78 réponses à ce sujet

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I like Bhelen because he does what needs to be done. He isnt in the extreme sides of "good" and "evil". Meaning either stupid, cruel and shortsighted or too caring, indecisive and dumb.



I think his characteristics are generally positive. He seems perceptive and smart, yet caring and with principles. He is a strong ruler and way better than harrowmont imo.

[tigrina]

Herr Uhl wrote...

tigrina wrote...

Well.. it is like Bhelen killed his brother and Harrowmont killed the former king by poisoning right? So based on that I would chose Bhelen since at least he killed a total idiot. That he also frames the noble dwarf player is an obvious player of the (politics) game moment imho.

Where did you get that Harrowmont poisoned Endrin?

I've read that somewhere on this forum today I think. Maybe it is only what Bhelen screams at Harrowmont at some point in their struggle, not sure.

Who would you rather have as a leader in a time of war, Chamberlain or Churchill?

Since I totally suck at history, I have no answer on that

[Herr Uhl]

tigrina wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

tigrina wrote...

Well.. it is like Bhelen killed his brother and Harrowmont killed the former king by poisoning right? So based on that I would chose Bhelen since at least he killed a total idiot. That he also frames the noble dwarf player is an obvious player of the (politics) game moment imho.

Where did you get that Harrowmont poisoned Endrin?

I've read that somewhere on this forum today I think. Maybe it is only what Bhelen screams at Harrowmont at some point in their struggle, not sure.

Bhelen says a lot of things...

Who would you rather have as a leader in a time of war, Chamberlain or Churchill?

Since I totally suck at history, I have no answer on that

You damn kids with your non-commitment to history and CD:s, GET OFF MY LAWN *shakes fist*.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[tigrina]

Herr Uhl wrote...

tigrina wrote...
I've read that somewhere on this forum today I think. Maybe it is only what Bhelen screams at Harrowmont at some point in their struggle, not sure.

Bhelen says a lot of things...

They both do. They both lie and/or don't tell you the full truth. Now choose.

Who would you rather have as a leader in a time of war, Chamberlain or Churchill?

Since I totally suck at history, I have no answer on that

You damn kids with your non-commitment to history and CD:s, GET OFF MY LAWN *shakes fist*.

If I'm still a kid now, I can't be helped good sir

Modifié par tigrina, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:44 .

[ExistsAlready]

Bhelen is a deceving, manipulative bastard who pulls a lot of dirty, underhand tricks (even for a Dwarf) to secure the throne.

He also turns out to be a reformer and seems to have the sense to see that Orzammar needs the Casteless to survive. Sure, he insults the nobles and warriors and he later disbands the Assembly when it gets too vocal but he does right by his people in the grand scheme of things.



It might even turn out that Orzammar is what he's fighting for, not power. He has a vision for the future of his city and he'll do anything to make it happen.

[Korva]

Roxlimn wrote...

Yes, if the game permitted it, I might have supported Loghain, but that's got its own problems. Loghain failed to get Arl Eamon eliminated! If he'd seen to the deed himself and killed Bann Teagan to boot (as well as all the other banns who opposed him), then he would be a fantastic choice for king - because he would rule uncontested!

Bhelen can't grab power alone. Loghain can't grab power alone. No real difference there.

I'm not sure you guys are aware of this but Ferelden is not a democracy, and people don't support whoever wins an election. So with Orzammar.

Yes and no. Obviously it's not a democracy in our modern Western sense. But both in Ferelden and in Orzammar, you don't become monarch by being the biggest, fattest, most sadistic and ruthlessly power-grabbing piece of sh*t you possibly can be, either. You are chosen or at least confirmed by the nobles, i.e. the Landsmeet or the Assembly, respectively. There is no divine right to rule. There is no automatic succession of the oldest offspring of the old monarch. There is no uncontestable right of the old monarch to name a successor. Everyone can be contested and overruled by the nobles. That is a good, old tradition and it works for the county.

Moreover, it is something the Fereldans, at least, are PROUD of. It's of great importance to them. No monarch has the right to treet the noble lords and ladies like slaves who are bullied and whipped into obedience. Loghain tries that, and it royally pisses a lot of people off, nobles and commoners alike. He stops being a Fereldan in spirit and starts acting exactly like the Orlesians he hates so much. Really a nice, bitter irony there.

The problem with the Orzammar subplot is that you don't learn enough about the canditates "platforms". It's not like you can sit them down for a proper Q&A -- and even if you could, they'd probably lie to make themselves look better, like you'd expect from politics. My character spoke to everyone in Orzammar before making her choice, and not once did she hear so much as a whisper about Bhelen planning to improve conditions for anyone but himself. Even the young Lord Dace in the pub, who speaks strongly against the caste system, doesn't say anything about Bhelen sharing his views, he'd vote for Harrowmont instead (though without any enthusiasm or expectation for things to change). If you're not from a dwarven origin, you don't even know that Bhelen has a casteless prostitute he apparently cares for -- not that is any sign of being a decent person, mind you, since he's just acting in accordance with tradition there. Had Rica given birth to a daughter instead of a son and had Bhelen still elevated her and her family, THAT could have been a sign that he plans to change things. Especially if it's used as gossip/slander against him which the PC could find out before choosing sides.

Of course Harrowmont is no saint. He's a dwarven noble. But from a RP perspective, he easily strikes me as more trustworthy and, for those characters who care about such things, more upstanding. Without metagaming there is no way to determine Bhelen is better for the dwarves as a whole when you are forced to choose sides. And that's my point. I don't give a whit about comparisons with RL history, I'm speaking strictly from an IC point of view at the moment of choice. For a character who believes in the Fereldan style of determining the monarch, in particular, Bhelen's actions can easily look utterly distasteful and reminiscent of Loghain's treachery topside, which could swing the decision in Harrowmont's favor.

Modifié par Korva, 03 décembre 2009 - 01:09 .

[Mesecina]

tigrina wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

tigrina wrote...

Well.. it is like Bhelen killed his brother and Harrowmont killed the former king by poisoning right? So based on that I would chose Bhelen since at least he killed a total idiot. That he also frames the noble dwarf player is an obvious player of the (politics) game moment imho.

Where did you get that Harrowmont poisoned Endrin?

I've read that somewhere on this forum today I think. Maybe it is only what Bhelen screams at Harrowmont at some point in their struggle, not sure.

Who would you rather have as a leader in a time of war, Chamberlain or Churchill?

Since I totally suck at history, I have no answer on that

I said it - while it's not a proven fact it's a wortwhile speculation

Also in Royal Palace you discover the poisoned noble who is a good
proof Endrin died of poisoning and if you think about it - would Bhelen
keep a proof he poisoned his father? And who was the only person close
to Endrin in the end.

[lianesque]

I did wonder where one is supposed to learn in-game that Bhelen is against the caste system, really. I played a dwarf noble, and even though I talked to Rica, I had no idea she was casteless (and anyway, sleeping with noble-hunters is totally in line with the traditional caste system!) So that's not a good pointer.



The only solid info I got about Bhelen being a reformer is from the merchant (Legionar...? the one if front of Tapster's) who supports Bhelen because of his liberal views on trade.

[cglasgow]

Why do people peg Harrowmont as not being evil? Harrowmont is entirely loyal to dwarven traditions... but many of the dwarven traditions are horrible. The treatment of the casteless particularly is downright inhuman.



Bhelen is a villain who knows he is a villain. Harrowmont is a villain who thinks he is a hero. There's not much to choose between them, morally. So my only judging criterion is which one would do better for dwarven society... which is Bhelen, because Harrowmont wants to keep using the rotten old system until it withers and dies.



Granted, its not a choice to make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but that's dwarven politics. Everything sucks.

[kingthrall]

i wanted jarvia to overtrhrow the caste system and be queen as a option

[tigrina]

lianesque wrote...
I did wonder where one is supposed to learn in-game that Bhelen is against the caste system, really. I played a dwarf noble, and even though I talked to Rica, I had no idea she was casteless (and anyway, sleeping with noble-hunters is totally in line with the traditional caste system!) So that's not a good pointer.

The only solid info I got about Bhelen being a reformer is from the merchant (Legionar...? the one if front of Tapster's) who supports Bhelen because of his liberal views on trade.

You don't. The only thing you know is the snippets you find by walking through Orzammar and ask everything at everyone.
As a dwarf you know that Bhelen's mistress is a casteless, since she quite obviously carries the
casteless facial tattoo. If you walk as non-dwarf in Dust Town, you can
also find out what these tattoos mean. I don't think you actually run into the mistress as non-dwarf, now I think of it.

I found the political power struggle in Orzammar the hardest one to grasp to be honest.

[lianesque]

tigrina wrote...
As a dwarf you know that Bhelen's mistress is a casteless, since she quite obviously carries the
casteless facial tattoo.

Right, thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't caught on to the casteless markers yet when I started the game, so the tattoo didn't register at all, and I misremembered Rica as not being marked.

[Saurel]

When I was human noble, I feel like one of the criers shouted out "Bhelen to throw away caste system! How dare him" something like that. And my guy was like huh...well hmm that changes things a bit.

[Saurel]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

I like Bhelen because he does what needs to be done. He isnt in the extreme sides of "good" and "evil". Meaning either stupid, cruel and shortsighted or too caring, indecisive and dumb.

I think his characteristics are generally positive. He seems perceptive and smart, yet caring and with principles. He is a strong ruler and way better than harrowmont imo.

Bhelen is definitely not caring and is definitely cruel at least on a personal level.

[tigrina]

lianesque wrote...

tigrina wrote...
As a dwarf you know that Bhelen's mistress is a casteless, since she quite obviously carries the
casteless facial tattoo.

Right, thanks for clarifying that. I hadn't caught on to the casteless markers yet when I started the game, so the tattoo didn't register at all, and I misremembered Rica as not being marked

Ah my pleasure. My first Origins run was on a dwarf commoner. I do want to recommend going through that Origin at least once :innocent:

[CJohnJones]

Harrowmont: Good man with bad policies.



Bhelen: Bad man with good policies.



I kind of figured this out in my first playthrough. Someone, somewhere talked about Bhelen being a progressive who valued the casteless.

[Roxlimn]

 Korva:

Bhelen can't grab power alone. Loghain can't grab power alone. No real difference there.

Actually, Bhelen has strong support already, given that his guys are going to win the Proving and he has many supporters among the Assembly.  Harrowmont is the weaker candidate and it was going to come to a head quite soon.

Loghain had no such certainty in his corner.  Even if he'd eliminated Eamon, Teagan has nearly the same principles and alliances.

Yes and no. Obviously it's not a democracy in our modern Western sense. But both in Ferelden and in Orzammar, you don't become monarch by being the biggest, fattest, most sadistic and ruthlessly power-grabbing piece of sh*t you possibly can be, either. You are chosen or at least confirmed by the nobles, i.e. the Landsmeet or the Assembly, respectively. There is no divine right to rule. There is no automatic succession of the oldest offspring of the old monarch. There is no uncontestable right of the old monarch to name a successor. Everyone can be contested and overruled by the nobles. That is a good, old tradition and it works for the county.

Such as it is.

Feudal monarchies are rarely absolute - in most cases, monarchies are defined by the explicit or the tacit support of the nobility.  At its heart, monarchy is a system of fiefs wherein a strong ruler must command the support of the nobles, lest a stronger candidates command those same nobles and get the proper military support - it's all about the arms.

And yes, you DO become King in such a system by being the "biggest, fattest, most sadistic and ruthlessly power-grabbing piece of sh*t you possibly can be."  Of course, sadism has nothing to do with it - you just threw that in as an apriori value judgment.

Nobles are not commoners, man.  They have their own interests and their own agendas, often at odds with those they rule.  Kings don't have to be kind of commoners - they just have to get the nobles' support, by whatever means they can.  There are no safeguards in Ferelden for fair play - anything goes.  You can bribe, blackmail, browbeat, or just outright replace nobles that don't support you, and that is an entirely valid way to win.

Or were you assuming that Ferelden nobles are "good" and that they stood for "truth, justice, honor, and the American way?"

Moreover, it is something the Fereldans, at least, are PROUD of. It's of great importance to them. No monarch has the right to treet the noble lords and ladies like slaves who are bullied and whipped into obedience. Loghain tries that, and it royally pisses a lot of people off, nobles and commoners alike. He stops being a Fereldan in spirit and starts acting exactly like the Orlesians he hates so much. Really a nice, bitter irony there.

I beg to differ.  As long as the monarch has the support of enough nobles, by whatever means, then he does have that right.  Ferelden is not a democracy - people don't have written legal rights.  Might makes right.  If treating lords and ladies brutally and by bullying them gets their support, then that is what you need to do to be King.

Note that YOUR character got to place the King of Ferelden on the throne purely by force of arms.  He/she essentially bullies everyone into accepting the King he/she dictates.

Of course Harrowmont is no saint. He's a dwarven noble. But from a RP perspective, he easily strikes me as more trustworthy and, for those characters who care about such things, more upstanding. Without metagaming there is no way to determine Bhelen is better for the dwarves as a whole when you are forced to choose sides. And that's my point. I don't give a whit about comparisons with RL history, I'm speaking strictly from an IC point of view at the moment of choice. For a character who believes in the Fereldan style of determining the monarch, in particular, Bhelen's actions can easily look utterly distasteful and reminiscent of Loghain's treachery topside, which could swing the decision in Harrowmont's favor.

Even from an in-character perspective, Bhelen is the better choice.  The Orzammar King is based on the voting of the Assembly - very similar to how Ferelden politics works, and Bhelen is very strong in the Assembly.  Harrowmont struck me as being untrustworthy because he never tells me what's what.  He sticks to his story and simply tells me to go do his dirty work.  Bhelen on the other hand, gives me a set of suspicious documents that he doesn't even bother to hide may or may not legal.  That alone puts him in a little bit of my power and he's showing his underside, so to speak.  It's a show of trust.

For a character born and raised in Ferelden feudal government, that is a surer sign of mutual support than Harrowmont's very cautious "I'm more moral" crap.  Bhelen is more ruthless and he does what it takes to get the job done.  That is what it takes to get votes from nobles, and noble support.  That is why it is predictable that he will make the stronger King.

[Korva]

I don't see that at all, because I simply don't equate good/strong king with being an utter tyrant. (And yes, Bhelen does strike me as a sadist, because he damn well seems to be enjoying his little game in the noble origin.)

Various dialog in Orzammar implies that the situation is a complete deadlock, it is by no means certain that Bhelen has the upper hand anywhere, except in the manipulated Provings which aren't going to dictate the outcome of the whole mess. I actually got the impression his supporters were in the minority since only a single "named" dwarf speaks out in favor of him (that merchant near the pub). Of course, the dwarven noble origin paints a somewhat different picture since Bhelen and his arselickers were able to get the middle sibling condemned without the option to even defend yourself ...

And if grabbing power by any means is so "normal", why does the lore make a point about Ferelden having different traditions? Orlais was in the right, Loghain is in the right, laws don't matter, tradition doesn't matter, honor doesn't matter, nothing matters. Not even the Blight.

Of course the Landsmeet is far from perfect and it's equally far from a proper democracy. And Harrowmont is only a good person if one ignores the ugly parts of dwarven culture. I've said that before. But there is no way I could ever consider siding with Bhelen without massive metagaming (except if I played a dwarven commoner, which I'm not interested in), just as I'd never take an option to waltz my character from Ostagar straight to Loghain for execution. It just makes zero sense IC to me.

[Saurel]

I don't really get the talk that Harrowmont is a villain. He seems to have conservative dwarven views which we would consider a bad thing, but he doesn't seem cruel or sadistic. His views seem like a product of his upbringing. Aside from that he seems like a nice guy.



I would classify him more as the old fashioned guy with some views you don't quite like but is still nice deep down but not that great as a leader. Convoluted, but thats how I would classify him.

[Saurel]

CJohnJones wrote...

Harrowmont: Good man with bad policies.

I kind of figured this out in my first playthrough. Someone, somewhere talked about Bhelen being a progressive who valued the casteless.

Exactly. Or old fashioned policies that no longer work in the world.

I swear you hear a town crier talk about Bhelen's affair and possibility of removing the casteless. Its kinda what steered my Human Rogue to help him out.

[Herr Uhl]

Saurel wrote...

Exactly. Or old fashioned policies that no longer work in the world.

I swear you hear a town crier talk about Bhelen's affair and possibility of removing the casteless. Its kinda what steered my Human Rogue to help him out.

Yes, there is a town crier crying that multiple times. The affair is not such a big problem, it is that he is seemingly taking her as a wife.

[Saurel]

Good point I was using the term affair loosely since I didn't remember the specifics

I have to say when you see Rica in the Dwarf Noble Origin, I was preparing for that to result in some serious trouble. Oddly if it did, it probably would have made Bhelen betraying you more sympathetic. If he was doing it for love .

Than again I'm not sure what reason he would have to kill you over knowing about it. Since there are Noble Hunters everywhere.

Modifié par Saurel, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:31 .

[Roxlimn]

Korva:

Oh ho! You talk a big game about making in-character decisions, but then use information no single character could possibly have at once!

A Ferelden would not have your impression from the Dwarven Origin that Bhelen is a sadist, A Dwarf would not be judging Bhelen on Ferelden values. You can't reason that way and still claim to be doing it in-character.

As for the Provings, Bhelen having a vastly greater upper hand in the Provings implies that he can use the same mechanisms to have the upper hand in the Assembly, regardless of what commoners and some nobles think of him. If he could get the job done there, then certainly, he can get the job done elsewhere. It's not like Harrowmont shows that he's equally capable in any way.

And if grabbing power by any means is so "normal", why does the lore make a point about Ferelden having different traditions? Orlais was in the right, Loghain is in the right, laws don't matter, tradition doesn't matter, honor doesn't matter, nothing matters. Not even the Blight.

The lore makes a point about Ferelden being different because it is - it doesn't mean that it isn't still all about power. Ferelden is absolutely not without its share of tyrants and abusive Kings, despite your impression of the Landsmeet. Case in point: King Arland, to name but one.

Grabbing power by any means is normal in feudal systems - because that is what works. What example, exactly, are you drawing from to think that it isn't? You think that just because the word "vote" is in there that the Landsmeet actually HAS democratic elections? With like, a secret ballot?

Meeting in an Landsmeet to vote isn't so much a democratic process so much as a more civilized manner of demonstrating which candidate has more power and influence.

Of course the Landsmeet is far from perfect and it's equally far from a proper democracy. And Harrowmont is only a good person if one ignores the ugly parts of dwarven culture. I've said that before. But there is no way I could ever consider siding with Bhelen without massive metagaming (except if I played a dwarven commoner, which I'm not interested in), just as I'd never take an option to waltz my character from Ostagar straight to Loghain for execution. It just makes zero sense IC to me.

You've given no real reasons for this. Why wouldn't your character side with Bhelen. He IS a Grey Warden, right? Part of an order that does anything to win? If anything, one might say that characters like Duncan would think that Bhelen has the right mindset.

Harrowmont accuses Bhelen of treason and murder. This actually cannot be proven - neither can Harrowmont's claim that Endrin chose him as successor. Conversely, Bhelen claims innocence, as well as charging Harrowmont with treason and regicide. These claims also cannot be proven. There is no proof either way that each man is morally superior, and as it turns out, neither man is superior to the other in this manner. The guard says so as much. "There are no Paragons here."

Even Branka, who IS a Paragon turns out to a mad power-hungry SOB. In the absence of moral choices, you go with the guy who gets things done - because you are a Grey Warden and that's what you care about.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 04 décembre 2009 - 01:57 .

[Malkavianqueen]

I think the Dwarf Commoner Origin puts Bhelen into a better light...Rica is actually your sister in this origin and she seems so happy with him...Although, the money/new house/ might have something to do with it....



You would feel like a major jerk if you sided with Harrowmont in this case...



I think the whole Dwarven politics bit was supposed to be mildly ambiguous if you play a non-Dwarf...Because you're not a dwarf. When you play through BOTH of the dwarven origins, you get a better sense of what actually went down here. Which is neat because the game intertwines all of the origins...

[Dark83]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Ok I got a question. In my guide it says, "It really doesn't matter which politician you choose; they're both corrupt to some degree." The only one that I saw that was corrupt was Prince Bhelen well, it was his second-in-command Vartag. He gives you forged documents to turn a couple of people away from Harrowmont. What does Harrowmont do? I tried to play both sides, got as far as doing the Proving Grounds n Vartag confronted me about it n I lied n said something about what better way to spy on your enemy or some bs like that; but then I went to talk to a certain person n found out that the documents I had were forged n that pissed me off cause Harrowmont (Dulin) hadn't asked anything of me like that lol.

It's implied that Harrowmont poisoned the king, by having someone within Bhelen's palace poisoned as well.

MadCat221 wrote...

A recommended read for Harrowmont advocates

This is why even playing the dwarf noble, I like Bhelen. I'm a big fan of The Patrician (Havelock, of course).

As a dwarf commoner, you're placed firmly on Bhelen's side.

tigrina wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Who would you rather have as a leader in a time of war, Chamberlain or Churchill?

Since I totally suck at history, I have no answer on that ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png

Chamberlain
brought "peace in our time" by negociating with the Third Reich, and
giving up territory in the process. Churchill led the war against said
regime.

You should be very aware of these people, so that when you hear how Dubya was like Churchill in his response to 9/11, you can see it as properganda. Churchill stood in the streets of London while it was being bombed to show defiance, Dubya was squirreled away in a secret bunker.

Note that a strong king tends to be good for the nation, even if it's not good for the people in the nation. In this case. Bhelen is a strong leader, and the casteless (a giant population, apparently) all get a chance in life. It's win-win.

Arduine wrote...

I think the Dwarf Commoner Origin puts
Bhelen into a better light...Rica is actually your sister in this
origin and she seems so happy with him...Although, the money/new house/
might have something to do with it....

You would feel like a
major jerk if you sided with Harrowmont in this case...

The fact
that you become your sister's mortal enemy for killing her baby's daddy
and completely ruining her life may have to do with it. She went from a
non-person to practically a queen, only to have her brother make her a
non-person with a baby to support. Anyone who plays a dorf commoner and
sides with Harrowmont, then is surprised their sister treats you as
scum, hasn't been paying attention.

Modifié par Dark83, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:27 .