108 réponses à ce sujet

[Navy_Spitfire]

I've been using Sten since I got him (I'm almost done) and he's basically done with the 2H tree. His STR is 44 atm. So far I don't see that many negative things with him; he's pretty powerful, he shatters frozen people. I think he tends to miss a bunch though.

[Darth_Shizz]

nuculerman wrote...

2H warriors suck early on.  Sten is pretty awesome later on, but what the hell.  I don't have to use him early on so I get the best of both worlds if I play him later.  I quit my 2H warrior when I got to the Fade in the mages quest and couldn't get two attacks in before I was torn apart my blood mages.

There's a hole in your logic, as my 2-hander was never torn apart by blood mages in the fade. And seriously, you "quit" because you had a little trouble? How cute 

It would take both my dual wielding warrior and 2H warrior two attacks to kill a mage, but my dual wielding warrior could use 2 attacks about 4 times faster.  So my dual wielding warrior could kill any mage before it even got an attack off.  If the mage was next to another mage, he could kill both of them before either of them got an attack off.  Meanwhile, my 2H had to get hit by a fire ball and about 4 mage attacks before he could kill just one mage.

Out of curiosity, if you really did struggle here, why didn't you just think to yourself "Oh, hey...BW gave us the ability to transform into various forms with different useful traits here. Perhaps I should take advantage of this!".

Is this any defence for 2 handed abilities per se? No, not really I suppose. Although it does say a lot about your time spent in the fade. Sorry to say it man, but you were defeated heartily by the sounds of things ;p 

On another note, just how powerful does indomitable make a 2-hander early on compared to a DW'er? This is a game where disables WILL kill you, and hey, they're not even THAT rare. I can name several incidents in the tower of Ishal alone where knockdown and stun immunity will make the game easier than just using a dw'er. 

I went into the fade with 0 health pots on normal with my 2H warrior and I quit that character for good after 2 hours in there.  I went to the fade with 10 health pots on nightmare with my DW warrior and Iused one of them, and beat the level within two hours.  There's really no comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really not trying to turn this into a pissing contest, but you can't just hash together a load of subjective figures, then claim that "There's really no comparison" based on them. I can do that  too...look!

Darth_Shizz wrote...

I went into the fade on nightmare, with my 2-hander and 7 pots (2 health, 3 lesser and 2 greater). I actually didn't use a single one and finished it in just over an hour. Perhaps this is an unfair comparison though, considering you never managed to see it out with your 2-hander on normal 

If you're a munchkin and want to make a warrior, DW is the only logical choice if you want to get by without "thinking" (which in effect, is really no more difficult pressing a combination of buttons that Bioware give us access to).  A DW warrior with beserker/champion specializations would trash any other warrior build for trash that provides little challenge already.  

Corrected.

As an afterthought, would anyone really trust the advice given by someone that struggled on normal then quit after 2 hours? <_<

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[Id of Ith]

JHorwath wrote...
How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.

You are using two different characters. I have no idea what you are doing with them but there is certainly no stat-related reason for their hit rate differences. STR and DEX quite literally have the exact same effect on your character's hit rate. The only difference between them is that STR increases damage, and DEX increases defense.

[JHorwath]

Id of Ith wrote...

JHorwath wrote...
How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.

You are using two different characters. I have no idea what you are doing with them but there is certainly no stat-related reason for their hit rate differences. STR and DEX quite literally have the exact same effect on your character's hit rate. The only difference between them is that STR increases damage, and DEX increases defense.

The characters have the same weapons and Sten even had better armor at one point.  Anyway, I'll see what happens when I roll the other 2h and use the same weapons and equipment.  The only difference will be the distribution of stats.  I really don't care which is better.  I'd just like to see for myself.  Actually, I'm going to do that when I get home.  I want to see the difference, if there is any over the same exact part of the game with different stats.  I'm sure there are pros and cons to both.

*Anyway, one thing that was bothering me was this.  Some weapons have lower attack but higher armor penetration.  What weapon is actually better?  The sword with the higher overall attack or the maul with the lower attack but higher armor penetration.  If the armor penetration is better what is the window where attack is > than armor penetration?

I was replaying some encounters with different weapons and didn't notice a huge spike in the damage with mauls vs swords...

[TheRealIncarnal]

Invalidcode wrote...

2h isn't a tank, isn't your main damage dealer either. It is a great front line support build.

Pommel strike: Knock down that is on a short 10 seconds cooldown. Knock! Knock!
Sunder armor: Your DW warrior/rogue do a lot of damage? Yes of course, with sunder armor(or shattering shot from archer) they do even more.
2 hand weapon sweep: Everything around you gets knockdown on the ground.
Stunning blow: Chance to stun on every hit.
Mightly blow & critial strike ain't that good on its own, until you bring cone of cold...shatter & shatter.
Indomitable: Immune to stun and knockdown. Your group got knock down by a firball and a darkspawn rogue is making a bee ling towards your mage, death seems inevtiable... oh wait your 2h warrior is still up on his feet, the rogue give you a cheap shot! Hah immune again, pommel strike to the face!

2h warriors take quite a bit of damage, yes but mobs that got knocked down and/or stunned can't really hurt you.

Overall 2h isn't a GREAT build but it isn't weak.

Exactly! Once you max out the Two Hander skills you've got someone who turns the enemies to mush. Armor, Attack, Stuns, Knockdowns, not to mention I put a Grandmaster Paralysis Rune and Electricity on my Weapon, my two hander warrior was locking up entire groups of enemies. That's an extreamly handy thing to be able to do.

Also, with Shattering Blows Golems = Dust. It makes the golem fights incredibly easy and even Caradin very squishy. Doubly so if you have Telekinetic weapons.

Really the key is to just remember the role that they play and make sure you use them that way.

Shield = Tank, Dual Weild = Damage Dealing, and Two-Handers = Heavy Support

Modifié par TheRealIncarnal, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[GilgameshXD]

Dual Wielders do pretty much everything better, so that's the reason why two-handers suck.

[Darth_Shizz]

Id of Ith wrote...

JHorwath wrote...
How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.

You are using two different characters. I have no idea what you are doing with them but there is certainly no stat-related reason for their hit rate differences. STR and DEX quite literally have the exact same effect on your character's hit rate. The only difference between them is that STR increases damage, and DEX increases defense.

As Id stated already, you cannot compare using two different characters without providing accompanying stats to support the vast difference in hit rate %

Either way, 58% is terrible, though i can't imagine the reason behind it. Strength benefits damage just as much as dexterity does for 2 handed weapons... in fact, it benefits damage more due to strength modifiers on the weapons. Only thing I can think, is a mixture of Sten always targetting the high defence mobs, on top of being debuffed, on top of having some sort of disability...perhaps restless legs syndrome? I advise you to refer him to the nearest Apothecary ASAP.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[JHorwath]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Id of Ith wrote...

JHorwath wrote...
How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.

You are using two different characters. I have no idea what you are doing with them but there is certainly no stat-related reason for their hit rate differences. STR and DEX quite literally have the exact same effect on your character's hit rate. The only difference between them is that STR increases damage, and DEX increases defense.

. Only thing I can think, is a mixture of Sten always targetting the high defence mobs, on top of being debuffed, on top of having some sort of disability...perhaps restless legs syndrome?

No, my character was always taking the yellow monsters vs Sten on the white mobs.  No debuffs, no combat assists.  Nothing.

[Darth_Shizz]

JHorwath wrote...

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Id of Ith wrote...

JHorwath wrote...
How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.

You are using two different characters. I have no idea what you are doing with them but there is certainly no stat-related reason for their hit rate differences. STR and DEX quite literally have the exact same effect on your character's hit rate. The only difference between them is that STR increases damage, and DEX increases defense.

. Only thing I can think, is a mixture of Sten always targetting the high defence mobs, on top of being debuffed, on top of having some sort of disability...perhaps restless legs syndrome?

No, my character was always taking the yellow monsters vs Sten on the white mobs.  No debuffs, no combat assists.  Nothing.

Then it must be the restless legs

[Roxlimn]

Your PC is stronger than the NPCs. It's a mistake to compare styles on the basis of a PC-NPC comparison.

[Gliese]

One thing you see over and over again on these forums is one on one comparisons between characters. Although that is fine, to me a much more important question is "how good a team player is this character?". Apart from the fade you're never going to be alone, you're going to work together with your party and in the fade you have transform abilities that let you tackle any situation.

My first playthrough was with an assassin rogue that maximized backstabbing over the game. Would he have been half as good without Morrigan and all her paralyzing spells and Zevran to further cash in on the theme? Hardly..

It's about building a good team not a single good character. If we're talking soloing, that's a topic of its own.

[joe_black]

Where do I find the Chasind Great Maul?

[Darth_Shizz]

Gliese wrote...

One thing you see over and over again on these forums is one on one comparisons between characters. Although that is fine, to me a much more important question is "how good a team player is this character?". Apart from the fade you're never going to be alone, you're going to work together with your party and in the fade you have transform abilities that let you tackle any situation.
My first playthrough was with an assassin rogue that maximized backstabbing over the game. Would he have been half as good without Morrigan and all her paralyzing spells and Zevran to further cash in on the theme? Hardly..
It's about building a good team not a single good character. If we're talking soloing, that's a topic of its own.

This sums it up. I see for too many people recycling that tiring line "well a dw does it better...why bother with anything else?". Perhaps because different skillsets thrive in different parties? Perhaps that tri 2-handed party (arcane warrior/spirit healer and a controller mage) with dual haste up will actually work rather well??

[JHorwath]

One thing that will be a good determinate, in my opinion, is putting the two respective character builds (referring to player character builds) against the duelist in denerim. At level 7 with the balanced build I got the dueling knight down to 25% health left. I looked over the equipment and everything is pretty much maxed for that encounter. Although, If I spent a bit more time acquiring the better quality chain mail(current was heavy chainmail set- steel) that might make a difference. I'm going to do the strength build against him and see what works out better. If I can consistently get the dueler below 25% (this is without any health poltices in a one on one fight) then I would say that the strength build is better. I'm not sure at this point.

The thing I find interesting is how much strength is enough vs enough dexterity to get a dodge once and a while or, or does the added strength balance out the not being able to dodge as good but do more damage. I don't know if you know what I'm getting at. Obviously, you have to repeat the battle numerous times to factor in user error and just plain bad rolls.

*Another good test will be the ogre fight. With the balance build I was able to defeat the Ogre in the tower with just two health poltices and no party deaths. There was a victory with no health poltices and three deaths.(party- 2h warrior human noble, dog, alistair, computer mage with lightning bolt-weakness-arcane bolt-flame spell-) I ran that fight numerous times. So those two places would probably be good starting points to go from at this stage of the game.  (*Having a 2h warrior in that fight with anti knockdown and pommel strike was highly effective.  When the ogre grabbed someone you could use pommel strike.)

This might all seem stupid but I found it incredibly fun.

*If anyone has any info on mauls and armor penetration vs overall attack but lower armor penetration that would be great as well.

Modifié par JHorwath, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:36 .

[Gliese]

^ Agree on 2hander (my current, second run) vs dw rogue (first run) against Ogre in Ostagar. His health went down much quicker due to the nonstop attacks indomitable granted me. Of course, I didn't get to pick any of the chests on the way. ;-(

[JHorwath]

joe_black wrote...

Where do I find the Chasind Great Maul?

It's in the forest outside the Grey Warden base.  You have to find all the sign posts and then the treasure cache will become avialable.  There are also some cool robes for the ladies to wear.    I'm pretty sure that's how you get that.

[Ninjaphrog]

SaveMeJeebus wrote...

Hi all,

Well I got this game recently done all six origins which don't give you much feel of building my characters, so of course I don't have time to try building loads of characters because I messed up so of course I did some research on these forums and what I found at upset me.

I found a thread where it says over powered talents (mainly mages) and under powered talents (warriors) then I see someone said 2h warriors are generally not worth playng as they dps is terrible.

So yeah I'm looking for reassures on these issues as I don't want to make a warrior that is terrible and don't want to make an overpowered mage that kills everything.

Here's how it goes down(I'm sure I'm widely agreed with in this)

Warrior

2 handed: On easy mode? Yes they can be powerful since you have a larger chance to hit...however...on higher difficulties, the hit/miss ratio is completely screwed up...even rogues tend to miss a bunch even with high Dex(My rogue which I just finished the game with had 60 dex in total, and still missed constantly). Generally though, the problem with 2 handed warrior is this: They need fairly high Dex in order to hit...they need fairly high Willpower to fund the high powered abilities...and in the meantime they need high strength to fuel the blows...so technically...you'll be alot weaker then the classes who only need 2 attributes focused on.

duel wield: Has a potential to be powerful, though if you do it wrong from the beginning you're doomed to fail misserably throughout the game(Trust me I did with my dwarf warrior lols). Although if you do it right, it can turn out to be the most powerful warrior there is...especially if mixed with Reaver! They do require high Dex however, but unlike 2handed they don't require high willpower.

Sworld & Buckler: Usefull if you're a tank, else? Weakest damage a warrior can do.


Mage: All around powerful. No specializations require different attribute focus since the first ability in Arcane warrior lets you use Magic instead of strength...so as Arcane Warrior there's a way to mess up...spend points in strength untill level 7 where you realize you just wasted a ton of points on a useless attribute. Blood Mage is all powerful in my opinion...fantastic Crowd Control, and the only charm spell in the game that can be used on anyone who has blood(So pretty much anything except golems). Arcane Warrior/Blood mage is widely known to be the most powerful mage available. Shapeshifter is fairly weak, due to the time it takes for you to cast the spell. Spirit Healer's pretty USEFUL, not powerful, since it's easy to slip up on Wynne. If you're the healer, you don't need wynne!!! Although due to their extreme damage, crowd control, area damage, and overall survivability, mages are thee most powerful class in the game, and the easiest to play.

Rogue:  My personal favorite. Assassin is incredibly powerful if you have feign death aswell. Get behind an enemy with a stun poison and you got automatic win...attack from the front you got auto fail, since assassin rogues are in their zone when looking at the enemy's back. A rogue who has Assassin/Duelist mix is known to be the most powerful. Bard is the weakest class, with nothing else but weak buffs and Crowd Controls. Ranger has a potential to be powerful if done right.


Warrior/Rogue archer: Archery is if not the weakest class in the game...Arrow of Slaying has the potential to get you the magic 250 damage number if you play your cards right, but all together, all the archer can do is stand in the background, shoot arrows and hope he hits. You don't get any special abilities, and pretty weak activated abilities.

[Darth_Shizz]

Ninjaphrog wrote...

Here's how it goes down(I'm sure I'm widely agreed with in this)

Warrior

2 handed: On easy mode? Yes they can be powerful since you have a larger chance to hit...however...on higher difficulties, the hit/miss ratio is completely screwed up...even rogues tend to miss a bunch even with high Dex(My rogue which I just finished the game with had 60 dex in total, and still missed constantly). Generally though, the problem with 2 handed warrior is this: They need fairly high Dex in order to hit...they need fairly high Willpower to fund the high powered abilities...and in the meantime they need high strength to fuel the blows...so technically...you'll be alot weaker then the classes who only need 2 attributes focused on.

*SNIP*....

Misinformation much? dex adds nothing to hit rate that strength doesn't 0_o

besides



I don't see much wrong with that personally...I get to take advantage of things a dual-wielder can't. Also, to point out, my PC didn't miss once ;p

[JHorwath]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Ninjaphrog wrote...

Here's how it goes down(I'm sure I'm widely agreed with in this)

Warrior

2 handed: On easy mode? Yes they can be powerful since you have a larger chance to hit...however...on higher difficulties, the hit/miss ratio is completely screwed up...even rogues tend to miss a bunch even with high Dex(My rogue which I just finished the game with had 60 dex in total, and still missed constantly). Generally though, the problem with 2 handed warrior is this: They need fairly high Dex in order to hit...they need fairly high Willpower to fund the high powered abilities...and in the meantime they need high strength to fuel the blows...so technically...you'll be alot weaker then the classes who only need 2 attributes focused on.

*SNIP*....

Misinformation much? dex adds nothing to hit rate that strength doesn't 0_o

besides



I don't see much wrong with that personally...I get to take advantage of things a dual-wielder can't. Also, to point out, my PC didn't miss once ;p

After re-rolling and taking  same party members- computer mage, alistair, human noble 2h warrior, dog the ogre in the tower was defeated with no health poltice and no deaths.  That is vs a lesser strength build with more dex added where the best was no deaths and two health poltices.  Now there was a slight difference in the re-roll.  I tried a maul vs a sword and the maul definitely did better against the ogre.  Interesting enough it was the maul that made the difference.  Now every battle didn't end up like this.  However, the majority of the time was a win with no health poltices and no deaths with the heavy strength build.

Now there is a difference in the hit %  the heavy strength and lower dex had a 7% drop off in to hit and the overall damage output in the highest strike was only 3 points from 42 to 45.  So why the win?  Well, the maul could of been a factor...or the fact that putting more into strength opened up the passive stunning talent earlier than the other build.  The interesting thing is though, later in the game how will the build hold up?  At some point the build might need the dexterity to catch up.  However, at that point you have better armor and talents so...

Still, that 7% hit drop off could become more as the enemies level gets higher.  So, maybe the best possible might be an overall balance.

[RamsenC]

Two-handers are so misunderstood D:

[JHorwath]

I took that strength build to that duel guy in Denirem at level 7 and still lost with about the same result. Interesting enough however, the strength build didn't do as well in random encounters when traveling from place to place. My original build with the higher dex and lower strength did better. Maybe it's my play style. Overall I see good and bad with both but I kind of feel more comfortable with the balance. I think it fits better with a one mage and three melee group.



This is all kind of non important because I could just use health poltices at any moment but I'm just trying to get away from that. It's kind of fun.

[Vaylor66]

I'm actually playing through the game using my main as a 2h warrior, Oghren, Sten, and Wynn all in a party. I'm almost done with it now, which will be my 5th time through the game(nightmare mode). So I can actually give some real input instead of peoples theorycraft.



First off, build a 2h with nothing but str. If you do that, you shouldn't have any issues with missing. My main has a 92% hit rate(Oghren and Sten are 72%/74% if you're curious). Dex is a waste. You'd have to put in about 50 points in dex to really start having any noticeable effect on the armor rating, at least on nightmare. You can take hits plenty fine just beefing up your armor rating. You can still get 40+ armor, which absorbs a ton of damage. Willpower just doesn't add enough to stamina to make it worthwhile. You get in a few more specials, but all your specials and normal attacks will hit for less(and you have a lower hit rate). And no need to go con on anything besides just a pure tank.



I find that 2h warriors do ok, but I'll never make one again. Oghren and Sten both are too screwed up stat wise to be worthwhile. And I think a dw rogue or any mage type is by far the best main to create. I find that 2h warriors are 20 second fighters. In that they're good for about the first 20 seconds of a battle, then they start to really lag. I've had a really easy time on some boss fights, because 3 2h warriors smashing into them for 100 damage a swing drops things very fast.



I've also had some really difficult fights, because once that 20 seconds is over, they become kinda useless. Also, Wynn runs out of mana fast trying to keep up haste and heals on them all. I've used way more pot's this run that all my others combined.



Indomitable isn't that good. Everyone is saying how great it is vs dragons and ogres... but it really isn't. You can still be knocked back, just not knocked down. This means that you'll still lose a few seconds getting pushed backwards. A rogue with physical resist runes in the offhand will basically have the same effect. And shield warriors get it too to some extent.



A well made rogue will always do way more damage than a 2h warrior. Even if you're not backstabbing(or can't vs some shield opponents), just pop pinpoint strike and you'll be doing backstab damage at will just about.



The warrior specializations are also pretty terrible for 2h warriors. None of them really seem to fit. Things like berserker only add on a small amount to your total damage, reaver is just terrible. Champion and templar are ok, but doesn't leave a lot of room for variety or offensive additions.



They're not a terrible way to go, just not as effective as some other classes could be. I've had some fights go really easy for my three 2h team, but there are a lot of others that took quite a bit more effort than my other teams did.

[Rainen89]

Rogue is superior in pure damage, 2h is just a nice medium nice damage output with survivability. My rogue can demolish anything but if he gets grabbed/overwhlemed/gnawed he's dead *Waves goodbye*. 2h warrior is not the zomg uber dpser. It's very nice however as a decent damage dealer and brute fighter. I've said this 50 billion times but indomitable is win, nothing in any tree is equivalent for a warrior at least. Specced in pure strength you just tear stuff up however you can do very, very good damage with other classes as well. My point is purely 2h does not suck, it's perfectly fine. Though ^ in atk speed would be awesome, kthx.

[Rainen89]

[quote]Vaylor66 wrote...


Indomitable isn't that good. Everyone is saying how great it is vs dragons and ogres... but it really isn't. You can still be knocked back, just not knocked down. This means that you'll still lose a few seconds getting pushed backwards. A rogue with physical resist runes in the offhand will basically have the same effect. And shield warriors get it too to some extent.

quote]

It is that good though, no traps no spell effects no fireball knockdowns no nothing, you will sometimes get knocked back but it's less time overall and you can resist the knockback as well. Either way a brief knockback is not that big of a deal considering the alternative is lying on the ground for a few seconds doing absolutely nothing, the damage bonus is also nice.

[Hizoka003]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

Id of Ith wrote...

JHorwath wrote...
How so?  The Str dex 2h had a hit rate of 78% vs a 58% hit rate.  The damage output was exactly the same but the 2h with a higher dex rating could stand longer in battle.  I'm just looking at the stats and they seem to tell a different story...  Unless I'm reading them wrong.  Like I said I'm going to make two 2h warriors.  One str heavy and the other str, dex, and will balance.  Please Keep in mind I plan on taking str to at least 42.

You are using two different characters. I have no idea what you are doing with them but there is certainly no stat-related reason for their hit rate differences. STR and DEX quite literally have the exact same effect on your character's hit rate. The only difference between them is that STR increases damage, and DEX increases defense.

As Id stated already, you cannot compare using two different characters without providing accompanying stats to support the vast difference in hit rate %

Either way, 58% is terrible, though i can't imagine the reason behind it. Strength benefits damage just as much as dexterity does for 2 handed weapons... in fact, it benefits damage more due to strength modifiers on the weapons. Only thing I can think, is a mixture of Sten always targetting the high defence mobs, on top of being debuffed, on top of having some sort of disability...perhaps restless legs syndrome? I advise you to refer him to the nearest Apothecary ASAP.

you are wrong... Dex does NOTHING to increase damage for 2h weapons it only helps with hit and def... and STR does the EXACT same amount of hit as dex and adds damage...



why do stupid people fail to understand that STR = hit for melee weapons