44 réponses à ce sujet

[cJohnOne]

What are the implications of lowering the Difficulty of DA2?  That everyone needs feel like a badass  so more people can have fun on Nightmare at a lower difficulty?  Or Is Nightmare just for the very few people who can do well there?  What do you think about DA2's difficulty?

Modifié par cJohnOne, 31 mars 2012 - 02:49 .

[SuicidalBaby]

The patches that lowered enemy elite and boss hp while limiting the damage they could take from any one source attempted to do just that.

It will probably be more wave mechanics regardless of difficulty.

[Lintanis]

How about adding a friendly fire toggle on every level of difficulty 

[SuicidalBaby]

Lintanis wrote...

How about adding a friendly fire toggle on every level of difficulty 

because then, nightmare, wouldn't be nightmare.

[nightscrawl]

cJohnOne wrote...

What are the implications of lowering the Difficulty of DA2?  That everyone needs feel like a badass  so more people can have fun on Nightmare at a lower difficulty?  Or Is Nightmare just for the very few people who can do well there?  What do you think about DA2's difficulty?

I'm not really sure where you're coming from with this post. Are you specifically arguing against nerfs to Nightmare, or is this about the game overall?

I'm reminded of a recent nerf and raid mechanic that Blizzard (World of Warcraft) recently put in their most recent raid lowering the health and damage output of all mobs in the raid by 5% (first wave), then 10% (second wave), now it's up to 15% (third wave) and so on for the past few weeks, until I assume it will reach a max of 30% like happened in the final raid of the previous expansion (you can turn this feature off in the raid by talking to an NPC). This was on top of nerfs and fixes done to the encounters on both normal and heroic difficulties since the release of the content patch. Their reasoning for this was their data tells them that many guilds doing both difficulties eventually hit a wall that they cannot progress past. It's different for every guild and the reasons vary, so they put in this % mechanic to help these people along in their progression. This is after the top guilds in the world already completed all of the content. A similar type of furor arose, especially in relation to heroic difficulty as many want it to be as exclusive as possible.

I'm wondering if Bioware might not have similar reasons for their nerfs to Nightmare. The scenario is as follows: the game is released and the super hardcore strategists go through the game with a fine-toothed comb figuring out the best builds, best party makeup, best gear, and best tactics for all of the encounters on Nightmare. Then many of those same people post detailed and elaborate guides, including videos on these forums. Well those hard working and dedicated gamers have already done all of the work and proven just how badass and awesome they are. So, Bioware might think that all of the following players that are able to take advantage of those guides, but still not have that one extra thing that lets them beat the encounters need some help, so they put in nerfs.

Or it really could just be that they felt that the NM mode overall was just tuned too highly, which is only something that they would realize once their product gets into the wild and they can start gathering data from telemetry and the millions of people playing.

On the other hand, if you're speaking of the game as a whole and all difficulties, I disagree. In DAO, I am forced to play on Easy because I don't want to bother with friendly fire at all, especially since my main class in that game is mage. I thought that the difficulty modes for DA2 were perfect, and had something for everyone. The first couple of times I played on Casual, then I grew bored and switched to Normal. I've tried Hard a couple of times, but the extra effort (and time investment) needed for the fights isn't really something I'm interested in. Nightmare, being the only mode in DA2 with friendly fire I think should stay as is, as I believe people know what they're getting to when they switch to it.

[cJohnOne]

I sort of have a feeling that if the game is too easy the guys won't respect it. Or is that not important at all?

[Tigerman123]

IIRC only 2% of players tried nightmare

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I think the difficulties are fine, you can make it easy or hard, whatever you like.

[nightscrawl]

cJohnOne wrote...

I sort of have a feeling that if the game is too easy the guys won't respect it. Or is that not important at all?

But that's what harder difficulty levels are for. The whole game doesn't need to be harder overall for a small subset of players who feel it has to be harder for whatever reason. If on the other hand, you feel that Nightmare was "easy" or "a joke" as I've seen some say, well that's awesome for you. However, I'm sure Bioware has metrics for people who actually played and completed both Hard and Nightmare, so I think they are the ones to best decide if it was too difficult overall, not difficult enough, or just where they want it to be.

I'll add though that difficulty doesn't really seem to be as important a consideration on the boards as any of the other game features such as voice, conversation system (ie dialogue wheel), writing, plot/story direction, or any number of myriad things that people rant about. Combat and combat components (feedback, ccc, targeting, specializations, buffs, overpowered classes vs underpowered classes, etc), yes I will say that those are significant and a part of game difficulty as a whole -- clunky combat mechanics can make a game more difficult than it has to be.

cJohnOne, you still haven't really given any specifics about the issue, whether you think it's too hard/easy, how you felt it compared to DAO in difficulty, whether you are just speaking of Nightmare or the entire game, or even what difficulty you play at.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 31 mars 2012 - 04:38 .

[alchemist42]

Only 2% play nightmare ? That I find astonishing considering how popular the series is.

I learnt DA2 on normal, moved to hard on 2nd playthrough and when that became too easy did the research on this forum for immunities, friendly fire, CCC which breathed new life into the game. So what’s the deal here, if its only 2% playing NM, then is it the case most people can’t be bothered to do the research ?

I play NM because it presents tricky problems that can’t be solved simply by button mashing, I have a maths background, by nature I like solving complex puzzles and tricky problems, so I find NM great fun.

The other thing worth noting, I’d say most people probably only move to NM on their 2nd playthrough, knowing what’s coming up makes a huge difference to how difficult this mode is, pre-knowledge, being prepared reduces the difficulty considerably. I just bought MoTA and played this on NM first time through, what a blast not knowing what to expect at this level ! (I died quite a few times before sussing out how to use Tallis effectively, but that’s the fun right).

Without NM mode, I’d have stopped playing long time ago. If only 2% play this mode, then maybe most people play normal and then move on to a new game, whilst the hard core who love DA2 move on to the harder levels. To sum up, making NM easier just spoils it for the hard core, because the casual players have mostly moved on anyway.

[Hexedcoder]

Nightmare should be so hard that if you do not follow Batman or Gerault levels of prepardness, in equipment tuning, resistance checking, consumable stocking, rune equiping, stat min/maxing, you will be curb-stomped by all contenders until you understand how to survive.

Casual levels should be so easy you can live with the loot you get off the ground without having to worry or care about what is in your inventory.

It probably leads into different AI's with regard to what abilities enemies use, how friendly fire works, what resistances/stats enemies have, and the number/type of enemies.

But, when it comes down to it, I am an elietist and the harder difficulties should be where the epic fights happen with more abilities/spells/creatures and...stuff being slung around on your screen.

But...yeah the 2% play NM does not surprise me.  I don't know if that is for a full playthrough or if it counts people who play NM and tune down the difficulty level if they just feel an encounter is too hard and they just don't want to deal with it before ratcheting it back up.

Modifié par Hexedcoder, 31 mars 2012 - 04:51 .

[cJohnOne]

I thought it was well known that I'm a bad player. I'm refering to good players. For myself personally the difficulties are fine but I'd like to fine tune it for the good players. Why not make them happy as it were. Some of the good player seem to have left this board. Some due to it getting old but some due to the patch. At least that was my impression.

Yes I like the difficulty level better pre-patch even for the lower difficulties.


Don't quite remember when comparing to DAO but I think DAO was more challenging on the lower difficulties at least the HighDragon.

Modifié par cJohnOne, 31 mars 2012 - 07:14 .

[cJohnOne]

Tigerman123 wrote...

IIRC only 2% of players tried nightmare

Hah, Hah.  Does that mean that Casual gamers rule the Internetz?

[Davillo]

I can't play on any other difficulty except nightmare, when I tried a different difficulty it felt as if I was missing out on the game. Things die way to quick on anything but nightmare, I don't even get to go through half my spells on hard things just die quickly from auto attacking,

[Davillo]

Bioware should introduce a higher difficulty setting for those that complete nightmare, like insanity difficulty or something although I don't know how that would fit in DA:2 maybe the next one with have different mechanics.

[andraip]

Easier? HELL NO! If someone can't play DA2 at easy then he/she is a failure at life or phisically handicaped. Sorry to anyone who I migth have hurt with this (I expect there to be no one) but this is how I feel. At easy you don't even have to do anything, your 3 companions will handle it with standard tactics, even if you have auto lvlup toggled... (and with any party combination).

As for Nightmare, well it could be harder, but, if there weren't any item packs it would be that easy as it is now. So I suggest to scrap the Item Packs first. If Bioware were to make some FREE item Packs (with more or less recycled models) and you would need to purchase the items ingame in a store or so...

More important then higher difficulties is the fun imo, some things were just annoying, like the knockback on the archers, that besides, never missed a shot. Or the friendly fire that would one-shot your tank but leave an normal enemy unharmed...

[Tigerman123]

Nightmare should really have been Hard, it's the only difficulty where the combat really comes into it's own with CCC and such, it's a shame 98% of players didn't experience the real game

[nightscrawl]

Tigerman123 wrote...

Nightmare should really have been Hard, it's the only difficulty where the combat really comes into it's own with CCC and such, it's a shame 98% of players didn't experience the real game

That depends on your perspective really. I play Dragon Age for the story, not to kill things. I have other games where I raid, worry about fine tuning gear, boss strategies and so forth, it's nice to do something else. When I played Neverwinter Nights I made a custom module for myself where I could use DM commands to increase my level, give myself a lot of gold, and buy nice gear before loading into the main game. It was quite nice that I didn't have to worry about any of that while playing.

You say that it's a "shame." If the base game were as difficult as Hard or Nightmare, people would get frustrated and stop playing, and even worse, that might lead them to not buy another Bioware game for fear of the same thing happening. So in the end, isn't it nice that there is something for everyone? You get to experience the game like you want, and some other person gets to play how they want. Everyone wins.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 01 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[Tigerman123]

That was a clumsy use of language, I only meant the combat aspect of the game. I suppose I was mostly referring to a frequent criticism of DA2; that it was a button masher, or that it dumbed down DAO's 'tactical' combat. A major source of this has got to be the fact that most played on normal, where enemies explode at the slightest touch, rather than the higher difficulties, which play more like a puzzle, like Alchemist said. That doesn't really show the game at it's best and rendered many of the new features like CCC superfluous, I'd wager that many players never triggered one intentionally, seems like a waste to me. Imo the normal difficulty should force you to be at least familiar with all aspects of the combat system, but in DA2 you could get away with just controlling Hawke and spamming A like in that gif . There is always casual or easy for players that don't care about combat

www.neogaf.com/~tyler/da2ot-04.gif

Modifié par Tigerman123, 01 avril 2012 - 07:24 .

[SuicidalBaby]

you have to consider that 2% is from players finishing the game on nightmare. You also have to consider the initial version of the game, as rogues on nightmare were absolutely vicious and could not be ignored for even half a second. 1 rogue could cause a reload very easily.

I have never played this game on any difficulty other than nightmare and I can tell you it is not for everyone until this recent patch. This latest patch has reduced the frustration of nightmare considerably.

I still believe warrior elites should have more health than rogue elites and bosses should have kept their original hp levels, but for the most part Nightmare is only difficult to me now because of the limitations applied by friendly fire. If there was no friendly fire, it would be as if anyone else playing on normal or casual to me. Part of that comes from familiarity, another from extreme examination of all elements in the game and my personal play style, aggressive.

The original version of the game was designed as frustration induced difficulty via broken enemies. Rogues, High Dragon fireball tracking like heat seeking missiles, Sarrabas casting while invisible from a teleport cast that did not go anywhere, just down right hair pulling, controller throwing, OMG frustration at times.

The combat and tactics systems implemented in the release were not fully tested as there were several huge bugs and still are. (jump to tactic is still x-1)

All of these things contributed to the lack of Nightmare playthroughs.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 01 avril 2012 - 02:19 .

[SSH83]

In short, just two things:

- properly matching player to a fitting difficulty:  because hipsters who talk **** actually play on normal and never turn difficulty up, only down.  Yes, they are that dumb.  I have survey numbers to prove it.

- friendly fire toggle:  a simple way to DOUBLE the amount of effective difficulty mode options.  also an easy way to cater to player more.

In detail:

I think nightmare should not get nerfed. Nightmare should just be nightmare. If someone in QA can beat nightmare, then that's all the validation that nightmare needs.  If an easier setting is needed, create a new difficulty setting.

The thing is though, for the arrogant weaksauce hipsters (who unfortunately make up the majority of our net communities), game designers can't simply make a truly challenging game. Designers have to make a game that pretends to be complex but easy enough that these losers would feel like they're awesome (without ever really failing and learning from their failure).

That's the real challenge here. DA2 was perfect for casual (normal), and perfect for truly hardcore(nighmare), however, they didn't to account for the hipsters. Hipsters will play on normal, not even switch to hard, and berate the game for being too easy. I did a survey before and most players never change difficulty up, only down. I think the main change DA3 will need is properly matching player to a fitting difficulty.  LIke a difficulty wizard.  Let player try difficult challenges in different settings at the start of the game for example.

And also make friendly fire optional toggle in all difficulties. This is an easy change that will double the # of effective difficulty setting, allowing an even closer level of catering to different players.

Modifié par SSH83, 01 avril 2012 - 03:31 .

[Realmzmaster]

Davillo wrote...

Bioware should introduce a higher difficulty setting for those that complete nightmare, like insanity difficulty or something although I don't know how that would fit in DA:2 maybe the next one with have different mechanics.

Bioware could put in Ironman rules where the game is only save after you exit playing and there is only one save file. Death (or unconciousness) of the main character means game over and the save file deletes. No reassignment of attributes points or skills once allocated.  At the start of the playthrough you select  if you want to play Nightmare with Iron man rules.

[Hexedcoder]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Davillo wrote...

Bioware should introduce a higher difficulty setting for those that complete nightmare, like insanity difficulty or something although I don't know how that would fit in DA:2 maybe the next one with have different mechanics.

Bioware could put in Ironman rules where the game is only save after you exit playing and there is only one save file. Death (or unconciousness) of the main character means game over and the save file deletes. No reassignment of attributes points or skills once allocated.  At the start of the playthrough you select  if you want to play Nightmare with Iron man rules.

But that's unnecessary given how people can do that anyway, it would only be a matter of convinience so you don't have to go back and delete/remove your data.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I've not played on nightmare yet, though I plan to in my next playthrough. Casual is definitely too easy, even for someone who is crap at the combat. Even my mam played on normal and she only plays for the story and characters.

In DA:O I found normal a bit too difficult and casual a bit too easy (I was a complete noob at the time and knew nothing of tanks or crowd control etc). Normal in DA2 I actually thought was perfect for beginners so really that could have been the casual setting.

I think putting the difficulty up a notch would be fine if the game explained tactics and strategy a bit for the noobs. My hard playthrough was easier than my normal playthrough just because I'd actually figured out what I was doing by then. Having the ability to respec your powers in DA2 was a godsend, if your build in Origins is crap then tough but in DA2 you have the ability to fix it.