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It should've been some sort of technological enhancement, imo. I wanted to see the fleets in action for real. Seeing Joker do his thing in the cockpit of the Normandy flying around blowing Reapers apart in style with new weapons would've been ten times as fun as the end of ME2, which was in and of itself outstanding.

Having it as a simple "auto win button" was kind of Gears of War 3 esqe and sort of silly.

#4
Dendio1

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Crucible as a shield remover would be terribly predictable. Look for such a thing in any 90's space movie

#5
Wolfen919

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I agree, but I wasn't I really suggesting that the Crucible's presentation is in question, but whether it's outcome should have changed. Shield removal would have at least given the War Assets a purpose, no?


edit: I also agree that the "auto win button" was a bit lame. As far as "stupid plot device" goes, well... how else would you expect to win against a technologically advanced machine race? Codec (or some NPC) stated that Reapers mostly rely on shields to withstand most attacks.

Modifié par Wolfen919, 30 mars 2012 - 08:50 .


#6
BadlyBrowned

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Dendio1 wrote...

Crucible as a shield remover would be terribly predictable. Look for such a thing in any 90's space movie


.....so? Gotta be hipster just cause?

Anyways, the Crucible had a little too much of a MacGuffin feel to it for my taste. 

#7
Wolfen919

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BadlyBrowned wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Crucible as a shield remover would be terribly predictable. Look for such a thing in any 90's space movie


.....so? Gotta be hipster just cause?

Anyways, the Crucible had a little too much of a MacGuffin feel to it for my taste. 


Perhaps, but maybe I'm not understanding how some of you players expected the series to end? Without a super-weapon, were Shepard and gang expected to steal some sort of reaper-tech to use against the reapers? Maybe... but against the entire reaper fleet? Not entirely sure if that would have worked.

Modifié par Wolfen919, 30 mars 2012 - 08:52 .


#8
Shepard Wins

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My thoughts on the Crucible? Poorly written, outright disaster from the moment we've found out it's been planned throughout all cycles, expected it to be either a) a run of the mill superweapon like the Death Star or B) a Reaper trap that would destroy its creators.

#9
pettrox

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the crucible was bad i didnt like it i thought that the point of ME3 was for the Fleet to win not have a super weapon...
  • Orikon aime ceci

#10
Dark Specie

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What I thought about the Crucible? Well, I'll admit that considering that we're facing thousands of nigh-invulnerable space cthulhus, a Macguffin or the like would be needed. So, I sorta expected something like the Crucible, and didn't mind it, as such. I wish it had been less of an "insta win" button though - should have been something that damages/weakens the Reapers and then the rest'd have been up to your assets.

Modifié par Dark Specie, 30 mars 2012 - 09:01 .


#11
Navasha

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Its a reaper womb. It adds reaper creation functionality to the citadel. Now if they just get enough bodies beamed up there for raw material.

#12
Ratimir

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Trap.

I've read a lot of comments saying things like "95% of ME3 is fantastic, but the other 5%..." or "ME3 was everything we could have hoped for, up until the last ten minutes". I disagree. I'm not saying its bad, by any stretch, but it has other problems as well, even if they're overshadowed by the collosus of the ending. And the Crucible is the worst of them. It alone would make ME3 the worst of the series, even without the horrible, horrible ending. But it can be fixed. Even better, it can be fixed as part of fixing the ending, and the fix for one flows naturally into the fix for the other.

What is wrong with the Crucible? Everything:

Oh look, lost prothean plans for a superweapon that can defeat the Reapers. Unlikely.
Wow, and we found them at exactly the same time that the Reapers attacked. Ridiculously unlikely.
And we don't know what it is, what it does or how it works, but we're pretty sure it'll destroy the Reapers. Why, exactly?
And these plans written in a millenia dead alien language are so easy to read. Uh, sure.
And Vigil never said "Oh, and if you don't get there in time to stop Saren, the only other chance you've got is to complete the crucible". Apparently VI stands for Village Idiot.
And the beacons that were so important back in ME1 neglected to mention this incredibly convenient device. Probably programmed by the same morons as Vigil.

Then it goes beyond the implausible and the silly and gets into true Whiskey Tango Foxtrot territory:
It wasn't designed by the Proteans after all, it was designed by an untold number of species over the course of aeons. Even though none of them knew what it was or how it worked.
And every single cycle, despite the builders and most of their technology and records being wiped out by the reapers, the plans still managed to survive and get passed on.
And somehow, despite having NFI how this thing works or what it does, we are certain that all we need to complete it is the mysterious 'catalyst'. Once again, why are we so sure?
And despite the fact that nobody but the keepers and the reapers really has a clue how the Citadel works, and the fact that nobody knew the Citadel was the catalyst, the Catalyst and the Crucible connect and interface perfectly.

Is there a single 'fact' revealed about the Crucible at any point in the game that isn't, at the very least, unlikely, and at the extreme, bordering impossible? (And I think I'm being charitable including the word 'bordering')

Finding something like this right now is too good to be true. It's too convenient. It's like fleeing a battle station the size of a moon and being pursued by only four unshielded fighters...

Admiral Ackar can draw the obvious conclusion from all this.

IT'S A TRAP!

Here's my alternate theory:

The Crucible is yet another Reaper backup plan.

It is not passed from victim race to victim race, but instead planted by the reapers each cycle.

Eva was not on Mars to recover the plans, she was there to plant them. Acting on the orders of Harbinger, via his little **** TIM. (or if you don't think TIM is sufficiently indoctrinated so early, then Harbinger plants the plans where Cerberus will find them, then manipulates TIM into thinking that it'd be a great idea to plant the plans on the Alliance and let them take care of the hard work of building the damn thing).

Why would the Reapers do this?

Easy. Because it gives all your victims a false hope to cling to and work towards, wasting all their resources on a pointless piece of junk instead of putting their clever little heads together and coming up with something that could really hurt you. Like, I dunno, a way to sneak onto the Citadel and disable it, stranding your entire race in Dark Space. Because if you keep those meddling kids busy chasing red herrings, you might just get away with it.

Occam's Razor is definitely on my side.

The next bit is more tenuous and speculative, but is where everything connects in to fixing the ending.

So far, I've assumed that the crucible is nothing but a red herring. A great big machine that does nothing but waste resources (and go ping). But I think it's more likely that the Reapers would kill two birds with one stone by having their victims build something for them. Plus there's a sort of vicious humour to be had in the idea that the epic project that the victims believe to be their only hope is in fact the very thing that will destroy them.

What do I think it does? I think it makes Reapers.

Not the bodies. We've seen a little of how that's done in ME2. I think the Crucible creates the mind of a Reaper. This doesn't just come from nowhere, of course. It's built and corrupted from the minds of one or more organics. It's like indoctrination to the nth degree. The crucible is both the means of their conversion and the process of their selection. Only the best, brightest and boldest could ever complete and trigger the crucible, and that's exactly who the Reapers want.

I can't imagine what the full process of conversion might involve, but I can imagine how it might start. You offer the victim a choice:
Control the Reapers - And he begins to think of the Reapers as being an ally rather than a threat.
Merge with Synthetics - And he begins to accept the idea of being an organic/synthetic hybrid. Such as a Reaper.
Destroy the Reapers, but also destroy some of your own allies - And he accepts the idea of genocide being acceptable as a means to an end. And you've got him thinking like a Reaper already...

It's an Iocaine Gambit: every choice is toxic. The only winning move is not to play.

So how does this help us fix the game? Well, I'm not going to try and write a new ending in any depth, but here's my brief proposal:

We play out exactly the same as before. But when we're offered the RGB poison, we reject it. We tell the catalyst to shove its 'choices' up its presidium. Cut to groundside. The player is now in control of Anderson (with Coats as squadmate). We play through the conduit rush again from their perspective. We see Shep go down. Before we can get to her, a Brute appears. Grabs Shep surprisingly gently and carries her into the beam, which promptly turns off. Hammer's in rough shape, but a voice comes over the comms: Major Kirrahee. "Hold the line, Hammer. Help is coming." Epic battle ensues, showing some of those hard won war assets: Krogan cavalry, Liara's Commandoes, Elcor Heavy Infantry, Salarian STG, Aria's Blood Pack, Jack's Biotic Artillery, pretty much any ground troops on the war assets list (damnit Bioware, we earned this), maybe even use some of our own multiplayer characters. Hammer is successfully extracted, Anderson gets to kill a Reaper. Using the Ilos Conduit, a daring rescue plucks Shep from the Crucible. Shep reveals what was being done to her and what the crucible really is.

Okay, so we've got Shep back, we've retconned the inane ending into a Reaper mind-game, and we've established that the Crucible is a trap, although not all the details have come out yet. From here, there's a thousand ways the story could go, so if you don't like the rest, I'm not so bothered.

We track down the illusive man, find out what he knows about the origin of the crucible plans and kill him (cutscene or dialogue, not boss battle). With this intel and the plans from Mars, our techs develop a way to frack with the Crucible. With a little modification, it can be turned against the Reapers, attacking them mentally and damaging their indoctrination. The personality that was turned into the dominant mind of the Reaper can regain control. There's only one thing. Shep will have to go back to the Citadel. And this time the Reapers will be on guard. Epic space battle to get onto the Citadel, featuring (once again) those War Assets we wasted so much time collecting. Harbinger will be the boss battle, in his shiny new robot form (similar concept to EDI, but a lot bigger and nastier). After the fight, Shepard uses the repurposed Crucible. Effect depends on War Assets. Specifically on the scientists, engineers, technicians, etc. The stronger your analysis/design team, the more effective their modifications to the Crucible. At worst, the Reapers falter before reasserting control. At best, the Reapers are thoroughly defeated in one fell swoop.Various degrees of middle ground, with the most common one being that some Reapers remain free, most convert back, leading to Reaper civil war, which even if the deconverted reapers lose, will soften them up to the point where the galactic alliance can actually win the war head to head.

#13
cogsandcurls

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Honestly, once somebody suggested it might be a Reaper trap I was disappointed that it didn't turn out to be just that. I think the "generations of people have slowly built this thing that nobody knows what is does" thing is highly suspect.

#14
ZombifiedJake

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EDIT: Maybe not a deus ex machina by definition, but it certainly felt that way.

Uniting the galaxy should have been the sole focus.

Modifié par ZombifiedJake, 30 mars 2012 - 09:17 .


#15
Hogge87

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My thoughts were that it'd be some kind of large scale ECM-device or a strong local network router. Something that would exploit the fact that reapers aren't organic and rely on advanced sensors.

#16
mr.surv

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Now I just think about one thing.


All races gather to build huge device, and one of the option is "LOL destroy it"


Other thing.

We see that crucible is designed to connect with Citadel SOO----> why Protheans or other races didn't connect it with Citadel?
Why there's no clue in blueprints about it?

#17
NoUserNameHere

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I'd think there were better ways to handle it as some sort of secret weapon.

#18
ediskrad327

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i wish it did in fact destroy the reapers and not Galactic society

#19
VerdantSF

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Dumbo's Feather. The fact that it got all these different factions to work together was a lot more important than the Crucible itself.

#20
Warod

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A few points :

1st : Using the mass relays (their tech, the one that is supposed to be a liability for us organics) against the reapers. Sweet sweet irony

2nd : Built and improved cycle after cycle? No way that makes no sense. Fail-safe device built by the same people that built the reapers in case the reapers got too powerful? In case it was propheticised that only a United Galaxy could defeat them? I could live with that.

3rd : They spent how many months building it? And after all that time they had no idea how it worked? Was it supposed to work just by plugging it on the Citadel? Didn't it need a program to make it work? That's like saying "Yeah I'm going to plug this mouse in my computer. What? I need a driver? Oh that's cool see the Computer has pre-programmed drivers for it"

That's why it is such a crappy plot device.

#21
PandaThing

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The crucible should have been portrayed as a 'missing piece' of the citadel, fitting in nicely with the first race creating the reapers and the citadel. The crucible was the key to controlling reapers/ mass relays etc, and they removed it.

Over time as races began to understand more about the citadel, they also were able to begin construction of the missing section.

Think 'The crucible IS the catylist'

Appropriate foreshadowing and startling realization at the end of the game would have made this perfect.

#22
tetsutsuru

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I was just as skeptical as my Shepard, regarding the Crucible. One superweapon against the Reapers, yeah okayyy.... I'll take whatever help I can get. Hope it does... something.

As far as a plot device, it is an interesting concept but not very well thought-out. One of the things that bothered me about it was that, it's been determined that the "device" IS a "weapon", and not a Prothean snow cone maker, or espresso machine. At some point in its construction, someone should have at least been able to determine what it does. Whether it is a mass accelerator, or fires a pulse, electricity, bullets, missiles, or transforms into a giant mech and whacks the Reapers with a stick. It's just ridiculous being completely oblivious about it, specially considering "we've got the best scientific minds working on it 'round the clock", from multiple races, even including the Rachni.

If you have the comprehension enough to determine what something is, and the means enough to construct it, it follows that you have the capacity to understand how it's supposed to work.

Modifié par tetsutsuru, 30 mars 2012 - 09:32 .


#23
KingZayd

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or awesome space gun.

#24
humes spork

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Dendio1 wrote...

Crucible as a shield remover would be terribly predictable. Look for such a thing in any 90's space movie


Yes, and that's why it would have been perfect for Mass Effect, considering the trilogy's one huge love letter to the science fiction with which most of us grew up.

Modifié par humes spork, 30 mars 2012 - 09:32 .


#25
KingZayd

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tetsutsuru wrote...

I was just as skeptical as my Shepard, regarding the Crucible. One superweapon against the Reapers, yeah okayyy.... I'll take whatever help I can get. Hope it does... something.

As far as a plot device, it is an interesting concept but not very well thought-out. One of the things that bothered me about it was that, it's been determined that the "device" IS a "weapon", and not a Prothean snow cone maker, or espresso machine. At some point in its construction, someone should have at least been able to determine what it does. Whether it is a mass accelerator, or fires a pulse, electricity, bullets, missiles, or transforms into a giant mech and whacks the Reapers with a stick. It's just ridiculous being completely oblivious about it, specially considering "we've got the best scientific minds working on it 'round the clock", from multiple races, even including the Rachni.


this. they seem to understand what all the individual parts do, certainly what the extra war asset relevant parts do. surely they should have some sort of idea what should happen when they flip the switch? on mars they did bring up the issue of how reliably they could target the reapers, leaving everything else intact and that's what i thought was going to be relevant.



EDIT: one of the crucible war assets, the interferometry array provides a real time map of the galaxy including a real time map of the reapers. how does that help if your crucible emits a spherical pulse that destroys/controls all the reapers or mixes all the life

Modifié par KingZayd, 30 mars 2012 - 09:36 .