78 réponses à ce sujet

[mscotch]

First off Harrowmont is too much of a puss to be a good king. Also, he has no real plans on how to improve the kingdom. 

Second, Bhelen's brother Trian was an inept douche and would have made a terrible king. In my playthrough as a dwarven noble, it didn't really matter to me that Bhelen framed me for killing Trian, I would have done it anyway. 

Third, the guy is slick. He planned on framing me for months or years and paid off the right people. Shows he knows how to play the dwarven politics game. Also if you're playing as a dwarven commoner, turns out he's wheeling your casteless sister showing that he doesn't really care about the whole bs caste system. Takes good care of her too. 

Anyways, I just played through those two origins after playing as a human noble and human mage. The origins definitely give you more insight into what's going on in Orzammar. 

The dwarven noble origin was definitely the funniest I've played so far. The dialogue options are by far some of the best in the game. 

[amrose2]

Gorim, why is this man speaking to me?

[RunCDFirst]

The dwarves don't have a strong candidate for king. Ergo, I just destroy the Anvil, get my recruits and leave the little gravel heads to their own.

[Korva]

Ruthless selfish arse doesn't equal good ruler, else why aren't we swearing fealty to Loghain?

In my game (human noble warrior), there was no indication at all that Bhelen would be a good ruler, and lots of indications that he's a true piece of trash even by dwarven standards. To say nothing of his betrayal in the dwarven noble origin ... If anything, I think the signs point to Harrowmont as a better candidate, if you don't metagame and go by the endings which the PC can't know at that time.

Incidentally, I believe Bhelen only abolishes the caste system to weaken his noble competitors (and he is looking into disbanding the Assembly, apparently). If the guy has a decent and upright bone in his body, I haven't seen it yet. And no, ramming his sauage up the bun of some random casteless prostitute doesn't count. Or is there any interaction when choosing his side that he actually has plans to improve conditions for the lower castes because it's the "right thing to do" as opposed to cementing his position?

[Mesecina]

Well if you get an audience with Bhelen and Harrowmont you learn that Bhelen acknowledges the threat of Blight and darkspawn in general a lot more than Harrowmont does - which is in my opinion the most important aspect to you as Gray Warden.

Also in Royal Palace you discover the poisoned noble who is a good proof Endrin died of poisoning and if you think about it - would Bhelen keep a proof he poisoned his father? And who was the only person close to Endrin in the end.

There's also the fact Harrowmont is a horrible wuss and would never be able to control the Assembly in any way if he can't even get his own champions to fight. And we've all seen what a madhouse the Assembly is.

And you get a bit more insight into their politic by talking to merchants

[Ninjaphrog]

I dont consider a guy who gets the thrown through crime, bribery, and murder a good king...besides...when Harrowmont gets crowned king, Bhelen throws a kiddy temper tantrum and you're forced to kill him...if Bhelen gets crowned king he ridicules Harrowmont and then sentences him to death.



I'm sorry but the best king is a kind king...listen to Wynne she knows.



Harrowmont rules, if you support Bhelen, go f urself

[mastersam562]

Yes Bhelen is definitely the better king Harrowmount will ever be, I love how the story played(Harrowmount) him out to be the better pick.

I have to disagree with Korva a bit. Bhelen only came come as selfish during the game, but hes ruthless alright. In the end I think he did get rid of the Assembly, they looked liked Korean politics they just wanted to fight lol. All in all Bhelen use the castless by using them to fight the darkspawn pushing them back deeper into the Dead Trenches while claiming old thaigs. Hes a man with a plan i didnt see him as selfish one bit if you knew what hes planning.

Modifié par mastersam562, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:34 .

[Roxlimn]

The best king is a strong king, especially as the ending sequences show. Being nice and goody-two-shoes is a bonus, but a weak king is the worst possible choice, and Harrowmont showed himself to be weak.

[Toroi]

Neither of them are good choices. In my first run through, I talked to everyone I could and came to the conclusion that while I hated Bhelen as an arrogant, evil ******, he would at least start to get rid of the caste system, which I hated more than Bhelen. Harrowmount was just a status quo guy, and it seems also a bit underhanded.



In the end, I hated the caste system and that was what drove me to support Bhelen.

[anillop]

If you play the Dwarven commoner origin Belen is clearly the good choice because he will help the casteless and has elevated your whole family to nobility.

[Setz69]

Only humans solve problems through diplomacy. With dwarves it comes down to smashin faces in. And Harrowmounts just not a strong enough man physically or emotionally to be able to bring down his opponents like a king needs to do.



A kind and gentle king just becomes a door mat for harsher cut throat men. Just like a tyrannical murdering king becomes a doorway for rebellion.



To make such radical changes and defy tradition, you'd need to be a strong leader. Harrowmount would have only kept the dwarven tradition as is and, as was obvious, anyone other than nobles disliked the traditional system a lot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes, Bhelen is the better choice.

[Taleroth]

I find it awkward to argue that Bhelen is better a king.  Some claim that his methods are unconscienable, but that his ends are good.  I've seen the argument that his unconscienable methods are necessary given Dwarven society.

If we accept this inherent difference in Dwarven society, who are we to say that the changes he puts forth are good?  Maybe isolation and castes are good for Dwarves.  I find it just as likely as saying lies and murder are good for their kings.

Modifié par Taleroth, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:02 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Bhelen had a plan from the very start as what he wanted to do as king. Harrowmont was pushed into the fight without any political agenda or long-term plans; he only did so because Endrin made him swear that Bhelen wouldn't be king. So, at least to me, it came as no surprise that Harrowmont would make a terrible king in the end.

News of the Hour. Lord Harrowmont arrested, pending execution. Epic Fail!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

I find it awkward to argue that Bhelen is better a king.  Some claim that his methods are unconscienable, but that his ends are good.  I've seen the argument that his unconscienable methods are necessary given Dwarven society.

If we accept this inherent difference in Dwarven society, who are we to say that the changes he puts forth are good?  Maybe isolation and castes are good for Dwarves.  I find it just as likely as saying lies and murder are good for their kings.

Orzammar's life line is trade with the surface (including the trade of lyrium). Cutting off from the surface would be disatrous to Orzammar's economy. Something that the epilogue hints at. Furthermore, it's clear that the merchants, both within and without, would suffer from this, which would result in economic collapse.
About the castes. It's not about the castes perse. Rather it's the treatment of the casteless. They are treated like dogs. Sure, if we are not dwarves, we don't have to complain about it. But we do see dwarves, some of which are nobles, who do complain about it. Bhelen doesn't eliminate the caste system all together. He is just more flexible and more open about it and he tries to improve the conditions of the casteless.
 
Harrowmont  doesn't perserve the status quo, he makes it worse. The epilogue says that he made Orzammar more isolated than ever. And that the commoners have been kicked out, something that was unheard of to my knowledge. So Harrowmont's policies are not conservative, they are regressive.
And that's not counting the fact that without the anvil, Harrowmont fails epicly and Orzammar is in an even worse shape.

Third, it's not necessary for Bhelen to have been Trian's killer. In the Dwarven noble origin, it could have been the PC who kills Trian and Bhelen just outsmarts both. But he doesn't necessarily have to do the actual killing.

And lying and murder is good for any king in any period of history and for any race. One needs to look only at our history.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:17 .

[Ulrik the Slayer]

Bhelen might seem as a terrible human politician and king; but he makes an excellent dwarven one! My Dwarven Noble side with Bhelen. Party out of respect of how well he "played the game", so to speak. And partly to preserve the Aeducan rule.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Bhelen might seem as a terrible human politician and king; but he makes an excellent dwarven one! My Dwarven Noble side with Bhelen. Party out of respect of how well he "played the game", so to speak. And partly to preserve the Aeducan rule.

Why terrible human politician and king? You think we are so different? lol
Our history is full of people like Bhelen who proved to be excellent leaders. I wish we could have a Bhelen now actually.

[Rovay]

Wish there was a way to become a king yourself while getting rid of both Bhelen and Harrowmont... I think that would be the best option.

[hawat333]

Harrowmont is the good choice. And Bhelen is the right one.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...

Bhelen might seem as a terrible human politician and king; but he makes an excellent dwarven one! My Dwarven Noble side with Bhelen. Party out of respect of how well he "played the game", so to speak. And partly to preserve the Aeducan rule.

Why terrible human politician and king? You think we are so different? lol
Our history is full of people like Bhelen who proved to be excellent leaders. I wish we could have a Bhelen now actually.

Because human politics isn't played out the way dwarven politics are. Bhelen might appear evil and ruthless playing out the two brothers against each other, but in the end he was just a very good player when it comes to dwarven politics.

[Grengrad]

I was a human for my first play through and deliberately got Harrowmont anointed as king, because I thought they would make the dwarves weaker, which would my the human position in Ferelden even stronger.



(how is that for evil)

[Loki330]

Incidentally, I believe Bhelen only abolishes the caste system to weaken his noble competitors (and he is looking into disbanding the Assembly, apparently). If the guy has a decent and upright bone in his body, I haven't seen it yet. And no, ramming his sauage up the bun of some random casteless prostitute doesn't count. Or is there any interaction when choosing his side that he actually has plans to improve conditions for the lower castes because it's the "right thing to do" as opposed to cementing his position?

(shrugs) Claudius did that when he became emperor of Rome (undermined the senate's power and authority to strengthen his own)

One thing I like about dragonage is people act like people. Bhelen wants to be king and understands he needs support. The council isn't supporting him so he needs another power base; in this case, the casteless. They support him and he allows them to actually have decent lives. If you don't want to view it as doing the right thing, view it as mutual manipulation.

[Thor Rand Al]

Ok I got a question. In my guide it says, "It really doesn't matter which politician you choose; they're both corrupt to some degree." The only one that I saw that was corrupt was Prince Bhelen well, it was his second-in-command Vartag. He gives you forged documents to turn a couple of people away from Harrowmont. What does Harrowmont do? I tried to play both sides, got as far as doing the Proving Grounds n Vartag confronted me about it n I lied n said something about what better way to spy on your enemy or some bs like that; but then I went to talk to a certain person n found out that the documents I had were forged n that pissed me off cause Harrowmont (Dulin) hadn't asked anything of me like that lol.

[DarkSpiral]

Strangely enough, on my noble dwaf playthrough I supported my little brother. Sure, he set me up. But I was planning on killing Trian anyway; the guy would have been a lousy king. I was clearly better suited. THEN I discover my kid brother has us ALL dancing to his own tune. Damn I was impressed. Pissed too, of course, but hey I came out all right in the end, and the throne should stay with the Aeducans!



It's just a matter of understanding how we work, us dwarves. Harrowmont made an excellent second to my father; just as Gorim was mine. But you don't see me suggesting that Gorim be made a King, now do you? It was to bad he was killed of course, but you can't make an omlette without breaking some eggs.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
Because human politics isn't played out the way dwarven politics are. Bhelen might appear evil and ruthless playing out the two brothers against each other, but in the end he was just a very good player when it comes to dwarven politics.

Human politics is the same in real life. Unless if you are talking about the politics of Ferelden, in which case, you would be right.