470 réponses à ce sujet

[Foulpancake]

NAWhisperBlade wrote...

What I don't get is why anyone sits down to write such a long post.

Just keep your mouth shut and wait for the official announcements.

agreed, though personally i just got off work and i do customer service so maybe i'm feeling a little confrontational atm... but ya, a college dissertation to say "No you're wrong" ...ya

[XxBrokenBonezxX]

Eviscerator03 wrote...

Shepard hears Reaper voices as he approaches Anderson. This is them trying to indoctrinate him.

Where is the Reaper? If the Citadel itself was capable of indoctrinating people, then this game would have been over before it even started. It’s more likely that this is an audio representation of whatever form of control the Illusive man is exerting on the two (I honestly don’t think it actually sounds like a Reaper either).

I would also like to point out that indoctrination is not direct physical control, which is what we appear to be seeing in this scene.

And if the Reaper is near the beam and Shepard is actually unconscious (as one claimant said) and can exert indoctrination through that, then it invalidates the point of Major Coates withdrawing ground forces. There’s another bloody Reaper there and the force is fresh out of Thanix missiles.

You do realize that Harbinger single handedly controlled the Collectors from DARK SPACE right?

So if Shepard is being controlled, there's two situations here, either 1: Shepard is actually being indoctrinated on the Citadel and he is not dreaing, or 2: He is on Earth hallucinating/being indoctrinated.

If he is on the Citadel, Harbinger could easily indoctrinate Shepard from the distance between the Conduit and the Citadel. Illusive Man could possibly be the amplifier if needed. The codex even says the reaper indoctrination amplifies its signal. So, Harbinger or any reaper for that matter (probably, or at least the dreadnought class ones) should not have any problems getting to Shepard's head.

If he is on Earth, Harbinger is right in front of him. Major Coates pulling out the troops only LENDS to the theory. He specifically says the entire force was decimated. So that leaves the questions: Why does Shepard make it to the beam? How did Anderson make it to the beam? The whole thing could easily be a ruse by Harbinger to make Shepard believe he is in the clear (Harbinger leaving to return back to the battle). If they are looking back to see that the entire force was decimated, they would see Harbinger leaving and say "Hey is that Shepard? Oh well let's just leave anyway." (I won't even touch the differences between the environment before Shepard got hit and after).If Shepard is not being indoctrinated and Harbinger leaves...why retreat? Why leave te bodies of the galaxy's biggest heroes lying in rubble. 

"I would also like to point out that indoctrination is not direct physical control".

What? If has been evidenced many times throughout the series that physical control is a very large part of indoctrination. Let's take Matriarch Benezia for example. When she breaks free of Soverign's control, she says he is too strong. While he is controlling her mentally, she is at least trying to resist. However, the physical implications of indoctrination prove too strong. Anotherbig piece refuting this is the Collector's themselves. Heavy indoctrination leaves the body a mindless shell, which is exactly what the Collector's are. Not to mention the reaper implants they were outfitted with. 
Mental control is a very large part of indoctrination, but discounting the physical control is a very big mistake

I'm no IT theory supporter, but it does raise some serious question about the ending, and it solves alot of the stupid problems that hopefully aren't just bad writing or . 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

I think alot of people pull in more evidence than what would be intended towards the indoctrination theory  (Seriously if i hear people talk about the ****ing pistol one more time...did no one play me1?)

I also think naysayers can be a little hand wavey on the subject.

I think indoctrination is highly likely and the best way forward.

[dreman9999]

Tov01 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Since so many seem unwilling to actually read the opening post, allow me to summarize.

The evidence used to support IT only work if you assume IT is correct, which isn't how evidence works. The evidence can just as easily point to bad writing or some other explanation. The OP then gives several examples of this, which you can read on your own time.

But IT uses facts and events from the games to support it. The bad writing statement just uses speculation.

Could you please give specific example s of both the evidence for IT, and why you think the opponents of IT are only using speculations.

Well....there's...
This is the sound of Sheperds dreams.


This is scenes form the dirlict reaper...
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=235s

This  from bennezia
http://www.youtube.c...jiKYmhJg#t=222s


this is from the crazied salarian.


Note the many comment on whispers.....Also, note that guy on the dirlict reaper commenting on the reapersinvading his dream.And before we go on....

Remeber Shepard too was on the dirlect reaper and has contact with many reaper devices.
And this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

Remeber what was said about indoctrination...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI1yekAjJls 

........
Then there's.....
http://www.youtube.c...yJo3EzZZk#t=71s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIQfmWx3dI 

http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=273s
....
So ya...IT uses facts...

[wheelierdan]

i see parallels between this interesting phenominon we are getting a front row seat to, and religion.  This belief system spawns out of a rejection of an end, in fact, a major justification in Indoctrination Theory is that a savoir is coming and his name is dlc.  Over time it is forggotten that the theory was a fan fic, now many believe it was all part of the divine plan. They have scripture they quote in the form of youtube videos. Not only do they reject the end, but they reject that it is the end.  Slowly the adherents are moving from, "this is what i believe" to "this is fact and everyone has to accept that."

I think you see the same sort of behavior at play in religion, i believe it largely spawns out of fear of death, the inability to accept that there is no afterlife.  religion is lifes dlc;)

[dreman9999]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

I think alot of people pull in more evidence than what would be intended towards the indoctrination theory  (Seriously if i hear people talk about the ****ing pistol one more time...did no one play me1?)

I also think naysayers can be a little hand wavey on the subject.

I think indoctrination is highly likely and the best way forward.

Why would a me1 type gun randomly pop up at the end of ME3? Can you say where it came from and why it doesn't over heat?

[Golferguy758]

Thread makes me laugh pretty damn hard. Well played, OP. Well played.

Why can't people just get it through their heads that nothing is true or false until bioware announces it to be true or false?

[Tov01]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Since so many seem unwilling to actually read the opening post, allow me to summarize.

The evidence used to support IT only work if you assume IT is correct, which isn't how evidence works. The evidence can just as easily point to bad writing or some other explanation. The OP then gives several examples of this, which you can read on your own time.

But IT uses facts and events from the games to support it. The bad writing statement just uses speculation.

Could you please give specific example s of both the evidence for IT, and why you think the opponents of IT are only using speculations.

Well....there's...
This is the sound of Sheperds dreams.


This is scenes form the dirlict reaper...
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=235s

This  from bennezia
http://www.youtube.c...jiKYmhJg#t=222s


this is from the crazied salarian.


Note the many comment on whispers.....Also, note that guy on the dirlict reaper commenting on the reapersinvading his dream.And before we go on....

Remeber Shepard too was on the dirlect reaper and has contact with many reaper devices.
And this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

Remeber what was said about indoctrination...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI1yekAjJls 

........
Then there's.....
http://www.youtube.c...yJo3EzZZk#t=71s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIQfmWx3dI 

http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=273s
....
So ya...IT uses facts...

I would prefer if you wrote it all down, but I guess this will do.

Out of curiosity, what points do youthink is the most important, so we can start with those.

[wheelierdan]

lazy programming, or perhaps they couldnt think of another way to balance the end, i believe if you wait the longest amount of time before starting the mission you can get 3 sets of husks plus marauder shields (havent done this myself) so thats 9 husks and a marauder and everyones using a pistol on varying dificulty levels with no back up or powers. maybe they didnt know how else to balance it.

[Ziggeh]

dreman9999 wrote...]
Why would a me1 type gun randomly pop up at the end of ME3? Can you say where it came from and why it doesn't over heat?

The Illusive Man magically pulls a massive pistol out of Andersons ass. There is no way that man could have comfortably accommodated that pistol in his colon. (Though it would explain the groaning and stilted movement.)

Why the pistol isn't overheating seems like a really minor issue to focus on.

On mars Shepards helmet keeps magically appearing and dissappearing at convenient moments. There can be only one conclusion. It is a dream helmet.

[dreman9999]

Tov01 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Since so many seem unwilling to actually read the opening post, allow me to summarize.

The evidence used to support IT only work if you assume IT is correct, which isn't how evidence works. The evidence can just as easily point to bad writing or some other explanation. The OP then gives several examples of this, which you can read on your own time.

But IT uses facts and events from the games to support it. The bad writing statement just uses speculation.

Could you please give specific example s of both the evidence for IT, and why you think the opponents of IT are only using speculations.

Well....there's...
This is the sound of Sheperds dreams.


This is scenes form the dirlict reaper...
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=690s
http://www.youtube.c...JFRvDUp4#t=235s

This  from bennezia
http://www.youtube.c...jiKYmhJg#t=222s


this is from the crazied salarian.


Note the many comment on whispers.....Also, note that guy on the dirlict reaper commenting on the reapersinvading his dream.And before we go on....

Remeber Shepard too was on the dirlect reaper and has contact with many reaper devices.
And this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5vKMfh6gBk

Remeber what was said about indoctrination...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI1yekAjJls 

........
Then there's.....
http://www.youtube.c...yJo3EzZZk#t=71s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJIQfmWx3dI 

http://www.youtube.c...ZuSHpWwo#t=273s
....
So ya...IT uses facts...

I would prefer if you wrote it all down, but I guess this will do.

Out of curiosity, what points do youthink is the most important, so we can start with those.

The simularities of Sarens argument, synthesis and the fate of the protheans.
The sounds in Sheperds dreams, the comment of whispers being from people who were indoctrinated and the ammount of contact with reaper artifacts.

And last but not least, Everything that happened to Paul Grayson in ME:retrubustion.
It's important to note that Sheperd is in the process of indoctrination and it only expidits when he was near Harbiger at the end of the game.
It was orginally going to be used as a gameplay element, but was cut due to difficulties.(source last hour app.)

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 mars 2012 - 07:04 .

[dreman9999]

Ziggeh wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...]
Why would a me1 type gun randomly pop up at the end of ME3? Can you say where it came from and why it doesn't over heat?

The Illusive Man magically pulls a massive pistol out of Andersons ass. There is no way that man could have comfortably accommodated that pistol in his colon. (Though it would explain the groaning and stilted movement.)

Why the pistol isn't overheating seems like a really minor issue to focus on.

On mars Shepards helmet keeps magically appearing and dissappearing at convenient moments. There can be only one conclusion. It is a dream helmet.

1. Anderson is a general at war, of course he would have a weapon when he's on the feild.
2. Thepistol not over heating is naot a minor issue..It's the main flaw of the gun. If it was a me1 , it would over heat.
3. They cut to black and offscreen, they put on helments, then the cut to black to take it off. It never magicly poops on and off in the game.

[STAG IRONHIDE]

NAWhisperBlade wrote...

What I don't get is why anyone sits down to write such a long post.

Just keep your mouth shut and wait for the official announcements.

Yeah that post was way too long. Either way, nice attitude. We are naughty little children who have wronged Bioware, huh?

Yeah right. People have the right to be mad, Bioware is only hurting themselves at this point.

[Cyan-Glow]

OP seems to have his heart set on finding proof. An interesting read and a thorough, seemingly logical analysis, but somewhat ironic in the fact that he comments on assumptions while personally making several. (The obvious one: correlating the leave of the writer to the rushed quality of the ending)

While IT is widely appealing, it is not accepted as absolute truth by all people who choose to side with it. Further, some people will choose to believe it because they believe they can pressure Bio-Ware to make it into reality. That is after all the premise of the Retake movement, IT just offers a good starting point for additional content and many hope Bio-Ware will jump on board whether it was their original intention or not.

Your language is superb, and your education shines through, but there is a bit to be desired when it comes to the patronizing tone of the piece. Assuming that you alone have convinced all silly IT believers and set them straight is a bit demeaning.

Great work on the effort, it's a rarity to read something so interesting on the forums.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

Excellent post.

I've always believed that the whole ending was nothing more than EA grabbing Bioware by the balls and pulling on them with ridiculous dead lines.

However, your reasons for disproving the details of indoctrination theory and many of the support you have used also begs the question.

Your reasons and supports for the claim that the ending was rushed were solid. And requires less assumptions compared to the indoctrination theory, thus trumping it. But again, due to the vague nature of the ending, all your other points refuting the IT fall to the same logic fallacies you've brought up.

[Ziggeh]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Anderson is a general at war, of course he would have a weapon when he's on the feild.

Where is he keeping it? He doesn't have a holster, a bag or pockets big enough to contain such a large weapon.

dreman9999 wrote...
3. They cut to black and offscreen, they put on helments, then the cut to black to take it off. It never magicly poops on and off in the game.

And where are they keeping them when not upon their heads? Do they fold neatly away? Do they have gallifreyan pockets? Or is it narrative convenience?

[zephyr2025]

People use words like "theory", "facts", "truth", etc about a piece of fiction is one of the saddest things I've seen on the internet. Can you guys at least be spending this energy on something that's actually real?

It doesn't matter what "evidence" you guys find because at the end of the day it's still just something that's been made up and someone like Casey Hudson can come out and say it's true one day, and then the next day say it's false.

@dreman9999 I don't see how those are facts. We already know what indoctrination is. It doesn't mean that whispers and dreams are only the result of indoctrination. Rain makes you wet, but if you're wet it doesn't mean it rained.

[Denora]

Impressive post. All evidence for and against IT isn't based on any real facts. We won't know anything solid until an official announcement, and honestly even then I doubt they'll say "yes it's true" or "nope IT is false". We'll have to actually play the ending DLC (whatever it's called or is) to see the truth behind the matter.

[STAG IRONHIDE]

Ziggeh wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. Anderson is a general at war, of course he would have a weapon when he's on the feild.

Where is he keeping it? He doesn't have a holster, a bag or pockets big enough to contain such a large weapon.

dreman9999 wrote...
3. They cut to black and offscreen, they put on helments, then the cut to black to take it off. It never magicly poops on and off in the game.

And where are they keeping them when not upon their heads? Do they fold neatly away? Do they have gallifreyan pockets? Or is it narrative convenience?

In his hand? .....

Or maybe he has a sling under his jacket? Are you really arguing that......

[STAG IRONHIDE]

zephyr2025 wrote...

People use words like "theory", "facts", "truth", etc about a piece of fiction is one of the saddest things I've seen on the internet. Can you guys at least be spending this energy on something that's actually real?

It doesn't matter what "evidence" you guys find because at the end of the day it's still just something that's been made up and someone like Casey Hudson can come out and say it's true one day, and then the next day say it's false.

@dreman9999 I don't see how those are facts. We already know what indoctrination is. It doesn't mean that whispers and dreams are only the result of indoctrination. Rain makes you wet, but if you're wet it doesn't mean it rained.

They're just disappointed with the ending and are trying to connect the dots. I agree though, once they make DLC they very well could just be running with the popular theory.

The ending was garbage as it stands, plain and simple. All the debating and rage going on over it is really sucking the life from the series.

[thefallen2far]

Eviscerator03 wrote...

So there we have it. The guts of the beast are laid open for all to see.

I really don't think you make the case you think you make.  Metaphores, parrallels, quantum physics allegories and comparisons to hypothetical scenarios.  All that, and you never actually said anything of substance. 

I don't believe that their intent was indoctrination theory because it would have been too brilliant an ending and I really don't think that highly of the creators right now.  I'm not saying that as an insult, I'm saying it works too well to be intended.  They would have to be the James Joyce of our generation to have planned this since the beginning and the flaws in development and story show they're not capable of it.

That said.... I think they should do it.  I asked about 30 people if they liked the ending of mass effect, half flipantly said it sucked, 4 or 5 of them would go into detail of why it sucked so badly with a few of those people who were flipant throwing in a few details during the conversation.  3 people came into the store I was at to return the game.  about 7 people said they didn't like the ending, felt they understood what they were going for, but it just didn't pan out.  One person, I genuinely believed liked it [of course he worked at the store].  the rest didn't really care.   This is just sample data for me, but I haven't seen too many people saying anything of substance about the game.  Incoc theory is as good a way as any to undo the ending and try again.

Modifié par thefallen2far, 31 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[Ziggeh]

STAG IRONHIDE wrote...

In his hand? .....

Or maybe he has a sling under his jacket? Are you really arguing that......

I'm arguing that is a game, one in which a number of compromises are made for narrative and/or programming convenience.

Pointing to these compromises as proof that all is not what it seems is to ignore the reasonably obvious reasons for them to exist as well as all previous examples.

[Bedevil123]

bump

[Wolven_Soul]

okay, I am not going to read all of that.  I am just going to say that your right in that there is no truly strong evidence in favor of Indoctrination.  However, there is not any truly strong evidence against it either. 

That being said, though I like the theory, I am not in the mind that it is true.  It could be though, it seems to fit.  I just think that the whole thing is really bad writing though.

[Hydralysk]

Finally a good post detailing why IT is just a theory, and a theory that makes many assumptions just to make it work rather than it just being a Bioware screwup.

I would hope that this would help people who go "IT is FACT you cannot dispute it!" realize that their theory isn't infallible, but I doubt it.