191 réponses à ce sujet

[pikey1969]

Madecologist wrote...

Oh look, Bioware doesn't need its loyal fans. It doesn't need to market itself for what it gained a brand name for. Clearly Bioware will thrive in the saturated market of other shooters and action game developers. Clearly the Bioware team will be able to steal the fans from Halo, CoD, and GoW with its superior game design skills. The competition will never stand a chance as it will crush them all. Forgoeing the few angry fans to gain millions of new customers.

By the way, your sarcasm radar should have exploded from that comment. Seriously, it is never good idea to completely burn the bridge with your 'traditional' fan base. Also when it comes to action games and shooters, you might have more players but it is also a saturated market with developers that have lived in that market for a long time. It is not that easy to take a piece of that pie.

There is nothing wrong with branching out, but discarding your roots leads to a very dead tree quick.

They're not burning the bridge completely at all. The consolidation fixes to the ending for 'clarification' will more than offer enough sign of 'good faith' to plenty of people that are either A. tired of the movement, or B. never really felt that strong about needing a completely new and/or additional endings in the first place.

[DVZ]

pikey1969 wrote...

It's far more feasible/realistic/more-likely for Bioware to simply ride this out, and just be sure to nail the endings on the next big project they do, than it would be to try and navigate the s**t storm that htis current situation has morphed into. That's basically the jist of it.

And really? Disqualifying disagreeable opinions simply as being that of a 'none-true fan' is the fastest way to becoming the negative stereotype that much of the media has been trying to paint you as this whole time.

More likely if we all give up and quit now, sure.

The media can bite me. The almost universal praise for ME: 3 with complete disregard for the ****** poor ending makes me think they: a) didn't complete the game, received incentives from Bioware (Jessica Chobot, staff writer for one of the world's most prominent games review sites, as a voice "talent" - really?), or, c) both. If they actually paid attention to the travesty unfolding on their computer monitor, or weren't being rewarded in exchange for a good score, then the general feedback would have been closer to: "Mass Effect 3 is a bag of turd." Because the ending completely ruins the game. Oh yes. It does.

HOLD THE LINE!

[Talogrungi]

It'll come down to money in the end; anyone can see that.

The question is; will it cost Bioware more money (returns, lost DLC sales, brand loyalty, industry perception,etc) to leave the endings stand than it would cost them to create proper ones?

If so, they'll address the endings.

If not, they'll hide behind artistic integrity, give us a half-assed "resolution" to the problem, claim benevolence in doing so ("Because we didn't HAVE to listen to the fans criticisms") and just PR gloss over the whole thing.

Either way, the Retake movement will have had a positive effect; Even if they ultimately decide to just let this blow over, we've highlighted to them that half-assing things their fanbase cares about will cost them money.

That's a damn good accomplishment imo.

[Vhalkyrie]

This same situation happened with DA2. They cancelled the expansion pack development due to lack of interest. Saying this backlash won't hurt them is a gamble.

[Sohlito]

pikey1969 wrote...

I know I am making an assumption here that Bioware's 'response in the works' will be no more than a clarification patch/dlc. I am also seeing a very critical assumption here that is saying nothing but a 'new/alternative/additional' endings will do.

"They're ignoring customers, bad for business"

Anyone can definitely see that the 'majority' of the core fans are not content with the ending. And it's also clear sizeable chunk will not be happy with the 'clarification' patch/dlc that has been alluded to so far.

But which customers will Bioware be kissing farewell to? and how many of them are there?

How many of the fans would be willing to completely forsake Bioware even after the 'clarification' patch/dlc is announced (all but certain to happen at PAX)?

How many would hold onto the rage/grievances they're feeling now over not getting alternate/new ME3 endings for the next however many months until their next big release?

Not as many as we'd think/hope, at least not enough for Bioware to completely turn around their statements regarding how THEY feel about their work so far and their commitment to stand by it.

Enough. The simple truth of it is that profit loss, is still profit loss. And word of mouth can be a great motivator to furthering that profit loss. Which is something no developer/publisher enjoys seeing.

I'll grant you that there will always remain the possibility that they'll make up the loss in time, but their reputation has also taken a hit, and not just because of this game's botched ending.

Again, as a matter of personal opinion, I'd even dare to say they're riding a slippery slope to Capcom town.

[Kalas82]

The hardcore fans are those who still hang around and hope the franchise comes to live again.
The casual fans left the building as the ending melt their brains and won`t enter it till the hardcore fans tell them it`s safe to stay.
That`s my view of the situation atleast..judging form the people i know.
Hardcore-fans will still be there even if you f***k up once, someone who isn`t a fan will look for the next game if you f***ked up.
Hardcore fans are the main target audience for DLC, which is a moneymakin-generator today, while i`ve never seen a "casual"-gamer who bought DLC more than once.

So even if they are just here for the money (which i don`t blame a company for) they will very likely know how this generations marketing and PR works. Pssst little hint for free -> look at Capcom and do everything they do just the other way around.

[Delta_S]

 If the customer isn't satisfied, then the customer has every right to take his business elsewhere.  If I don't find their "clarification" satisfactory, I will do that.  And I will definitely stay the hell away from anything with an EA logo on the box in the future.

[pikey1969]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

This same situation happened with DA2. They cancelled the expansion pack development due to lack of interest. Saying this backlash won't hurt them is a gamble.

Is it worth dealing with YET another PR storm just so they can sell more DLC? Nevermind the more important fact that the development team themselves CLEARLY are not enthused or interested in tackling such a project? Do you REALLY think the ending they were forced to make out of circumstance would turn out to be a quality ending that the Retake movement has been 'fighting' for?

Cancelling the expansion pack might have meant loss in potential profits from the DLC for DA2, but all Bioware had to do instead was reallocate that team back to DA3, it's hardly an example of 'death/downfall of Bioware' that everyone is claiming not doing a new ending will result in. If anything, it could very well be signs of Bioware putting more manpower/time into DA3 instead, and trying to avoid yet another scenerio of rushed/half-baked ending.

[Madecologist]

pikey1969 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Oh look, Bioware doesn't need its loyal fans. It doesn't need to market itself for what it gained a brand name for. Clearly Bioware will thrive in the saturated market of other shooters and action game developers. Clearly the Bioware team will be able to steal the fans from Halo, CoD, and GoW with its superior game design skills. The competition will never stand a chance as it will crush them all. Forgoeing the few angry fans to gain millions of new customers.

By the way, your sarcasm radar should have exploded from that comment. Seriously, it is never good idea to completely burn the bridge with your 'traditional' fan base. Also when it comes to action games and shooters, you might have more players but it is also a saturated market with developers that have lived in that market for a long time. It is not that easy to take a piece of that pie.

There is nothing wrong with branching out, but discarding your roots leads to a very dead tree quick.

They're not burning the bridge completely at all. The consolidation fixes to the ending for 'clarification' will more than offer enough sign of 'good faith' to plenty of people that are either A. tired of the movement, or B. never really felt that strong about needing a completely new and/or additional endings in the first place.

Not saying they will, just warning against it.

I am not part of the Retake movement. I am part of the pointing my finger at the endings and saying it is bad (and badly writen) and metaphorically wishing I can scold Bioware for it. I do want consequences, but a la traditional free market style. People who are really upset about all this should vote with their wallet, while Bioware does what is smart; what ever it may be. I am not a game developer nor am I employed by them so I won't tell them what they should do.

However I can cautiously advice that they need to be careful. Which judging from what I saw, they are... maybe a little too cautious but it is better than nothing. That said I sympathise with the Retake Movement, after all they are a manifestation of a consequence for the endings (I take them where i can get them).

Modifié par Madecologist, 31 mars 2012 - 01:32 .

[ImmovableMover]

I don't expect all 50,000 retakers to suddenly stop playing bioware, but lets run a hypothetical at "Half" of them.

25,000 x $60 = $1.5 million but I imagine the publisher/developers only take half of that so $750,000~ would be lost in prospective business, per game.

And that's half of the most hardcore group, arguably the smallest group and that number could easily be higher.

Pleasing the retake people is probably more important than you would think - They're semi-organized, they've already put money where their mouth is (donating $80,000 to charity) and they're VERY serious about it. If all the retakers didn't buy Biowares next game AND trash talked bioware they would very easily cost EA/Bioware millions of dollars.

If Bioware stick to their guns, I hope the retakers stick to theirs

But of course it won't come to that, because it's about art, right? and delivering great content? Not money. Not at all.

Modifié par ImmovableMover, 31 mars 2012 - 01:27 .

[Aurica]

Baronesa wrote...

Well, for what is worth...

I was in a position on which I could say to friends "If it is Bioware, just get it..."

A friend took the advice and finally got ME and ME2... loved them... then got ME3... now don't want to touch anything labeled Bioware... not even the old games.


Now I'm not even sure I could buy future games from Bioware...   Maybe after waiting for the discount bin?.

But I'll no longer buy their products on launch day. IF they make something good, I may wait a couple of years till  prices drop. Hopefully back on Steam... really hope Origin fails

This sounds familiar except I was the friend who was convinced to try ME.

I never bought ME from the getgo in 2007.  I used to think it was some silly overhyped game and never paid any attention to it.  It wasn't until 2010 that my friends told me how awesome the game was and asked if I had played it  Their recommendations piqued my curiosity and I picked up ME & ME2.   Few months later, I completed both games, had several playthroughs and eventually bought alot of DLCs.

To be honest, I never even once watched any of their Marketing Vids on Youtube before I made the purchase.  So clearly in this case, it was word of mouth that turned me from a casual to a fan.   Now with DA2, SWTOR and ME3 endings... I'm not sure if I can in good faith recommend this game to my friends.  And my friends who played ME3 are all telling me how bad it sucks.

Modifié par Aurica, 31 mars 2012 - 01:28 .

[StartOrange]

I can honestly say that this is the last time I will EVER pre-order a Bioware title. From now on, I will keep all my expectations strictly in check before buying any new title of theirs, and even then I will probably lend a copy from a friend and try it before buying.

Can't speak for other people, but they will definitely make less money from me after this. Hopefully more will do the same and maybe in the future Bioware will quit outright lying in the face of their customers.

[Quietness]

You do realize its your hardcore fans that buy all the extra stuff that really brings home the money? Art,books,comics,shirts,jackets,movies,etc etc etc etc. Its that fan base that sticks with you, that is a free advertising goldmine, and continues to throw money at you for more stuff.

Also this random 50k number has to go, its flawed logic, and if you care to use that logic than obviously the only people who like the game's ending is on the facebook group supporting it (last tally under 700 strong)

[Dark Specie]

The hardcore/regular fans (usually) clings to Bioware, sing their praises, spreads the word of their games for free, buy all their stuff and so forth.

The casual fans are more fickle, IMO. But we'll see whether pissing off the hardcore/regular fans will really harm Bioware in the long run. It's a bit too early to say now. Give it until they've released some ME3 DLC and maybe even DA3 and we'll see...

[ImmovableMover]

Quietness wrote...

Also this random 50k number has to go, its flawed logic, and if you care to use that logic than obviously the only people who like the game's ending is on the facebook group supporting it (last tally under 700 strong)

It's not flawed logic, It's not even a matter of logic. Nobody is saying "There are only 50,000 people who don't like the endings and they're all on facebook" so, no, it's not like saying that at all.

But the Retake page, demonstrably, has 50,000+ members on facebook (58,056 to be exact at time of writing) and that page isn't a simple "'Like' if you want a different ending for ME3" thing and you're not going to just stumble on it, you've got to be either linked to the Bioware forums or visit Game websites (like IGN) to even be aware of it.

So anyone who has liked that page is likely fairly serious about it, they're certainly not some super casual gamer who is just going to go "Well that ending didn't make sense" and move on without giving it a second thought.

But no, You're right, it's not an accurate number - But its a fairly good number to work from. Honestly it is almost demonstrably true that MORE than 50,000 people did not like the endings, and as numbers go, using the "Retake mass effect 3 endings" activism page on Facebook is about as accurate as we can get for numbers on the "Core fans"

Modifié par ImmovableMover, 31 mars 2012 - 01:40 .

[Shared]

Quietness wrote...

You do realize its your hardcore fans that buy all the extra stuff that really brings home the money? Art,books,comics,shirts,jackets,movies,etc etc etc etc. Its that fan base that sticks with you, that is a free advertising goldmine, and continues to throw money at you for more stuff.

Also this random 50k number has to go, its flawed logic, and if you care to use that logic than obviously the only people who like the game's ending is on the facebook group supporting it (last tally under 700 strong)

Offcourse the numbers are wrong. The polls on FB, BSN etc which cater to english speaking fans have about 70-100 000 votes/people. In germany we have 3 polls on german sites, with 30-40 000. In france the same. Even in my country "tiny Norway" there are several thousand ppl that dislike the ending with a passion. Theres also been australian polls. Even with extreemly conservative calculus there are at least 2-250 000 ppl that hate/dislike the ending enough to vote that they dont like it.

Tbh, i dont give a crap what bioware thinks about its "hardcore fans" what i do know is that one hardcore fan, is worth 10 casual fans in revenue. If they want to go bankrupt. Then they can go the **** ahead and do so.

The best part about all of this is we have a shining freaking example of what happens to you if you A) dont give a crap about you "hardcore fans", and try to cater to the casuals. Westwood, my favourite game maker for my first 5-10 years as a gamer. It went to ****!

[Quietness]

ImmovableMover wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Also this random 50k number has to go, its flawed logic, and if you care to use that logic than obviously the only people who like the game's ending is on the facebook group supporting it (last tally under 700 strong)

It's not flawed logic, It's not even a matter of logic. Nobody is saying "There are only 50,000 people who don't like the endings and they're all on facebook" so, no, it's not like saying that at all.

But the Retake page, demonstrably, has 50,000+ members on facebook (58,056 to be exact at time of writing) and that page isn't a simple "'Like' if you want a different ending for ME3" thing and you're not going to just stumble on it, you've got to be either linked to the Bioware forums or visit Game websites (like IGN) to even be aware of it.

So anyone who has liked that page is likely fairly serious about it, they're certainly not some super casual gamer who is just going to go "Well that ending didn't make sense" and move on without giving it a second thought.

But no, You're right, it's not an accurate number - But its a fairly good number to work from. Honestly it is almost demonstrably true that MORE than 50,000 people did not like the endings, and as numbers go, using the "Retake mass effect 3 endings" activism page on Facebook is about as accurate as we can get for numbers on the "Core fans"

https://www.facebook...44005192318904/  is all i have to say its flawed logic because everyone is stating that ONLY those people hate the ending ^^ 

[poundoffleshaa]

 I imagine the most they will lose is their hardcore roleplaying game fans who as far as I can tell Bioware already stopped catering for since ME2, so I doubt it will be a major loss to them or for the RPG fans (given there are companies like CD Red who now pretty exclusivly cater for that crowd anyway).  So I imagine its just means Bioware's future will be in actions games (with rp elements) rather than RPG's. 

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 31 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[ImmovableMover]

Quietness wrote...

https://www.facebook...44005192318904/  is all i have to say its flawed logic because everyone is stating that ONLY those people hate the ending ^^ 

Where? I haven't read through this thread.

[Aesieru]

Don't forget that about 8% of the fanbase actually becomes vocal, but they are a representation for the greater whole.

pikey1969 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Oh look, Bioware doesn't need its loyal fans. It doesn't need to market itself for what it gained a brand name for. Clearly Bioware will thrive in the saturated market of other shooters and action game developers. Clearly the Bioware team will be able to steal the fans from Halo, CoD, and GoW with its superior game design skills. The competition will never stand a chance as it will crush them all. Forgoeing the few angry fans to gain millions of new customers.

By the way, your sarcasm radar should have exploded from that comment. Seriously, it is never good idea to completely burn the bridge with your 'traditional' fan base. Also when it comes to action games and shooters, you might have more players but it is also a saturated market with developers that have lived in that market for a long time. It is not that easy to take a piece of that pie.

There is nothing wrong with branching out, but discarding your roots leads to a very dead tree quick.

They're not burning the bridge completely at all. The consolidation fixes to the ending for 'clarification' will more than offer enough sign of 'good faith' to plenty of people that are either A. tired of the movement, or B. never really felt that strong about needing a completely new and/or additional endings in the first place.

 

And outside of those NOT in the movement, who are those exactly?

• Because the assets are screwed up and replaced by generic forces.
• The continuity is thrown out the window.
• Your choices DO NOT matter at any point because they all result in the same thing.
• Your relations, alliances, and camaraderie that was built were meaningless.
• Your technology and other such things that was researched is MEANINGLESS.
• The end reveals over 30+ plotholes throughout the entirety of the game, BIG PLOTHOLES.
• To "clarify" outside of narrative coherence would be illogical and impossible.

---

The truth is, the final mission needs to be revamped, new cinematics need to be designed, and while they won't fix the game to make all the promises they said be factual, they can at least fix the final mission the scenes after it, and the result of it.

Modifié par Aesieru, 31 mars 2012 - 01:50 .

[Luzarius]

Bioware should never cater to those who skip dialogue and don't read codex.

This "retake ME3" crowd should be thankful bioware gave them action mode and leave it at that.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

[weltraumhamster89]

tenojitsu wrote...

For me, aside from the ending, there are other reasons why I may no longer turn to BioWare with my dollars. The requirement of multiplayer being mandatory for maximize the single player experience, to me, is unethical. I'm not here to debate why or if it is or isnt, but its my opinion. The biggest reason, however, is the reduction of RPG elements throughout the progression of the series. I got interested in ME1 because it was an RPG, period. ME2 came along and I saw the reduction of weapon/armor choice, the removal of random planet exploring mission, and other streamlining attempts, but I was still satisfied as an RPG lover. ME3 comes along, and low and behold it is barely an RPG anymore. The conversations that I used to know and love are gone, replaced by interactions with squadmates that dont even illicit a reaction from the companion I am talking to. Seriously, is it took much to at least face in my direction when we speak? I again all side missions by an intrusive radio transmission from Hackett or by eavesdropping on the Citadel? Eavesdropping? Really? I would like to earn at least a few of my side missions by having to poke around a bit to discover them, not have them just thrown at me. Oh yeah, and the ending...

Dont understand me wrong, ME3 (aside from the ending) is still a fun game. However, if the current trend towards mass appeal keeps ripping more and more RPG elements from the series, which I think will happen for the next game in the series, I dont see why even bother. I love my Shepard and it was a terrific ride, but unless BioWare remembers what got them to where they are, and fast, I see no reason to go back to the ME universe.

I hope I'm wrong about the future ME games though.

Agreed on every single line. But I guess you are not wrong about future ME or BW games, I'm afraid

[Aesieru]

Luzarius wrote...

Bioware should never cater to those who skip dialogue and don't read codex.

This "retake ME3" crowd should be thankful bioware gave them action mode and leave it at that.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

The Retake crowd are the people who never skipped anything and can describe every plothole.

Hell I know the entirety of the lore, codex, and technological concepts within Mass Effect, as well as the books and comics by heart and can explain it all to you.

Modifié par Aesieru, 31 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[ImmovableMover]

Luzarius wrote...

Bioware should never cater to those who skip dialogue and don't read codex.

This "retake ME3" crowd should be thankful bioware gave them action mode and leave it at that.

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Still not figured out how signatures work?

Also, That has got to be the worst troll I've ever seen. I'm almost embarassed for you.