108 réponses à ce sujet

[BanditGR]

I've tanked the entire game with a 2H warrior and I'm surprised of the low opinion people have on them. Obviously they aren't going to excel at DPS over rogues or mages (especially early on) and you obviously need to micromanage them properly, due to their swing time, but imo they end up completely obliterating sword and shield specs in almost every possible field, except maybe survivability (due to inherently lower defense talents) which is only a real issue, early on. Indomitable is simply way too powerful, considering its tier spot. Critical strike and mighty blow means most of the time that you will be able to shatter 2 foes almost immediately. Champion specialization softens the defense penalties and haste/blood thirst softens the swing time "penalties". I entirely agree that it's just way easier to use DW and forget about having to tailor a character to a specific purpose, but it is way more fun

Modifié par BanditGR, 03 décembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[HHHLie]

2H are awesome, provided you build them well.

This means lot of stamina, because their sustained have a high cost, and their activated abilities are wonderful.



I finished with a 2h in nightmare, and it would have been much harder with any other kind of warrior. The sustained ability that immunes you to stun AND falling is priceless, and your burst DPS on a single target is the best of any class, including DW rogue. With the right weapon and enough stamina, you can go Mighty Blow (100+ dmg) then Critical Strike (100+ dmg) then Sunder arms (2x50dmg) then Sunder Armor (2x50dmg) for a whooping 400 dmg upfront.



You also get the best weapon ever, the maul from Gorin in Denerim. Don't let other weapons fool you, nothing beats this maul and its +75 stam.



Those who fail at being 2H just pump up strength and forget stamina.

[XOGHunter246]

2h are not bad for me i guess it depends how you play them

[RamsenC]

I'll have to agree, 2h needs much more micro, but its worth the effort. DW is fairly easy to set up and all you really need is auto attack. DW is perfect for your second warrior, but for your PC go 2h

[Sharog]

HHHLie wrote...

I finished with a 2h in nightmare, and it would have been much harder with any other kind of warrior. The sustained ability that immunes you to stun AND falling is priceless, and your burst DPS on a single target is the best of any class, including DW rogue. With the right weapon and enough stamina, you can go Mighty Blow (100+ dmg) then Critical Strike (100+ dmg) then Sunder arms (2x50dmg) then Sunder Armor (2x50dmg) for a whooping 400 dmg upfront.

U do realize a rogue is able to backstab like 7 or 8 times in the duration for u to activate those abilities, and with each strike over 100 dmg flat, that is without any stamina spent. it is pointless to argue Dmgwise when using a 2hder, they just suck.

[Faerell Gustani]

Sharog wrote...

Unfortunately 2hder are just dumb when it comes to DMG, the only way i found it worth awhile is to run a 2x 2hder group with Haste from the mage buff + earthquake all the time.
when everyone laying on the ground and u chopping their heads off seems to be quite effective.

That's a neat strategy.  I'll have to try that some time.

[HHHLie]

Sharog wrote...
U do realize a rogue is able to backstab like 7 or 8 times in the duration for u to activate those abilities, and with each strike over 100 dmg flat, that is without any stamina spent. it is pointless to argue Dmgwise when using a 2hder, they just suck.

That's assuming your target can be backstabbed (ie no shield wizz) and you yourself are not dazed/stunned/prone.

Against common critters, DW rogue are the best.
Against bosses, I'll go with a 2H anytime.

[Sharog]

all target can be backstabbed with coup de grace, although it does require some setup.

Since bs rogue does not use off hand runes for dmg u can easily max physical resistance and make u immune to majority of the knockback stun effects, making indominable less of an issue.



Ever tried having mh dagger socketed with 1x gm and 2x master paralyzing runes? against high dragon u stun it more often than spamming coc with 2 mages. it is hardly worse than a 2hder.



besides, the amount of boss fights that offers any challenge can be counted with 1 hand, while 90% of the time u are killing trash mobs. in 1 playthrough a rogue does over twice the dmg of a 2hder.

[JJM152]

HHHLie wrote...

Sharog wrote...
U do realize a rogue is able to backstab like 7 or 8 times in the duration for u to activate those abilities, and with each strike over 100 dmg flat, that is without any stamina spent. it is pointless to argue Dmgwise when using a 2hder, they just suck.

That's assuming your target can be backstabbed (ie no shield wizz) and you yourself are not dazed/stunned/prone.

Against common critters, DW rogue are the best.
Against bosses, I'll go with a 2H anytime.

I tend to agree. Almost all of the hard boss fights involve watching a Rogue pick himself up off the ground, walk up to the boss, move himself into flanking position, and then getting knocked back/down again after getting in maybe 1 or 2 backstabs.

But of course that wont stop people dedicating 20 pages of posts to theorycrafting how a cunning based rogue can do more damage than Oprah at an all you can eat cake buffet.

[Drogen Age]

2-handed Warriors are insanely OP in this game.

Only thing you need to do is to skill strength. Because of that, you get plenty of +hit and +damage. Through the high amount of strength you can wear the blood dragon armor very early., which boosts your survivability and (again) your dmg-output. Next thing to consider is the Weapon choice. The best Weapon in the Game is the Chasind Great Maul, bought at Denerim's Market Place. This Weapon will Outgear even the Two handed Sword from DLC Soldier's Peak, because of the 1.25 strenght Modifier. Also this weapon provides 75 STAM and Stam-Reg, a ton of Armor-Pen and ultimate dmg. Having a Hit-value that easily exceeds 140 in the endgame and twohitting yellow caster is hell of fun^^.

Being able to wear the Blood dragon armor at lvl 9 or earlier and gaining Yusaris via the magetower at the same level, this specc is the easiest in the game.

[nuculerman]

HHHLie wrote...

2H are awesome, provided you build them well.
This means lot of stamina, because their sustained have a high cost, and their activated abilities are wonderful.

I finished with a 2h in nightmare, and it would have been much harder with any other kind of warrior. The sustained ability that immunes you to stun AND falling is priceless, and your burst DPS on a single target is the best of any class, including DW rogue. With the right weapon and enough stamina, you can go Mighty Blow (100+ dmg) then Critical Strike (100+ dmg) then Sunder arms (2x50dmg) then Sunder Armor (2x50dmg) for a whooping 400 dmg upfront.

You also get the best weapon ever, the maul from Gorin in Denerim. Don't let other weapons fool you, nothing beats this maul and its +75 stam.

Those who fail at being 2H just pump up strength and forget stamina.

Yeah... that really doesn't compare to a dual wielding rogue doing backstabs with momentum.  Nor does it compare to a dual wielding warrior.  In the time it would take you to pull off all four of those attacks, my dual wielding warrior would have killed just about everyone in the room with his AoE's.  Not to mention, if your 2H warrior is your main tank, he'd most likely be dead before you can use all of those moves, and will easily be out of stamina after using three of them assuming he has precise striking, indomitable, and threaten activated.

2H warriors suck early on.  Sten is pretty awesome later on, but what the hell.  I don't have to use him early on so I get the best of both worlds if I play him later.  I quit my 2H warrior when I got to the Fade in the mages quest and couldn't get two attacks in before I was torn apart my blood mages.  It would take both my dual wielding warrior and 2H warrior two attacks to kill a mage, but my dual wielding warrior could use 2 attacks about 4 times faster.  So my dual wielding warrior could kill any mage before it even got an attack off.  If the mage was next to another mage, he could kill both of them before either of them got an attack off.  Meanwhile, my 2H had to get hit by a fire ball and about 4 mage attacks before he could kill just one mage.  I went into the fade with 0 health pots on normal with my 2H warrior and I quit that character for good after 2 hours in there.  I went to the fade with 10 health pots on nightmare with my DW warrior and I used one of them, and beat the level within two hours.  There's really no comparison.

Sten has his sword, and my DW warrior has a red steel dagger and oath breaker.  They both have similar armor.  Sten has 42 Str and 22 dexterity.  My DW warrior has 38 Str and 33 Dexterity.  My DW warrior does more damage, has a higher attack rating and has a much higher defense rating.  Since he can kill things so fast he does Allistair's job better than Allistair and Sten's job better than Sten.  

If you're a min/maxer and want to make a warrior, DW is the only logical choice.  A DW warrior with beserker/champion specializations would trash any other warrior build.  

[Drogen Age]

nuculerman wrote...

HHHLie wrote...

2H are awesome, provided you build them well.
This means lot of stamina, because their sustained have a high cost, and their activated abilities are wonderful.

I finished with a 2h in nightmare, and it would have been much harder with any other kind of warrior. The sustained ability that immunes you to stun AND falling is priceless, and your burst DPS on a single target is the best of any class, including DW rogue. With the right weapon and enough stamina, you can go Mighty Blow (100+ dmg) then Critical Strike (100+ dmg) then Sunder arms (2x50dmg) then Sunder Armor (2x50dmg) for a whooping 400 dmg upfront.

You also get the best weapon ever, the maul from Gorin in Denerim. Don't let other weapons fool you, nothing beats this maul and its +75 stam.

Those who fail at being 2H just pump up strength and forget stamina.

Yeah... that really doesn't compare to a dual wielding rogue doing backstabs with momentum.  Nor does it compare to a dual wielding warrior.  In the time it would take you to pull off all four of those attacks, my dual wielding warrior would have killed just about everyone in the room with his AoE's.  Not to mention, if your 2H warrior is your main tank, he'd most likely be dead before you can use all of those moves, and will easily be out of stamina after using three of them assuming he has precise striking, indomitable, and threaten activated.

2H warriors suck early on.  Sten is pretty awesome later on, but what the hell.  I don't have to use him early on so I get the best of both worlds if I play him later.  I quit my 2H warrior when I got to the Fade in the mages quest and couldn't get two attacks in before I was torn apart my blood mages.  It would take both my dual wielding warrior and 2H warrior two attacks to kill a mage, but my dual wielding warrior could use 2 attacks about 4 times faster.  So my dual wielding warrior could kill any mage before it even got an attack off.  If the mage was next to another mage, he could kill both of them before either of them got an attack off.  Meanwhile, my 2H had to get hit by a fire ball and about 4 mage attacks before he could kill just one mage.  I went into the fade with 0 health pots on normal with my 2H warrior and I quit that character for good after 2 hours in there.  I went to the fade with 10 health pots on nightmare with my DW warrior and I used one of them, and beat the level within two hours.  There's really no comparison.

Sten has his sword, and my DW warrior has a red steel dagger and oath breaker.  They both have similar armor.  Sten has 42 Str and 22 dexterity.  My DW warrior has 38 Str and 33 Dexterity.  My DW warrior does more damage, has a higher attack rating and has a much higher defense rating.  Since he can kill things so fast he does Allistair's job better than Allistair and Sten's job better than Sten.  

If you're a min/maxer and want to make a warrior, DW is the only logical choice.  A DW warrior with beserker/champion specializations would trash any other warrior build.  

You forget, that you are Stacking gear on your Main-Char, that your Party-Members are skilled very bad and DW-Warriors lack survivability early on, not to mention CC-immunity. 2-handers a very effective if skilled and played right.

[SirSick]

nuculerman wrote...

HHHLie wrote...

2H are awesome, provided you build them well.
This means lot of stamina, because their sustained have a high cost, and their activated abilities are wonderful.

I finished with a 2h in nightmare, and it would have been much harder with any other kind of warrior. The sustained ability that immunes you to stun AND falling is priceless, and your burst DPS on a single target is the best of any class, including DW rogue. With the right weapon and enough stamina, you can go Mighty Blow (100+ dmg) then Critical Strike (100+ dmg) then Sunder arms (2x50dmg) then Sunder Armor (2x50dmg) for a whooping 400 dmg upfront.

You also get the best weapon ever, the maul from Gorin in Denerim. Don't let other weapons fool you, nothing beats this maul and its +75 stam.

Those who fail at being 2H just pump up strength and forget stamina.

Yeah... that really doesn't compare to a dual wielding rogue doing backstabs with momentum.  Nor does it compare to a dual wielding warrior.  In the time it would take you to pull off all four of those attacks, my dual wielding warrior would have killed just about everyone in the room with his AoE's.  Not to mention, if your 2H warrior is your main tank, he'd most likely be dead before you can use all of those moves, and will easily be out of stamina after using three of them assuming he has precise striking, indomitable, and threaten activated.

2H warriors suck early on.  Sten is pretty awesome later on, but what the hell.  I don't have to use him early on so I get the best of both worlds if I play him later.  I quit my 2H warrior when I got to the Fade in the mages quest and couldn't get two attacks in before I was torn apart my blood mages.  It would take both my dual wielding warrior and 2H warrior two attacks to kill a mage, but my dual wielding warrior could use 2 attacks about 4 times faster.  So my dual wielding warrior could kill any mage before it even got an attack off.  If the mage was next to another mage, he could kill both of them before either of them got an attack off.  Meanwhile, my 2H had to get hit by a fire ball and about 4 mage attacks before he could kill just one mage.  I went into the fade with 0 health pots on normal with my 2H warrior and I quit that character for good after 2 hours in there.  I went to the fade with 10 health pots on nightmare with my DW warrior and I used one of them, and beat the level within two hours.  There's really no comparison.

Sten has his sword, and my DW warrior has a red steel dagger and oath breaker.  They both have similar armor.  Sten has 42 Str and 22 dexterity.  My DW warrior has 38 Str and 33 Dexterity.  My DW warrior does more damage, has a higher attack rating and has a much higher defense rating.  Since he can kill things so fast he does Allistair's job better than Allistair and Sten's job better than Sten.  

If you're a min/maxer and want to make a warrior, DW is the only logical choice.  A DW warrior with beserker/champion specializations would trash any other warrior build.  

Reminds me of another post about 2H being as slow as snails, so I 'll  post my own thoughts that I posted there

I am also of the opinion that 2H are somewhat underpowered from both the gameplay and the flavor angle,
as they should have been given more moves that make sense for the style they are using instead of seeming to be the "heavier" variant of the dualwielders. Due to the massive weapon 's length and weight, warriors wielding 2 handed weapons mainly use 2 angles of attack; vertical "killing blows" that shatter through defenses or horizontal "sweeps" capable of hitting multple targets. I belive some changes should be made to improve the style such as including more of these trademark moves because only having one sweep and 2 killing blows just does n't seem right.

For instance, horizontal "sweeps" and even the "auto attack" should be more prevelant as an AoE, (including friendly fire), because you can clearly see the sword flow around the warrior so it should hit ALL the targets within it 's range. Another clear fact is that when hitting a guy center-mass with a 40+ kg / 80+ pound weapon
and not having it do REDICULOUS amounts of damage (at least 2 times) compared to your "auto attack" just sounds unrealistic, so maybe make the moves cost more and scale up the damage to make it all more plausible.
 
Another problem is that the game is n't very clear in listing stats we definatly need to know to play the game properly. Like how fast a weapon would work (especially on ranged weapons like bows and crossbows),
how much strength and / or dextery (preferably seperatly listed) would affect that weapon 's effectiveness,
how much that weapon would benefit from buffs like runes (in case they would scale it with it 's core attack speed
since the way it is now, a 2H would not get the same mileage out of a +fire rune as a dagger would ... in fact,
they would get significantly less bonusses from it, regardless of the haste bonusses you would normally need to close the gap in speed).

On top of all this, after trying the style and not doing well. And after that, having to learn on forums that the style is the most unforgiving and wil also suck some major bawls till the middle / end game due to the fact that you NEED to stack rediculous amounts of strength to do the damage you need and the attack to hit anything.

All of this, in a nutshell, is why people are right when saying the style is underpowered because simply compairing it to ANY other results in these kinds of observations.

Modifié par SirSick, 03 décembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[Sharog]

I like the idea of having Cleaving (Aoe to nearby enemies/friendlies) a passive bonus for 2h style, swinging it at the way the animation shows, it is only a joke that it hits 1 target with dmg that is barely harder per hit than someone wielding 2 wpns. while having 1/3 of the swinging speed.

[nuculerman]

Drogen Age wrote...

You forget, that you are Stacking gear on your Main-Char, that your Party-Members are skilled very bad and DW-Warriors lack survivability early on, not to mention CC-immunity. 2-handers a very effective if skilled and played right.

You clearly haven't played a DW warrior.  Survivability early on?  What are you talking about?  Early on a DW warrior completely trashes a 2H warrior.  2H warriors are the ones that are god awful early on, for reasons I already explained.  

As for stun and knock down immunity, that's highly situational.  My DW warrior is typically killing everyone before they knock him down anyway.  And when that isn't happening he's still doing more DPS than a 2H warrior even taking the knockdowns into consideration.  Respec Allistair or Sten as a dual wielder and they'll be better than Allistair or Sten as a what they were meant to be.  I'm not happy about it either, but the truth is the truth.  I was looking most forward to a 2H Templar/Beserker Dwarf Noble pre-release, but I gave it up at level 9.  And yes, I had had indomitable by then.  It's a really weak build at low level. And is easily beaten by multiple mage builds, multiple rogue builds, and a DW Warrior build later in the game.

[SirSick]

In case someone was thinking I was talking b***s*** about the 2 Handed weapon style being the "heavier" variant of the dualwielders,
I will even list all of the similarities in both styles. Just to prove the point I see so clearly, I will list them in detail.
- Each style has 4 Passive "masteries": Dual-Weapon Training, Dual-Weapon Finesse, Dual-Weapon Expert, and Dual-Weapon Mastery for Dualwieding and Stunning Blows, Shattering Blows, Destroyer, and Two-Handed Strength for 2 Handed respectively.
- Each style has a sweep: Dual-Weapon Sweep for Dualwieding and Two-Handed Sweep for 2 Handed respectively.
- Each style has a damage boosting sustained move: Momentum for Dualwieding and Powerful Swings for 2 Handed respectively.
- Each style has a sunder armor move: Cripple for Dualwieding and Sunder Armor for 2 Handed respectively.
- Each style has a disarming move: Cripple for Dualwieding and Sunder Arms for 2 Handed respectively.
- Each style has a disabling move: Riposte for Dualwieding and Pommel Strike 2 Handed respectively.
Though some moves differ in the fine print such as allowing an in-built "free hit" after the disired effect, the remainder of the moves are only real diffrences between the styles and if you were counting, those are less than 33% of all the moves available, hence my statement.

Modifié par SirSick, 03 décembre 2009 - 01:23 .

[Hizoka003]

TanithAeyrs wrote...

you have to give you 2H warriors some dexterity or they are not going to hit anything and take a lot of damage. A straight strength/ constitution build gimps them.

guess you either fail at reading or are clueless.... you get the same anount of hit fron STR as you do with Dex for melee weapons


2h weapos do not miss any more the 1hs you just notice it more

[MikeMonger]

Sten in the Legion Armor=unstoppable killing machine.

[Zentrasi]

I'm having a blast with my main character as a two handed warrior. I think the main thing to remember is that you need a balance of most skills, not just strength and consitution. Dexterity helps a lot and willpower gets you more stamina.

[Darth_Shizz]

Zentrasi wrote...

I'm having a blast with my main character as a two handed warrior. I think the main thing to remember is that you need a balance of most skills, not just strength and consitution. Dexterity helps a lot and willpower gets you more stamina.

There's very little reason to put points into dexterity from what I know. In order to actually make it worthwhile, you'd need to sink a good 25 points into it (which is still quite a few levels worth, even after bonuses). For me, having the strength to wear massive armour and a decent amount of constitution id more than enough to keep my warrior up, even when he is swarmed. Add cc to the mix, and there's very little to be concerned about, even on nightmare.

[JHorwath]

I started a two hander last night. I have been putting stats into dex, str, and a bit of will. So far my hit rate is 78% or so. Sten, who has more stats put into str than dex has a hit rate of 58%. My higher dex 2h can stand in fights longer then Sten, who has better armor, and was a higher level. The max amount of damage done by both characters was exactly the same.

both str and dex add a .5 to attack. Dex increases chance of enemy to miss.

The only reason I'm pumping up str is so I can wear heavy armors and some of the 2h techniques require a certain str score. I can't see ending up with a str score more than 45 or so.

However, I'm going to make two 2h warriors. One heavy str and will the other a balance of str, dex, and will. Should be interesting to see which one performs better over the course of the entire game.

*Don't forget about throwing a token point every now and then into magic.  *magic effects the usefulness of health poltices and the effectiveness of salves...

Modifié par JHorwath, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:20 .

[Thurgrim Brewbeard]

I don't know why people say that 2H warriors suck. I'm near the end of the game with my main as a 2Hander and I just destroy people. I guess I have no basis of comparison with this being my first character, but as far as viability on a Normal play through I have had no problems. As long as you have a tank and a healer in your party you can just run around and take out whoever you want pretty quickly.

[Id of Ith]

JHorwath wrote...

I started a two hander last night. I have been putting stats into dex, str, and a bit of will. So far my hit rate is 78% or so. Sten, who has more stats put into str than dex has a hit rate of 58%. My higher dex 2h can stand in fights longer then Sten, who has better armor, and was a higher level. The max amount of damage done by both characters was exactly the same.

both str and dex add a .5 to attack. Dex increases chance of enemy to miss.

The only reason I'm pumping up str is so I can wear heavy armors and some of the 2h techniques require a certain str score. I can't see ending up with a str score more than 45 or so.

However, I'm going to make two 2h warriors. One heavy str and will the other a balance of str, dex, and will. Should be interesting to see which one performs better over the course of the entire game.

*Don't forget about throwing a token point every now and then into magic.  *magic effects the usefulness of health poltices and the effectiveness of salves...

Is your 2H warrior tanking? If the answer is no, leave DEX alone. STR and WIL are what feeds 2H warriors, literally the ONLY advantage of taking DEX is to deal with enemy attacks better. If you have a dedicated tank, you are weakening your character.

Anyway, as to the topic - no, they arent that bad. Most people form their opinions of their PC based on how high their numbers get and not a single thing more. Nevermind that your min/max dagger rogue didn't do **** to that boss because he got chain KD'd the whole time, he does 20 more DPS against trivial mobs that wouldn't be a challenge for anyone so he's "better". Becuase I totally care how fast I kill white mobs in this game.

If you ask me, the only real worth a character brings is how well they perform against content that actually poses a threat. In that respect, 2H warriors do fine - they deal solid damage per hit, have multiple abilities to chain and Indomitable is a humongous boon. They also have multiple KDs including what is probably the best one in the entire game in 2H Sweep, and Pommel Strike which has a VERY short timer and almost no start-up. Multiple on-demand crit abilities has good synergy with Cone of Cold to shatter high threat targets and eliminate them at the outset. Wearing massive means you don't have to panic mash your space bar the instant you see a target turn to them.

I don't find any value in building characters to make easy content easier. To that end I think 2H warriors fare just fine against the other melee.

[Rainen89]

Fight a dragon with a dual wield rogue we'll see how much damage you do. I've played both yes on trash dual wield is freaking retarded. On bosses however you're on your back far more times than you're stabbing. Might as well be romancing.

[JHorwath]

Id of Ith wrote...

JHorwath wrote...

I started a two hander last night. I have been putting stats into dex, str, and a bit of will. So far my hit rate is 78% or so. Sten, who has more stats put into str than dex has a hit rate of 58%. My higher dex 2h can stand in fights longer then Sten, who has better armor, and was a higher level. The max amount of damage done by both characters was exactly the same.

both str and dex add a .5 to attack. Dex increases chance of enemy to miss.

The only reason I'm pumping up str is so I can wear heavy armors and some of the 2h techniques require a certain str score. I can't see ending up with a str score more than 45 or so.

However, I'm going to make two 2h warriors. One heavy str and will the other a balance of str, dex, and will. Should be interesting to see which one performs better over the course of the entire game.

*Don't forget about throwing a token point every now and then into magic.  *magic effects the usefulness of health poltices and the effectiveness of salves...

you are weakening your character.

How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.