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Pleasing the 'Hardcore'/'Retake' fans is not as significant to Bioware's 'future' as you'd think


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#26
Chuvvy

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

EA tends to suck the life out of everything it touches.


Bioware will be an empty, souless, company in a few years. Like Infinity Ward, or Treyarch, something that is used only to crap out games, not inovate or do anything meaningful. That's why EA has opened 3 studios under the bioware name already.

Bioware Edmonton (The original)
Bioware Montreal
Bioware Austin
Bioware Mythic

That is more telling than any of the stuff bioware has done so far, to me anyway.

Modifié par Slidell505, 31 mars 2012 - 07:55 .


#27
Blackmind1

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effortname wrote...

No, you get new hardcore fans, and the old hardcore fans move on to a new fandom. A developer isn't allocated a set number of fans, and when they're gone, they're gone. Personally, everybody is overreacting about this situation. They've done one complete game wrong in their entire lifespan, and 1% of the latest game. The game they did completely wrong was rushed out by EA, and after it happened, EA had to issue a public apology. Some people may not know this, but Casey himself agreed to the 2 year deadline. They thought they could handle it, but they obviously couldn't. They were asked for an expansion to a time they thought would give them more lee-way, and they got it.


Of course they'll get new fans, but it's a simple calculus of rates here: it takes a while to build up a fanbase, and especially long to remake something like what they have now. In that time, they'll be losing a lot of goodwill-derived money.

Also, to your second point: a trend in recent releases is always more important in the entertainment industry than an extended history of products. Bioware has screwed up twice in a row now, and people have clearly noticed.


They've hardly screwed up twice in a row. They screwed up once, after making a multi-award winning videogame, and then news got out that EA rushed it out in Alpha. It was originally supposed to be an expansion pack. EA had to offer a public apology over the matter and everything. I don''t know how long you've been a fan, but being one since BG1, I'm perfectly able to put my faith in them fixing this. People forget that BG2 had this exact problem that ME3 is having to a lot of fans, so they made Throne of Baal, which is considered one of the greatest WRPG stories ever written. Most of you need to stop being so pessimistic.

Modifié par Blackmind1, 31 mars 2012 - 07:56 .


#28
MrnDpty161

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Yeah thats a winning argument ---- focus on the button smashing robots while screwing over your real fan base.

Good job.

Got something to say to you folks, they'll be right back playing Modern WF MP while yours will be filled with dust balls and silence.

Side with those who are more interested in seeing you strive than what your heading for now.

#29
KevShep

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Xandax wrote...

Over the last couple of years it's been pretty clear that Bioware wants to expand it's customer base away from the 'hardcore' fans into the more casual fans.

.


Doesnt Bioware know that if they stick to there hardcore fanbase that the casual fans will follow?

#30
Sypher_KoS

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This whole situation has placed BW in a bad light. Devoted fans are weary of thier next purchase and the casual gamer will tend to ignore any new title that is not established. ME3 did so well initially because it was hyped to everyone everywhere in the months leading up to release. After this game the next big franchise title they have is DA3. DA2 is done, its DLC cut down and abandoned by BW. I would wager that ME3's DLC content will also feel the brunt of this shockwave if BW does not see fit to address these issues beyond clarification and some text epilogue.

For some this is now strike three for BW, the others being DA2 and TOR. The damage has already been done, and casual gamers are not going to flock to a new title from BW the way the hardcore fans would no questions asked. ME and DA both were helped by strong word of mouth from rabid BW fans. I know that I wouldn't have picked up either without it being suggested by a clerk who had been playing BW games since Baldur's gate. My friends would not have picked these same games up had it not been for my constant badgering for them to buy these games.

It's easy to get blinded by numbers when it comes to the sales of ME3, but as I said this is a game that was hyped more than the second coming of Christ. Let them try to release a brand new title from the ground up and see how badly they'll miss the no questions asked pre-order metality of thier hardcore fans.

#31
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There is one thing you have to remember about Biowares "hardcore" fanbase. And that is nr.1 they are mostly "old" people, with a good amount of monet (compared to COD which is teens). Nr.2 Bioware was built, both on reputation and how big they became on their "hardcore" fans.

One shining relativly resent example of this is DA:O, this game did not get alot of advertising money, yet has sold an astounding amount of copies, DLC content etc. This from what ive gathered happened mostly by "word of mouth".

Sure its good to have a large casual consumer base, and you can do so with quite a few games, specailly the really shallow ones (again like COD). However the games Bioware makes are mostly "adult" games. I dont think Biowares games can survive without their hardcore fans. The games they make are no "cookie cutter" enough for that.

#32
pikey1969

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KevShep wrote...

Xandax wrote...

Over the last couple of years it's been pretty clear that Bioware wants to expand it's customer base away from the 'hardcore' fans into the more casual fans.

.


Doesnt Bioware know that if they stick to there hardcore fanbase that the casual fans will follow?


Bioware, well more importantly EA, also understands that is not always the way it needs to work.

Plus, you can always find new hardcore fans.

#33
pikey1969

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Sypher_KoS wrote...

This whole situation has placed BW in a bad light. Devoted fans are weary of thier next purchase and the casual gamer will tend to ignore any new title that is not established. ME3 did so well initially because it was hyped to everyone everywhere in the months leading up to release. After this game the next big franchise title they have is DA3. DA2 is done, its DLC cut down and abandoned by BW. I would wager that ME3's DLC content will also feel the brunt of this shockwave if BW does not see fit to address these issues beyond clarification and some text epilogue.

For some this is now strike three for BW, the others being DA2 and TOR. The damage has already been done, and casual gamers are not going to flock to a new title from BW the way the hardcore fans would no questions asked. ME and DA both were helped by strong word of mouth from rabid BW fans. I know that I wouldn't have picked up either without it being suggested by a clerk who had been playing BW games since Baldur's gate. My friends would not have picked these same games up had it not been for my constant badgering for them to buy these games.

It's easy to get blinded by numbers when it comes to the sales of ME3, but as I said this is a game that was hyped more than the second coming of Christ. Let them try to release a brand new title from the ground up and see how badly they'll miss the no questions asked pre-order metality of thier hardcore fans.


They dumped a massive DA2 DLC/Expansion content to work on other projects. There's no reason why they won't/can't minimize their DLC plans for ME3, and allocate those resources elsewhere.

Modifié par pikey1969, 31 mars 2012 - 08:02 .


#34
effortname

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They've hardly screwed up twice in a row. They screwed up once, after making a multi-award winning videogame. I don''t know how long you've been a fan, but being one since BG1, I'm perfectly able to put my faith in them fixing this. People forget that BG2 had this exact problem that ME3 is having to a lot of fans, so they made Throne of Baal, which is considered one of the greatest WRPG stories ever written. Most of you need to stop being so pessimistic.


I've been playing Bioware titles since BG2 so let's not pull pedigree. Anyway, the ending of BG2 is in no way as bad. The entire story is focused around Irenicus, concluding with his defeat. All the threads in the game itself are tied, and there is closure for that storyline. Sure, there's a teaser at the very end about the Baalspawn, but it doesn't interfere with the story of BG2 or even BG1 at all. What ME3's ending does is not only negate the previous 2 games, but also the same game it's supposed to conclude.

We're in agreement that DA2 was a screwup, and while ME3 was 98% great, the ending was a giant screwup in it's own right.

#35
pikey1969

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Mad-Hamlet wrote...

Posted Image

If OP starts handing out fish and bread we can call it Sermon on the Mount Part 2.


I wish I could be witty like you.

#36
Sypher_KoS

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pikey1969 wrote...


They dumped a massive DA2 DLC/Expansion content to work on other projects. There's no reason why they won't/can't minimize their DLC plans for ME3, and allocate those resources elsewhere.


Ah, but the reason they dumped it in the first place was because they were not making the kind of sales of the DLC they were expecting.  People wanted to play the DLC for DA:O and people wanted to play the DLC for ME2.  BW/EA was not approaching ME3 with the idea to minimize DLC.  They are expecting to sell more than ever because of not only SP DLC but MP as well.  The quality of the games and support of the hardcore fanbase will determine the demand for post release content.  As of right now there is none for DA2 and I would suspect that the same could be said for ME3 as well.  Only time will tell and of course BW response to all this.

#37
pikey1969

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Sypher_KoS wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...


They dumped a massive DA2 DLC/Expansion content to work on other projects. There's no reason why they won't/can't minimize their DLC plans for ME3, and allocate those resources elsewhere.


Ah, but the reason they dumped it in the first place was because they were not making the kind of sales of the DLC they were expecting.  People wanted to play the DLC for DA:O and people wanted to play the DLC for ME2.  BW/EA was not approaching ME3 with the idea to minimize DLC.  They are expecting to sell more than ever because of not only SP DLC but MP as well.  The quality of the games and support of the hardcore fanbase will determine the demand for post release content.  As of right now there is none for DA2 and I would suspect that the same could be said for ME3 as well.  Only time will tell and of course BW response to all this.


Good point, but wouldn't it simply make more sense to ditch whatever plans they had for ME3 at this point and move on to something else?

#38
Mavaras

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pikey1969 wrote...
I wish I could be witty like you.


You gotta admit, the sermon on the mount bit was kind of funny.

You raise many valid points though. It is more likely that this incident will impact future projects more than ME3.

Modifié par Mavaras, 31 mars 2012 - 08:20 .


#39
Iconoclaste

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If they do ditch any plans they had for ME3, at least they should open the series to modding.

#40
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pikey1969 wrote...

Sypher_KoS wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...


They dumped a massive DA2 DLC/Expansion content to work on other projects. There's no reason why they won't/can't minimize their DLC plans for ME3, and allocate those resources elsewhere.


Ah, but the reason they dumped it in the first place was because they were not making the kind of sales of the DLC they were expecting.  People wanted to play the DLC for DA:O and people wanted to play the DLC for ME2.  BW/EA was not approaching ME3 with the idea to minimize DLC.  They are expecting to sell more than ever because of not only SP DLC but MP as well.  The quality of the games and support of the hardcore fanbase will determine the demand for post release content.  As of right now there is none for DA2 and I would suspect that the same could be said for ME3 as well.  Only time will tell and of course BW response to all this.


Good point, but wouldn't it simply make more sense to ditch whatever plans they had for ME3 at this point and move on to something else?


Not going to happen, because that means they will have no extra revenue untill the next game is released. Which probably will be a couple of years. There is no chance in hell theyre not going to make DLCs for ME3, im willing to bet that DLC sales already are put into a budget for the game.

#41
Mavaras

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Iconoclaste wrote...

If they do ditch any plans they had for ME3, at least they should open the series to modding.


I agree. They need to opensource a modding kit.

#42
pikey1969

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Mavaras wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...
I wish I could be witty like you.


You gotta admit, the sermon on the mount bit was kind of funny.

You raise many valid points though. It is more likely that this incident will impact future projects more than ME3.


I really hope it does, and in a good way. I would hate to see this pattern continue for their future projects. Bioware does some fantastic work, and some of the things they pull off in games are breaking new grounds, at least for mainstream games anyway. I'd hate to see a developer like this falter in the AAA market.

I think I remember seeing a post somewhere in the DA2/3 forums about a Bioware developer discussing how the production on the ending is usually the last thing they tend to tackle and also tend to get the brunt of the budget-cuts and crunch-time related consolidations. They also mentioned that they are aware of that issue and dont really need reminding from fans how counter-productive that can be.

Well they certainly got their reminder with ME3. I hope they find a way to NOT do that anymore, or at least fix the problem.

#43
MrHibachi

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I don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems to me that they were already 'moving on to other projects' before they ever even made ME3 being as how they moved their main writer for the series on to their next big project - their Star Wars MMO. If he was their best writer (which seems to be the case given the track record) they were already moving on to their next biggest game...way more money in MMO's anyway right?

#44
devSin

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Sypher_KoS wrote...

Ah, but the reason they dumped it in the first place was because they were not making the kind of sales of the DLC they were expecting.

David Gaider has said this is false. The DA2 DLC performed just fine.

The decision was made for other reasons, which meant refocusing the entire team.

Whatever led to them shifting away from further DA2 support, it was not lack of sales or potential.

#45
mohdhm

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pikey1969 wrote...

Bioware has been pretty clear to me so far. They're obviously taken back and disheartened by the level of fan response/movements (unprecedented in all of gaming history), but they're mostly definitely going to be sticking to their guns on this. 'Clarifications' will most likely be offered as somewhat of a consolation (most likely to be announced at Pax in one form or the other). At least that much, the Retake movement has earned and it's the most realistic solution that Bioware can offer. It will not appease the most hardcore fans, but the fans will grow tired, will become divided over how 'acceptable' the solution is, the numbers would be diminish regardless at this point anyway (a whole month it will have been since launch). I can kind of sympathize with Bioware on that resolution (as disappointed as I was with the quality of the endings, the games were still great), and I can definitely accept that as a gesture of good will and as a promise that they will defintely pay a LOT more attention to how they conclude their games.

Ultimately, I just can't see, more importantly Bioware can't possibly think they'd losing as many fans, at least not enough for them to do a 180 on the issue. Aside from a professional poll being commissioned and some how providing STRONG GAMECHANGING evidence to indicate otherwise. While the whole '60k disgruntled fans vs millions of sales' arguement doesn't hold to work against the fan's opinions, the BSN polls/outcries can just as easily fall apart if you start getting into reliable/realistic statistics.

Basically, there will likely be a bit of an exodus of the 'hardcore' base for any future support/purchases, but enough of the fans will stick around. That said, even if many of the long-time/hardcore fans are lost, new fans can be gained. Also, sure the endings were botched, but the quality of the 100s of hours of content prior to that indicate that Bioware is still capable of producing quality content. And there will be people willing to give Bioware another chance on that basis, not to mention they'll continue to get great reviews because well... aside from the endings the games themselves are more or less perfectly fine, amazing even, and nevermind that the reviews have a very big sway on how well a game will sell, especially combined with the kind of marketing power/dollars that EA offers, and those will not stop coming Bioware's way.

Many of the Bioware fans here in the Retake movement will become the 'former-Bullfrog/NWN fans' of today, citing too familiar tales of caution of 'how awesome company X used to be but went downhill cause of *insert whatever here*. You see people like that all the time, I am sure many of you, yourselves, have just ignored them in the past as overtly-disgruntled fans. If someone came up to you before you saw the ME3 endings and said "Bioware's been going downhill since selling Neverwinter Nights series and ending it hte way they did" would you have seriously contemplated not touching ME3? I wouldn't have. Did you listen to the angry DA fans over the DA2 endings prior to ME3's release? I didn't, it's also obvious many of you didn't either (btw, DA2 endings worked more or less fine imo).

I know many of you are really holding on to the hope here, but really if you remove the emotional attatchment, this is the only course of outcome that is in line with everything Bioware/EA has done and said so far.

Hold the line, hold on to your hopes, but it's also about time you seriously think about where this is going, and what you'll do about it.

Personally, I don't expect Bioware to do much about ME3, but I WILL be carefully watching to see how they handle thier future games. They do fantastic work, it's just they obviously have limitations on endings (whether due to time/budget constraints or just the way they do things).

I will be carefully watching to see if this lesson sticks for Bioware.


I agree with you too, and your line of reasoning. Many of the hardcore fans didn't believe the current endings were real based on the pre-release leaks. It is complete and utter denial on their part and i promised them that i would feed on their tears (and i have). It sort of disgusts me how people are blindly optimistic, oh well. I bought the game anyway on the pretense that if 99% of it is awesome, i can overlook the crappy ending... but i can't! It is just THAT BAD.

Right now, the hardcore fans believe bioware will fix it. hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahaaaaaaaaaahahahahahah. What is even worse is that some came up with this "theory" that revolves around biowares bad writing (@the ending), and they believe it wholeheartedly. Again, i'm going to come back and feast on their tears when their stupid theory is disproven.

Best thing any person can do to make himself heard is boycott the company and move on with their life. If a company blatantly lied to me about the game like the extent that bioware had, i would boycott all their future products regardless of how good they are. Blatant lies like that just show that the companies integrity is going down the toilet, and that reflects on the entire company not just the ME Team. If you are a gamer like me, you've probably seen companies rise to the peak of their popularity, and fall. This should not have been a surprize, you should have sensed it.

Talk with your wallet, don't invest your (hopefully precious) time on a lost cause.

Modifié par mohdhm, 31 mars 2012 - 08:35 .


#46
Nathan_41

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Sohlito wrote...

There are even "casual" fans that dislike the ending. So it isn't as clear-cut as "hardcore" vs. "casual", "new" vs "old".

Also, DA2 wasn't the end of that franchise. While this is not the end of the Mass Effect franchise, it was the final, closing chapter in Shepard's story. This was not the way to handle an ending that even Bioware devs knew was highly anticipated.

And to address one more thing, those that say we're getting our "fix" are mistaken. There is no fix, there has been no mention of a fix, it's "clarification". Which, if I may say as a matter of personal opinion, is quite condescending in it's own right.


I'll agree with this 100%.

The Hardcore fans are the ones that are most vocal about the issue, but for all the fans who speak out against it, there are others who were irritated with it and simply moved on to greener pastures. Real life isn't a a matter of taking the total number of sales and then deducting the number of fans who happened to find the poll in question.

While I had my issues with DA2, it was just one chapter in an ongoing saga that is still trying to find its feet. And besides, I have to say that in principle it was good to see Bioware trying out some new things. It wasn't ultimately recieved very well (at least comparatively), but I can't condemn them for trying to experiment.

And I also have to second the fact that 'clarification' is an almost insulting term to use. I know Dr Muzyka was wrapped up in PR speak because he was terrified of us disecting every word he said, and for good reason, but most people's problems aren't a result of them not understanding what was happening (unless they're going to reveal that the Indoc. theory is actually true, in which case I'll love them forever).
The endings at present can be summed up as "Your choices are meaningless". An ending that is changed to "Your choices are meaningless and this is why" will do nothing whatsoever for my own complaints, and I would think for many others as well.

Modifié par Nathan_41, 31 mars 2012 - 08:29 .


#47
Wowlock

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If this is their plan for the ''future''... I won't be a part of it and I can easily say that Future will ''suck''.....
It is already a rare accomplishment to see actualy quality in the games today which won't last more than 6-7 hours.....

Trying to earn more with less effort has become the new trend and I feel sad for our ''standarts'' as a recycled FPS ( ahem COD ) can be a top seller.... I feel sad because this puts the bar and says to developers '' These people will buy anything with that Logo on it ! Lets milk them ! ''....

It is a sad thing to see this and I don't want to be a part of it and I won't even bother to reply to those who support customers ( and themselves) getting ripped off by the ALL-Mighty companies.

They need to get their act together or accept the fact that they will just become another nameless company under EA's foot.

You know the old saying,
''Fool me once , shame on you ( DA2 ) . Fool me twice , Shame on me ( ME3 ending ) ''
There won't be a third time for them to mess up if they want to keep their rep and name as a ''fan-favorite''. Depending on how they handle the ending situation and probably the future DLCs ( instead of them being Multiplayer Milking packs ) they will get a 3rd chance to do it right or they will throw the towel and say '' Well this is our standart quality now. Expect more mess ups like this in the future ! '' ..then they already lost to us .

I am hopeful that they MIGHT salvage things because 1- ) I want to have good memories for ME and not that Awful ending as my lasting image . 2- ) Bioware always provided the games I liked to play where what I did actually mattered but they seemed to getting pulled to the Bleak Abyss of mainstream ''milking'' gaming......I don't want them to get lost as a nameless company.

But if you expect people to blindly sit back and watch as they get screwed over and over....well I would question your logic. Just like I did with the God-Child.

Modifié par Wowlock, 31 mars 2012 - 08:30 .


#48
Iconoclaste

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Mavaras wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If they do ditch any plans they had for ME3, at least they should open the series to modding.


I agree. They need to opensource a modding kit.

It would be a sure way to please and retain some of the "hardcore" fanbase, and I'm sure they would work wonders. That's a way to leave it on a positive note. And the developers might even gain new ideas from modders in the process, to implement in future titles. Better than criticism, modders DO bring fresh air...

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 31 mars 2012 - 08:31 .


#49
mohdhm

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pikey1969 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Xandax wrote...

Over the last couple of years it's been pretty clear that Bioware wants to expand it's customer base away from the 'hardcore' fans into the more casual fans.

.


Doesnt Bioware know that if they stick to there hardcore fanbase that the casual fans will follow?


Bioware, well more importantly EA, also understands that is not always the way it needs to work.

Plus, you can always find new hardcore fans.


yeah the new hardcore fans will be minimal in numbers. Lets remember that CNC4 had "hardcore fans" that "loved" the game, and after a few months there were so few people on multiplayer that the game was unplayable, lol.

#50
Nathan_41

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Iconoclaste wrote...

Mavaras wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

If they do ditch any plans they had for ME3, at least they should open the series to modding.


I agree. They need to opensource a modding kit.

It would be a sure way to please and retain some of the "hardcore" fanbase, and I'm sure it would work wonders. That's a way to leave it on a positive note.


Not so sure. Without access to the voice actors and so forth, you might as well sit in the corner and just imagine a better ending. Or at least, that's how I see it.