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Pleasing the 'Hardcore'/'Retake' fans is not as significant to Bioware's 'future' as you'd think


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#1
pikey1969

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NOTE: This is me looking at the situation from what I perceive to be Bioware's perspective.

Bioware has been pretty clear to me so far. They're obviously taken back and disheartened by the level of fan response/movements (unprecedented in all of gaming history), but they're mostly definitely going to be sticking to their guns on this. 'Clarifications' will most likely be offered as somewhat of a consolation (most likely to be announced at Pax in one form or the other). At least that much, the Retake movement has earned and it's the most realistic solution that Bioware can offer. It will not appease the most hardcore fans, but the fans will grow tired, will become divided over how 'acceptable' the solution is, the numbers would be diminish regardless at this point anyway (a whole month it will have been since launch). I can kind of sympathize with Bioware on that resolution (as disappointed as I was with the quality of the endings, the games were still great), and I can definitely accept that as a gesture of good will and as a promise that they will defintely pay a LOT more attention to how they conclude their games.

Ultimately, I just can't see, more importantly Bioware/EA can't possibly think they'd losing as many fans, at least not enough for them to do a 180 on the issue. Aside from a professional poll being commissioned (UBER EXPENSIVE BTW) and somehow providing STRONG GAMECHANGING evidence to indicate otherwise. While the whole '60k disgruntled fans vs millions of sales' arguement doesn't hold to work against the fan's opinions, the BSN polls/outcries can just as easily fall apart if you start getting into reliable/realistic statistics.

Basically, there will likely be a bit of an exodus of the 'hardcore' base for any future support/purchases, but enough of the fans will stick around. That said, even if many of the long-time/hardcore fans are lost, new fans can be gained. Also, sure the endings were botched, but the quality of the 100s of hours of content prior to that indicate that Bioware is still capable of producing quality content. And there will be people willing to give Bioware another chance on that basis, not to mention they'll continue to get great reviews because well... aside from the endings the games themselves are more or less perfectly fine, amazing even, and nevermind that those positive reviews will have a very big sway on how well a game will sell, especially combined with the kind of marketing/production dollars that EA will support Bioware with.

Many of the Bioware fans here in the Retake movement will become the 'former-Bullfrog/NWN fans' of today, citing too familiar tales of caution of 'how awesome company X used to be but went downhill cause of *insert whatever here*. You see people like that all the time, I am sure many of you, yourselves, have just ignored them in the past as overtly-disgruntled fans. If someone came up to you before you saw the ME3 endings and said "Bioware's been going downhill since selling Neverwinter Nights series and ending it hte way they did" would you have seriously contemplated not touching ME3? I wouldn't have. Did you listen to the angry DA fans and the hooplah over the DA2 endings prior to ME3's release? I didn't, it's also obvious many of you didn't either (btw, DA2 endings worked more or less fine imo).

I know many of you are really holding on to the hope here, but really if you remove the emotional attatchment, this is the only course of outcome that is in line with everything Bioware/EA has done and said so far.

Hold the line, hold on to your hopes, but it's also about time you seriously think about where this is going, and what you'll do about it. 

Personally, I don't expect Bioware to do all that much much about ME3 ending situation, but I WILL be carefully watching to see how they handle thier future games. They do fantastic work, it's just they obviously have problems with endings (whether due to time/budget constraints or just the way they do things). Hopefully this debacle will have them seriously look into how they fix that issue. 

I will be carefully watching to see if this lesson sticks for Bioware for their future projects, but to those of you expecting a 'triumph' for ME3's situation after the upcoming announcement in April... I think it's about time we let go and start making future plans of our own.

Modifié par pikey1969, 05 avril 2012 - 03:50 .


#2
Reptilian Rob

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EA tends to suck the life out of everything it touches.

#3
Blackmind1

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Yes they are important, you just aren't getting the fix as fast as you want it. These things take work, have some patience.

I still think it would be awesome if everybody who ****ed about Bioware, twisted their statements, and gave them a stupidly hard time, would just leave the fanbse when they prove you wrong. Like they keep saying they will

Modifié par Blackmind1, 31 mars 2012 - 07:29 .


#4
Isichar

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Right, screw us, we are bugs to be crushed in Biowares glory

#5
KingKhan03

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Man how could they mess up ME3 wow this was my favorite game series of all time..i cant believe it.

#6
pikey1969

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Blackmind1 wrote...

Yes they are important, you just aren't getting the fix as fast as you want it. These things take work, have some patience.

I still think it would be awesome if everybody who ****ed about Bioware, twisted their statements, and gave them a stupidly hard time, would just leave the fanbse when they prove you wrong. Like they keep saying they will


The thing is people want the 'fix' for this game.

Bioware will definitely learn from this, and it will more than likely teach them a lesson or two about the importance of how they wrap up their stories.

But those lessons are very unlikely to do anything about the way ME3 is.

#7
effortname

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Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

#8
Dreogan

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I agree with you, for the most part. However, please don't downplay the effect a group of people saying "x was suck, stay away from suck" to the general public-- especially if they were former loyal customers.

Whether or not the group saying "x was suck" reaches critical mass (the number of people that will cause a significant drop in future sales) is entirely up to Bioware at this point. If their business is built on storytelling, and indeed the only thing they have to offer that is unique is storytelling, then it's up to them to convince their audience they can resolve a trilogy's story successfully. Their goal at this point is not to make everyone happy, but to show us they place huge importance on their audience's satisfaction.

To do otherwise, to give people the ammunition for them to say "they said they could tell a story, but they're incompetent with resolution" is damning for their raison d'etre.

Modifié par Dreogan, 31 mars 2012 - 07:38 .


#9
Harbinger of your Destiny

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effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.

#10
Xandax

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Over the last couple of years it's been pretty clear that Bioware wants to expand it's customer base away from the 'hardcore' fans into the more casual fans.

Whether it's a right move is impossible to predict, however the hardcore fans are usually the ones that pre-order the large editions, collector editions etc - and casual fans buy the game when it comes out or on sale and moves on to the next shining thing fast.
The advantage of the casual base is that it's larger - but it is more fickle.

#11
Cazlee

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Clarifications and back stories will help, but can only do so much.
They have give the endings more variation to show that Shepard's choices mattered in order to achieve the hardcore fan expectation of replayability.

Modifié par Cazlee, 31 mars 2012 - 07:40 .


#12
pikey1969

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Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.


For every evidence in gaming history that support your viewpoint, there are just as many evidences that indicate otherwise.

#13
pikey1969

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Xandax wrote...

Over the last couple of years it's been pretty clear that Bioware wants to expand it's customer base away from the 'hardcore' fans into the more casual fans.

Whether it's a right move is impossible to predict, however the hardcore fans are usually the ones that pre-order the large editions, collector editions etc - and casual fans buy the game when it comes out or on sale and moves on to the next shining thing fast.
The advantage of the casual base is that it's larger - but it is more fickle.


COD man. And COD has been even more abusive to its hardcore fans on a FAR greater scale.

If you guys think Bioware's handling of fans is poor, you guys need to look at the state of the rest of the gaming industry.

#14
corporal doody

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Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.


i dunno man. That might be the problem....trying to cater and kowtow to a small portion of individuals that purchase the product(s) is bad business sense. Thats what incentives are for i think. otherwise...you risk alienating EVERYONE else...and in the end you die as a developer...mostly cuz the COMMUNITY (or mobbed up portion thereof) is dictating policy!

Modifié par corporal doody, 31 mars 2012 - 07:43 .


#15
Guest_SwobyJ_*

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Oh if they can do without my money, I can do without spending it. Ball is ALWAYS in the developer's and publisher's court.

#16
Blackmind1

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Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.


No, you get new hardcore fans, and the old hardcore fans move on to a new fandom. A developer isn't allocated a set number of fans, and when they're gone, they're gone. Personally, everybody is overreacting about this situation. They've done one complete game wrong in their entire lifespan, and 1% of the latest game. The game they did completely wrong was rushed out by EA, and after it happened, EA had to issue a public apology. Some people may not know this, but Casey himself agreed to the 2 year deadline. They thought they could handle it, but they obviously couldn't. They asked for an expansion to a time they thought would give them more lee-way, and they got it. 

This ending is nothing more than a human error. And if most of you get this crazy over a human error in real life, then I fear for your social life. You paid money, you got your voices heard, you're getting your fix. You all need to stop assuming you'll have to pay for it, or that EA forced them to release it, because unless they say otherwise, they're innocent until proven guilty.

Some of you seem to forget that games such as Dead Space 1/2 and The Sims franchises are all developed over a longer span than two years, so it clearly isn't an EA rule at all. Casey thought he could handle it, he couldn't. We're getting our fix, so people need to just be patient.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 31 mars 2012 - 07:46 .


#17
tenojitsu

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For me, aside from the ending, there are other reasons why I may no longer turn to BioWare with my dollars. The requirement of multiplayer being mandatory for maximize the single player experience, to me, is unethical. I'm not here to debate why or if it is or isnt, but its my opinion. The biggest reason, however, is the reduction of RPG elements throughout the progression of the series. I got interested in ME1 because it was an RPG, period. ME2 came along and I saw the reduction of weapon/armor choice, the removal of random planet exploring mission, and other streamlining attempts, but I was still satisfied as an RPG lover. ME3 comes along, and low and behold it is barely an RPG anymore. The conversations that I used to know and love are gone, replaced by interactions with squadmates that dont even illicit a reaction from the companion I am talking to. Seriously, is it took much to at least face in my direction when we speak? I again all side missions by an intrusive radio transmission from Hackett or by eavesdropping on the Citadel? Eavesdropping? Really? I would like to earn at least a few of my side missions by having to poke around a bit to discover them, not have them just thrown at me. Oh yeah, and the ending...

Dont understand me wrong, ME3 (aside from the ending) is still a fun game. However, if the current trend towards mass appeal keeps ripping more and more RPG elements from the series, which I think will happen for the next game in the series, I dont see why even bother. I love my Shepard and it was a terrific ride, but unless BioWare remembers what got them to where they are, and fast, I see no reason to go back to the ME universe.

I hope I'm wrong about the future ME games though.

#18
Legendaryred

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corporal doody wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.


i dunno man. That might be the problem....trying to cater and kowtow to a small portion of individuals that purchase the product(s) is bad business sense. Thats what incentives are for i think. otherwise...you risk alienating EVERYONE else...and in the end you die as a developer...mostly cuz the COMMUNITY (or mobbed up portion thereof) is dictating policy!



If your product is good enough to satisfy a "small" group like a hardcore fanbase you won't go out of business. How did you think ME1 made it into ME2 and then into ME3? Not many people gave 2 cents when ME1 came out, and that's when BW started to build a fanbase for ME, that same fanbase bought ME2 which brought more people in as it was more in par with other games at the time. Plenty of developers do just fine by pleasing a small group of fans.

#19
Sohlito

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There are even "casual" fans that dislike the ending. So it isn't as clear-cut as "hardcore" vs. "casual", "new" vs "old".

Also, DA2 wasn't the end of that franchise. While this is not the end of the Mass Effect franchise, it was the final, closing chapter in Shepard's story. This was not the way to handle an ending that even Bioware devs knew was highly anticipated.

And to address one more thing, those that say we're getting our "fix" are mistaken. There is no fix, there has been no mention of a fix, it's "clarification". Which, if I may say as a matter of personal opinion, is quite condescending in it's own right.

#20
Aweus

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OP some of things you say are valid but tell me one thing. What can Bioware gain (or avoid to loose) if they do decide to dismiss the Retake people? Pride? Is ending up with a bigger ego really a good goal for a corporation like this? What we have here are a bunch of people who are basically throwing their money at Bioware. Why wouldnt they want to pick that up?

#21
Blackmind1

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Legendaryred wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.


i dunno man. That might be the problem....trying to cater and kowtow to a small portion of individuals that purchase the product(s) is bad business sense. Thats what incentives are for i think. otherwise...you risk alienating EVERYONE else...and in the end you die as a developer...mostly cuz the COMMUNITY (or mobbed up portion thereof) is dictating policy!



If your product is good enough to satisfy a "small" group like a hardcore fanbase you won't go out of business. How did you think ME1 made it into ME2 and then into ME3? Not many people gave 2 cents when ME1 came out, and that's when BW started to build a fanbase for ME, that same fanbase bought ME2 which brought more people in as it was more in par with other games at the time. Plenty of developers do just fine by pleasing a small group of fans.


It would have been completed regardless of the fans. They planned a complete story for this trilogy way back in 2003, specifically for the 360 (or XBOX 2 as it was known then). Obviously, these things cost a lot of money, and there's an extremely high chance that a lot of the money is fronted from Bioware itself, especially with the first game.

You simply cannot do well in this day and age by pleasing only a small group. Gaming is getting larger by the year, and if a project can't make millions it likely gets brushed off. The only way a small group of dedicated fans can keep a studio afloat is if it's an indie company dedicated to a single platform. 

It's likely that the only reason you even got ME2/ME3 was because they were able to broaden their horizons out to other groups of gamers. Thus making a game of this scope more profitable.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 31 mars 2012 - 07:51 .


#22
effortname

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No, you get new hardcore fans, and the old hardcore fans move on to a new fandom. A developer isn't allocated a set number of fans, and when they're gone, they're gone. Personally, everybody is overreacting about this situation. They've done one complete game wrong in their entire lifespan, and 1% of the latest game. The game they did completely wrong was rushed out by EA, and after it happened, EA had to issue a public apology. Some people may not know this, but Casey himself agreed to the 2 year deadline. They thought they could handle it, but they obviously couldn't. They were asked for an expansion to a time they thought would give them more lee-way, and they got it.


Of course they'll get new fans, but it's a simple calculus of rates here: it takes a while to build up a fanbase, and especially long to remake something like what they have now. In that time, they'll be losing a lot of goodwill-derived money.

Also, to your second point: a trend in recent releases is always more important in the entertainment industry than an extended history of products. Bioware has screwed up twice in a row now, and people have clearly noticed.

#23
legionaireshen

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I think what will likely happen is bioware wont make anything like me series, a trilogy with save import, since they apparently dont have a ability to make choices really matter, or their timetable doesnt allow them to so,

#24
Mad-Hamlet

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If OP starts handing out fish and bread we can call it Sermon on the Mount Part 2.

#25
corporal doody

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Legendaryred wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

effortname wrote...

Hardcore fans are the idiots who buy all your merchandise, take pictures of themselves cosplaying your characters, and generally do other stupid crap to spread word of mouth all over the place. It's really not good at all for a company to lose millions of dollars in free marketing.

This, hardcore fans are the life blood of any succesful franchise. You lose them and you might never get them back and in the end you die as a developer.


i dunno man. That might be the problem....trying to cater and kowtow to a small portion of individuals that purchase the product(s) is bad business sense. Thats what incentives are for i think. otherwise...you risk alienating EVERYONE else...and in the end you die as a developer...mostly cuz the COMMUNITY (or mobbed up portion thereof) is dictating policy!



If your product is good enough to satisfy a "small" group like a hardcore fanbase you won't go out of business. How did you think ME1 made it into ME2 and then into ME3? Not many people gave 2 cents when ME1 came out, and that's when BW started to build a fanbase for ME, that same fanbase bought ME2 which brought more people in as it was more in par with other games at the time. Plenty of developers do just fine by pleasing a small group of fans.


name the developers and name the games please.  As much as we dont like it....Bioware is no longer the company it once was back in the day...it is big time..wearing big boy pants...they cant just please a small group.