191 réponses à ce sujet

[pikey1969]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

I love how you keep editing the title and post to make it more offensive/inciteful then it already is.

I can see it being disagreeable, but offensive?

[tenojitsu]

revo76 wrote...

New fans can be gained, you're correct. So if BW gain mostly old FIFA fans, this means we'll have FIFA Effect game right ? Or if they attract COD fans, we suppose to have Call of Effect game ?

If they want to turn ME series to Super Mario, be my guest. RPG is a unique type of gameplay and fans of these games are very hard to earn. A core RPG fans is worth more than COD-FIFA-BF3 fan.

I kinda agree with this. I dont see how morphing ME into a different type of game is going to produce a net gain in sales. They are just swapping one fanbase for another. Also, 99% of the people on my XBL friends list that never played any ME game, still didnt get ME3. It still has the smell of an RPG game which keeps them away. So rather than a significant increase in their fanbase, they lose the hardcore RPG fans and gain the new people who were on the fence.

Final Fantasy XIII is the best example I can use. Please, lets not discuss FFXXIII in this thread, I'm just using this an as example. They took the main RPG mechanics out of the game, and its the first of all the FF games I have not completed. FFXIII-2 is the first FF game that I have no desire to purchase, or even play if the game was given to me for free. Again, an extremely small percentage of friends who werent into FF prior to XIII picked it up, and they aliented many to the point they dont want to play anymore, so there is no real net gain in the fanbase? So what's the point? All they end up with is a game with with no real identity.

Next I'm sure I'll see a Legend of Zelda game with no supplemental equipment, or  Mario game without jumping. After that, I guess I'll take up chess.

Sorry for the mini-rant

[ZiegenkonigIII]

pikey1969 wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

I love how you keep editing the title and post to make it more offensive/inciteful then it already is.

I can see it being disagreeable, but offensive?

Maybe not offensive, seems like your trying to be inciteful however.

Example, changing the title to point out Retake specifically.

[Loreshield]

I am an eternal pessimist (you know what they say, a pessimist will always either be proven right or be pleasantly surprised).

But still, I have hope.

Inb4 hold the line and all that crap, I mean, have we gotten tired of that yet, seriously, omg, I think I-

SCREW THAT!

HOLD THE EFFIN' LINE!!1!one!eins

[tenojitsu]

Loreshield wrote...

I am an eternal pessimist (you know what they say, a pessimist will always either be proven right or be pleasantly surprised).

But still, I have hope.

Inb4 hold the line and all that crap, I mean, have we gotten tired of that yet, seriously, omg, I think I-

SCREW THAT!

HOLD THE EFFIN' LINE!!1!one!eins

To be honest, I am tired of "holding the line." However, like going to work, it must be done and I will continue to do so.

[ZiegenkonigIII]

Loreshield wrote...

I am an eternal pessimist (you know what they say, a pessimist will always either be proven right or be pleasantly surprised).

But still, I have hope.

Inb4 hold the line and all that crap, I mean, have we gotten tired of that yet, seriously, omg, I think I-

SCREW THAT!

HOLD THE EFFIN' LINE!!1!one!eins

Is that avatar EDI's body before the exterior got burned off? (forgot original body's name)

[granyte]

EA's stock dropped from 21 to 16 in the last 3 month and still falling

they are killingt hier IP the way they work it can't be profitable

[Tovanus]

Complaints about the DA 2 endings were minimal. The idea that that even holds a candle to this is delusional. Now, complaints about DA 2's gameplay? Those were big. But then again, DA 2 having bad gameplay didn't make people feel like it invalidated DA: O.

Think of the show Lost. Did Lost have really compelling writing through most of the series? Yeah. Did it have a few episodes that just completely missed the mark in the middle and made people bored? Yes, that happened too. Some people left. Many stayed with it. (Much like DA 2, which is merely a "middle game" of that series, where many stuck with Bioware believing feedback would be taken into account for future Bioware games.).

But at the end of Lost? Great dispappointment. Any new series "brought to you by the creators of Lost" these days doesn't have anywhere near the following that they could get for Lost, even if the show remains marginally profitable. A huge portion of their former audience does not trust those guys with a new series.

If Bioware is lucky, they keep the people who are already invested in the DA series to keep playing that particular series. But after ME 3, I think they'll find it much harder to attract fans to any new franchise. It's hard to shake off general disrepute for ruining your own flagship series. I'm not one of those who thinks it'll ruin them or make them operate at a loss - they'll still be profitable, but the long-term impact of not fixing an obviously rushed, poorly thought out, plot-hole ridden ending and ignoring their fans request will mean that a huge amount of potential profit will disperse to other companies for other games in the future.

[DESTRAUDO]

Great topic with a realistic outlook on events. Bioware /EA wont be spending 6- 7 figures redoing the last section of the game.

Modifié par DESTRAUDO, 01 avril 2012 - 09:45 .

[Yubz]

Tovanus wrote...

Think of the show Lost. Did Lost have really compelling writing through most of the series? Yeah. Did it have a few episodes that just completely missed the mark in the middle and made people bored? Yes, that happened too. Some people left. Many stayed with it. (Much like DA 2, which is merely a "middle game" of that series, where many stuck with Bioware believing feedback would be taken into account for future Bioware games.).

But at the end of Lost? Great dispappointment. Any new series "brought to you by the creators of Lost" these days doesn't have anywhere near the following that they could get for Lost, even if the show remains marginally profitable. A huge portion of their former audience does not trust those guys with a new series.

The difference with "Lost" is that it was all about mysteries and unexplainable stuff right from the beginning.
I remember during Season 2 that I thought "They can never possibly explain all of this bull****... the writers probably don't even know themselves how all of this is supposed to make any sense in the end".
It didn't have to be that way with Mass Effect though... the whole series was pretty straightforward... there was really no reason to end it with this mystery / spacemagic crap.

[sinatron]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Maybe not offensive, seems like your trying to be inciteful however.

Example, changing the title to point out Retake specifically.

I don't think he meant it to be offensive. I didn't take it that way either.

What is entirely offensive, to my eyes at least, is the bolded and underlined parts throughout the text. Had to copy/paste the OP into notepad just to be able to read it! :<
(Not meant all too seriously, but it was annoying. )

[Hexley UK]

People also forget that its the harcore fans that buy the related merchandise i.e books, comics, figures ect..

I wonder how much revenue they will lose there after this debacle.

Also hardcore fans that feel betrayed are more likely to actively work against Biowares (and EA's) interests in the future.

Modifié par Hexley UK, 31 mars 2012 - 05:29 .

[pikey1969]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

I never said ME3 is attempting to swap bases.

To quote your OP: 

pikey1969 wrote...

That said, even if many of the long-time/hardcore fans are lost, new fans can be gained. 

Okay, you didn't use those exact words, but please, do tell me how that statement was not intended to be conflated with "losing one group of longtime fans to gain another group of fans".  And, if you didn't mean the base when you referred to "long-time/hardcore fans", who did you mean?  And which "new fans" would be gained?

When I said 'long-time' and/or 'hardcore' fans, I was more or less referring to those who have invested themselves to the ME franchise (or even further back) and feel strongly opposed enough to walk away from Bioware products as a result of how Bioware handled this issue as well as the fact that the endings themselves were poorly done. The term 'base' would have been too broad for what I was referring to. Sorry if my choice of words threw you off there.

"New fans" would simply be fans that aren't vested enough in Bioware's products yet, if at all, like the "hardcore" or "long-time" fans to feel 'betrayed' or "pushed to their limits". Basically, future newcomers to the Bioware franchise. These could be fans that just started playing ME as of ME3, or even fans that are introduced via Bioware's future endevours. 

pikey1969 wrote... 

Only reason I cited COD in one of my replies was as an EXAMPLE of decisions/choices that alienate a specific core audience that ultimately doesn't have the same alienating effect on the rest of the audience.

The decision to stick with an unpopular narrative choice in ME3 (in this case the god child and blow-up, control, synthesis as being cannon) that alienated a portion of their core is comparable in significance and magnitudeof COD's choice to change its networking/overall design priorities to something that alienated/pissed of a significant portion of the PC market or their growing emphasis on amplifying accessability and instant gratification of increasingly overpowered streaks over gameplay balance/depth that alienated many hardcore players that spoke out passionately against it.  

All stop.

Please note your own wording: "significant portion of the PC market".  Please pay special attention to "portion of the PC market".  That's a portion of a portion that is not even their main market, and I say this as a huge fan of PC gaming.  This would be akin to if Bioware had put good endings on the PS3 and XBOX, but gave PC users the current magic cupcake ending.  Maybe not even that, we'd have to compare how much of ME3's market was on PC versus console, and then compare that to CoD.  Nevertheless, this is not a sectional issue.  Every player of ME3 got the same nut punch.  Some didn't mind it, obviously many (quite possibly most) did.

Also note in your paragraph: "their growing emphasis on amplifying accessability and instant gratification".  Please note that I argued that CoD's core selling point was it's tight multiplayer and gunplay.   Instant gratification and accessability are NOT in direct conflict with tight multiplayer and gunplay.  Some (again, portions of portions) may have found those changes grating (and were rewarded with changes in the killstreak system in each version, usually with the intent to reduce factors that reduced fun, but these changes were not directly against the core selling point, nor were they severe enough to warrant such backlash.

The appeal for instant graitification (a la throwing layers after layers of streak bonuses, adding blatantly overpowered/exploitable weapons) WERE in conflict with 'tight multiplayer' and gunplay. The competetive scene, and players of that caliber (as well as players that aspire to or follow that level of play) have more or less walked away from COD series, if they haven't many are starting to.


As far as the PC analogy, PC fans/audience are no longer the core audience for COD now, zero question about that. But there WAS very significant amount of lashback even as early as MW1 from the PC fans. They were once the ONLY audience for the COD series. And MW2 was the final slap in the face for them. 

If you choose to continue this discussion on COD, I think we should take it to tells. I think you're under the impression I am trying to draw a direct analogy between the COD's audience (or former) and the ME3 situation here, which I am not really at all.


You have to understand, when I cited COD (which I believe was in response to one of the replies), I was not really trying to draw a direct comparison or an analogy (It would make a terrible analogy), but rather provide an example of how alienating a seemingly significant portion of a 'core audience' can turn out to be not so significant from a game business perspective, at least in the immediate term. Barring Bioware waking up before Pax and suddenly having a massive change of heart and deciding to redo the endings, business perspective is the only other thing that will give the Retake fans what they want, and I don't see it being in the fans favor.

I probably should have added the word 'immediate' there in the title (but I think i've used up my allotment of title changes at this point ;p), but that's the point I was basically shooting for. Bioware 'alienating' the fans that want a complete or a significant ending (not just a 'clarification') is not as detrimental to Bioware as the fans assume it to be.

pikey1969 wrote...  

You may object to my choice of the word 'portion' when describing the fans that would be completely alienated by Bioware's decision to only 'clarify' the ending, but that's really one of my main points in the OP.

I never objected to the word portion.  I objected to the drift of your argument that this was simply another DA2/PC-no-server-browser/core-selling-points-don't-matter, and attempted to *ahem* clarify why your arguement was misguided, as it orginated from a false comparison.

As for the endings themselves: we'll see what "clarify" means within the month.  I'm hopeful, but also doubtful.  I simply disagree on how much this could hurt Bioware.  Even without fixing this ending (which does include ending DLC, or even just a really, really good "clarification"), they may still recover in the long haul, but they'll have to spend a lot more money/time to buy back goodwill they never should have lost.  I know I'll be waiting for user reviews on their products from here out, and I'm sure as heck not buying into a trilogy until I know it doesn't faceplant in the ending act.

"You may object to..." statement was an additonal preemptive one, in case a poster took objection that word, not really a direct response to you. Sorry, habit out of posting on forums where an open discussion can become a bit cluster****.

The way this matter was handled, more importantly the way they made the endings in the first place, has NOT done Bioware any favors. I think we're in agreement of that. And in the long term as well, if Bioware makes a repeat of this kind of situation AGAIN, then we can really condemn Bioware for having no hope, and point to this specific occasion as the turning/revealing point. And I can certainly see truth in that point. However, I do not believe the ending situation is the 'last and final' call for Bioware here, and certainly not as an 'immediate' threat as people seem to make it out to be.

From a business stand point, the way this has become a lose-lose nightmare PR situation, and finally with emphasis on a very important fact that the developers themselves have so far revealed zero interest in completely retconning the current endings (everything indicates to 'clarification' a la expanding upon the way the endings currently exist), the most practical solution would be to cut their loses, and just learn what they can from their mistakes.

[pikey1969]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

pikey1969 wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

I love how you keep editing the title and post to make it more offensive/inciteful then it already is.

I can see it being disagreeable, but offensive?

Maybe not offensive, seems like your trying to be inciteful however.

Example, changing the title to point out Retake specifically.

Because I am specifically referring to people who would be actually walking away from Bioware because they're not getting anything more than a 'clarification'. That's essentially the thesis of the OP.

The actual risk factor for Bioware in not doing anything beyond a 'clarification' dlc is not as bad as many of us would like to believe for the sake of getting them to cough up that 'alternate/new' ending patch/DLC, especially once they make the inevitable announcement of 'clarification' content in April. The size of the 'exodus' will not be significant at all, and even if it is, there are plenty of hope for Bioware to recover from it in the future.

[Tovanus]

Yubz wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

Think of the show Lost. Did Lost have really compelling writing through most of the series? Yeah. Did it have a few episodes that just completely missed the mark in the middle and made people bored? Yes, that happened too. Some people left. Many stayed with it. (Much like DA 2, which is merely a "middle game" of that series, where many stuck with Bioware believing feedback would be taken into account for future Bioware games.).

But at the end of Lost? Great dispappointment. Any new series "brought to you by the creators of Lost" these days doesn't have anywhere near the following that they could get for Lost, even if the show remains marginally profitable. A huge portion of their former audience does not trust those guys with a new series.

The difference with "Lost" is that it was all about mysteries and unexplainable stuff right from the beginning.
I remember during Season 2 that I thought "They can never possibly explain all of this bull****... the writers probably don't even know themselves how all of this is supposed to make any sense in the end".
It didn't have to be that way with Mass Effect though... the whole series was pretty straightforward... there was really no reason to end it with this mystery / spacemagic crap.

Well, Lost was pretty strong on its character development too. I mean, the character-writing on that show is some of the best character writing I've ever seen. And ME 1 did give us a pretty big mystery in wanting to know what the Reapers were and what motivated them really. I think the two had a lot of similarity in that Bioware knew their games were famous for being so focused on story, and they were aware that with a good story there are massive fan expectations for a skillfully written ending. You ever see this interview Bioware gave before ME 3 was released?

http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

The best quote in there:

Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending. BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised.
"You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people."

[TwilightChamp]

Yes, there's money and PR and all this numbers fun about how EA can do this that or the other and make Bioware dance about like a marionette on strings made of capital. But...

Fan comes from the word fanatic.

Having fanatics devoted to your cause is good. They will stick up for you in bad times and help you to glory in good times. (I mean even some IPs of very dubious quality succeed with a strong fan base behind them - won't name names but I'm sure one or two might come to mind for each of us)

Having fanatics who feel betrayed does the opposite. The opposite sounds a lot less fun. (It's harder to think of times that this has happened, because mostly no one talks about those IPs any more except to laugh at them.)

The casuals tend to find things out from the fanatics, mostly because the fanatics tend to talk about the subject of their obsession quite a bit.

[pikey1969]

Just tooting my own horn and predicting the outcome here. Bump