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Bioware's misstep with Tali's face has far larger consequences.


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#251
Deltoran

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Atalanta wrote...

wesr wrote...

Bioware just got lazy and couldn't spend an hour modeling a head.


The reason that was given was that if they made a model for her, people would mod the game so that she was never wearing a face mask. I can't say that I blame them, but it would have been a really cool moment to show her face on Rannoch. They really missed out on that one.


They actually gave that as a reason?  Any link?  In any case, I was fine with the design itself, just irritated with the lack of in-game model...so like a lot people, perhaps they'll make it part of the upcoming DLC which will fix everything (I hope...lol).

#252
Soviet Rei

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Can anyone actually link me to the image of her face? Hell, I google-image searched 'tali's face' and beyond the typical joke photoshops I can't find it. :v

#253
TK514

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Given their evolved role in Rannoch's ecosystem, namely seed and pollen carriers, I fully expected the Quarians to be lightly furred naturally and completely artificially bald in their suits. At the very least I would have expected neatly trimmer crew cut length. I can't even imagine what long hair would look like after continuous decades in a helmet, but I'll bet 'flowing' and 'Full of body' would not be the descriptive terms I'd use.

#254
ed87

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Everything about that reveal was lazy.

#255
lillitheris

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Messier87 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Again, look at the actual BioWare concept art I linked above. That is what they meant by similar. Not someone who's by all accounts a nearly perfect sample of what a human looks like.


As subtle as they may be, the differences I pointed out earlier still exist in Tali's photo. Taken a step further, in order to make the differences more prominent, you'd have something like this: [snip image]


…Well, yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. But that's not what BioWare decided to do. Not only did they not take a step further, they fell backwards and rolled down a hill.

I don't want to get into the whole "too human vs. too alien" debate, especially when the arguments boil down to "my opinion is better than yours." Why mock other people for their personal tastes when you know that disagreement is inevitable given the mixed reception in this thread?


I disagree. Not about a “mixed reception” or disagreement, of course. But the argument constantly forwarded about the picture is that “quarians look like humans”. They don't.

This is what BioWare concept art says “most similar to human” looks like:

Image IPB

The incredible laziness of the rendition we got leads me to believe that they pretty much said “f- it” when it came to vetting the whole thing, and they let the complete departure from their own canon slide.

I'm sure there're tons of people who think it's just fine to get another pretty lady* in the game but I frankly expected much more…craftmanship. Pride in what they do. What's the term…artistic integrity. Silly me.

* And it's not just not any lady. She's a beauty pageant winner. By all accounts, traditional beauty pageants favour the most representative of commonly held species ideals - so “Tali” isn't just a human, she's ‘the human’.

Modifié par lillitheris, 02 avril 2012 - 07:32 .


#256
lillitheris

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Stepping away from the above for a moment, I actually just got to Grunt in my replay, and he's talking about spines. Quarians for some reason have a better-protected spinal column. (Theoretically he could be referring to the suits…but everyone can wear armour, so it wouldn't be an inherent advantage.)

#257
Messier87

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durasteel wrote...

I don't mind the photoshopped image, and I think their concept of Quarians is better than any of the fan art concepts I've seen. The problem I have is with the quality of the photoshopping. It is very, very obviously a rush job.

To do it right, they would have to get a model (maybe Liz/Ash Sroka) in, do some practical makeup on her (for the markings and reference markers for the digital effects,) then take the picture and photoshop in a background that looks like Rannoch (maybe New Mexico or Kenya) and the more alien features, like tridactyl hands.

If that had done it that way, no one would be objecting, I think.


Agreed. I like Tali's face, and a good number of deviantartists have made great creations that stay true to the canon design. Regarding objections... while the devs at BioWare can't completely satisfy everyone, I do think they can find a way to reduce the amount of grief as you described.

We all have very high expectations. The mystery behind the mask has built up over the course of the series (especially with that tease in ME2). Most of us developed an image of Tali in our headcanon before the ME3 launch. With our own set of aesthetic preferences, a mixed reception on Tali's appearance is expected.

However, I think that more people would be at ease with the situation if they noticed a greater emphasis on effort overall. To me it's a minor grievance, especially compared to the major criticisms fans have with the game. However, I still support the idea of an animated model for her canon face, as long as it's done with a sense of pride and passion.

#258
cutegigi

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lillitheris wrote...

Stepping away from the above for a moment, I actually just got to Grunt in my replay, and he's talking about spines. Quarians for some reason have a better-protected spinal column. (Theoretically he could be referring to the suits…but everyone can wear armour, so it wouldn't be an inherent advantage.)


if bioware's laziness teach me something: lets just say their spine have adamantium bonded into it, hence indestructible, and call it a day. 

Modifié par cutegigi, 02 avril 2012 - 07:54 .


#259
Peranor

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Showing Tali´s face or not must always have been a problematic decision for Bioware. I imagie they where in a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation.
But since they eventually decided to show her face they could at least have but their backs into it. I think more people would be happy with the looks Bioware decided to give her if it all didn't feel so lazy.

Personally i think her face looks way to human compared to the rest of her body. 3 fingers/toes, lower legs are bowed backwards. And the fact that they are a dextro-protein species like the Turians.
But Bioware has now told us how she look like and im fine with that. But im not fine with how they handeled the whole thing. lazy and rushed. And a photo? They had a perfect perfect moment on Rannoch to show her face that would have been so epic and emotional. But no. Instead we get a photo. And a badly shopped one at that.

Its like they forgot about her face up untill the last moment of development and then just remembered "Oh sh*t guys, we forgot about Tali's face! Quick someone open google image search and MS Paint!"

Modifié par anorling, 02 avril 2012 - 08:10 .


#260
cutegigi

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anorling wrote...

Showing Tali´s face or not must always have been a problematic decision for Bioware. I imagie they where in a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation.
But since they eventually decided to show her face they could at least have but their backs into it. I think more people would be happy with the looks Bioware decided to give her if it all didn't feel so lazy.

Personally i think her face looks way to human compared to the rest of her body. 3 fingers/toes, lower legs are bowed backwards. And the fact that they are a dextro-protein species like the Turians.
But Bioware has now told us how she look like and im fine with that. But im not fine with how they handeled the whole thing. lazy and rushed. And a photo? They had a perfect perfect moment on Rannoch to show her face that would have been so epic and emotional. But no. Instead we get a photo. And a badly shopped one at that.

Its like they forgot about her face up untill the last moment of development and then just remembered "Oh sh*t guys, we forgot about Tali's face! Quick someone open google image search and MS Paint!"


but... but... they remember chobot !!! :crying:

#261
Peranor

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cutegigi wrote...

anorling wrote...

Showing Tali´s face or not must always have been a problematic decision for Bioware. I imagie they where in a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation.
But since they eventually decided to show her face they could at least have but their backs into it. I think more people would be happy with the looks Bioware decided to give her if it all didn't feel so lazy.

Personally i think her face looks way to human compared to the rest of her body. 3 fingers/toes, lower legs are bowed backwards. And the fact that they are a dextro-protein species like the Turians.
But Bioware has now told us how she look like and im fine with that. But im not fine with how they handeled the whole thing. lazy and rushed. And a photo? They had a perfect perfect moment on Rannoch to show her face that would have been so epic and emotional. But no. Instead we get a photo. And a badly shopped one at that.

Its like they forgot about her face up untill the last moment of development and then just remembered "Oh sh*t guys, we forgot about Tali's face! Quick someone open google image search and MS Paint!"


but... but... they remember chobot !!! :crying:



True that.
Could this all be because all the development funds got redirected into rendering Chobot's jumpsuit instead of rendering Tali's face?

#262
ubermensch007

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huntsman2310 wrote...

So all of the Talimancers out there (including me) now know what is finally under the mask of everyone's favourite Quarian.

Long story short you don't actually see it on her, you see it on a photo of  her. And its a photoshopped stock image.

Now I'm sure that they would have had the appearance of the Quarians nailed down early on in the franchise, but that isn't what this is about.

Specifically unveiling Tali's face also unveiled the Quarian people's mystique. I mean she is the literal face of the Quarian people.

The problem with that is that due to an unsatisfying and lazy job on handling Tali's face, they've accidentally created a problem with the other Quarians as well.

In actual fact I think it completely countermands the descriptions of Quarians by others as well.

Grunt mentions that a Quarian takes effort to stab, as you have to twist the knife through their plates first.

Javik says that even back then Quarians were regarded as very attractive, possibly more so then the Asari.

Also doesn't make sense once you look at Tali herself.

behind her visor, she has glowing eyes, might be because of the visor but we don't know. She also has some very sharp features to her. And doesn't appear to have long hair either.

Sorry I'm just saying that someone missed up bigtime at Bioware. They better not the second time.


What the hell are you talking about?! Grunt said that about turians-- not quarians.But he did say that quarians aren't soft like humans, salarians and asari.

I absolutely love the picture of herself that Tali gives to Shepard. Its so the kind of thing that a girl would do for her man. And from what I saw, Javik was right.The quarians may very well be the most aesthetically appealing race in the Milky Way Galaxy. I"ve lost count of how many times I've gone back up to the Cabin to look at her image.To boilster my resolve and up Shepard's morale.While trying to save the day.

I haven't posted in a while now, in a thread are started a few months ago:  'A question for all my fellow Talimancers' but suffice to say, that I was unsure whether I was going to continue my romance with Tali in ME3.But you know what ultimately caused me to stay with her, instead of calling it quits and hooking up with someone else.It was after looking at that picture of her unmasked face...

They say a picture is worth a thousand words-- well after seeing her face, I saw a beautiful strong woman.Who looked like someone worth looking forward to coming home to at the end of the day. I saw someone that I could see Shep building a life with.Tali was no longer the cute adorable Sci-Fi tech girl with a purple bucket on her head.She is a woman, who is worth fighting for.Like Liara ask Shep post Lair of the ShadowBroker if Tali is who you romance in ME2.

And even Ashley surprised me, by not being all that bothered by Shepard being with Tali instead of her now.When I visited her in the hospital on one of my most recent playthroughs; she says something like, "Tali is like a sister to me.So I'm okay with you two being together." Ashley wasn't so thrilled with Jack and I being together though.This is one of the best dialogues in the game that I have discovered thus far.Ash and Shep really trade blows, if you chose the renegade response.But i guess I'm kind of Off-Topic now.

In closing: I love how BioWare handled the reveal of Tali's face.I don't think that it could have been handled better.The quarians speak of how they may very well still wear there helmets to the outside world, simply because it has become a part of thier culture now and I get that.Seeing a quarians face, is like a hanar revealing its soul name to you.It is a privlege and honor.And I'm cool with dat. ^_^

Plus, its also nice to see that humans are not the only species with hair after all, in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 02 avril 2012 - 09:27 .


#263
Messier87

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lillitheris wrote...

…Well, yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. But that's not what BioWare decided to do. Not only did they not take a step further, they fell backwards and rolled down a hill.


What I was trying to say is that BioWare did make an attempt to modify the facial structure of Tali in relation to her human counterpart in the actual photo. The differences are there, albeit subtle to the point where hardly anyone recognizes them unless they're pointed out.

In my opinion, a step backwards would be if BioWare didn't do anything to the positioning/shape of her eyes and nose, which isn't the case here.

lillitheris wrote... 

I disagree. Not about a “mixed reception” or disagreement, of course. But the argument constantly forwarded about the picture is that “quarians look like humans”. They don't.

This is what BioWare concept art says “most similar to human” looks like:

*snip*

 

This is the way I see it. If quarians are described as being the "most similar to humans" out of all the galaxy's species, we need to look at another species with a known appearance as a reference. The asari: for simplicity, human females with blue scaly skin, facial markings, no ears, and scalp crests.

If the asari are this similar to human females already, and quarians are apparently more similar despite their bowed shins and fewer digits, my assumption is that quarians would have to make up for those differences by having additional human-like qualities (such as hair, facial structure, and so on).

In my headcanon, quarians look very similar humans. Disregarding actual canon, my speculation is not right or wrong, or a deviation from known lore. It's simply a product of my interpretation, imagination, and personal taste.

Then we have the concept art which you've linked. Tali's design seems to be inspired by a combination of several concepts. A human female face as a foundation (concept #1 or #6), a nose similar to concept #2, pupil-less eyes from concept #3, and facial markings similar to concept #4. 

So Tali's face is a complete departure from canon, you say. How? From the concept art alone, how does Tali deviate so greatly from these face designs? This is where I fail to follow you.

It seems that your definition of "canon" includes your own aesthetic preferences. You claim that the statement "quarians look like humans" is false. From another perspective, in order for quarians to be the most similar to humans, they must also look like humans. The concept art and descriptions of quarians from lore do not rule out the possibility of a human-like Tali. Concepts #1 and #6 are essentially human, am I to ignore them? 

The point is that you are arguing about the design of Tali, claiming that quarians don't look like humans, while appealing to your own personal bias. There is nothing factually wrong about a more human-like Tali or a less human-like Tali, as long as the restrictions set by lore are respected. This is why I would rather not debate about Tali being too human or too alien. It's subjective and counterproductive.

#264
Peranor

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Imagine Tali nude. Ok, I guess most of us has already. But for the sake of the argument, imagine her nude. And then look at her bowed shins, strange almost claw like feets and hands with fewer digits etc.
And then look at her face. It's out of place. It looks to human compared to the rest of the body.

But I guess Bioware has made their choise. So I just have to live with it :)

Modifié par anorling, 02 avril 2012 - 11:03 .


#265
ubermensch007

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anorling wrote...

Imagine Tali nude. Ok, I guess most of us has already. But for the sake of the argument, imagine her nude. And then look at her bowed shins, strange almost claw like feets and hands with fewer digits etc.
And then look at her face. It's out of place. It looks to human compared to the rest of the body.

But I guess Bioware has made their choise. So I just have to live with it :)


I don't think Tali's look is out of place at all. In fact quarians look sort of like the new species created in Splice.

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://pietmondriaan.com/pm/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/splice_pic-394x500.jpg&sa=X&ei=8Ih5T_OhOdLD0AG-4sTjDQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc4IQ&usg=AFQjCNHO4MhHEpLsRnJ_ZVz1eyucuoMmSA[/img]

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://twitchfilm.com/reviews/splicedren.jpg&sa=X&ei=MIl5T76HLcji0QG8qaicDQ&ved=0CAkQ8wc4Fg&usg=AFQjCNHOUVHOpTyYTNKj5qrT4RLn9-ckGw[/img]

Who I personally found to be very beautiful and dangerous. And that sex scene she had with Adrien Brody's character was pretty hot :devil:

Modifié par ubermensch007, 02 avril 2012 - 11:12 .


#266
Peranor

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ubermensch007 wrote...

anorling wrote...

Imagine Tali nude. Ok, I guess most of us has already. But for the sake of the argument, imagine her nude. And then look at her bowed shins, strange almost claw like feets and hands with fewer digits etc.
And then look at her face. It's out of place. It looks to human compared to the rest of the body.

But I guess Bioware has made their choise. So I just have to live with it :)


I don't think Tali's look is out of place at all. In fact quarians look sort of like the new species created in Splice.

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://pietmondriaan.com/pm/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/splice_pic-394x500.jpg&sa=X&ei=8Ih5T_OhOdLD0AG-4sTjDQ&ved=0CAQQ8wc4IQ&usg=AFQjCNHO4MhHEpLsRnJ_ZVz1eyucuoMmSA[/img]



Who I personally found to be very beautiful and dangerous. And that sex scene she had with Adrien Brody's character was pretty hot :devil:



Wow, i've never though about that. even though I saw the movie. But now when I see that picture she does look very quarian :)
Just loose the tail and the thumbs on the feets, have a little less bowed shins and add some hair and you got youself a Tali :)

#267
comrade gando

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The picture doesnt even make sense, like how is he outside without a suit? If bioware put in a trollface at least I would know they were kidding around but this I dont even know if they are being serious with it. Not to mention they didnt say squat about it ever since it was revealed

#268
SaladinDheonqar

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I'm pretty sure Bioware had no idea what the Quarians looked like until they decided photoshopping a stock image was the quickest and cheapest way to reveal her face. They might've dropped hints here and there, but I get the feeling the art department never really worked on their true forms. Whatever really happened over at Bioware, Tali and the Quarians deserved better than what they got. It seems like Bioware is losing touch with the basic concept of 'if you're going to do something, make sure you do it right.'

#269
D58

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i wouldnt be suprised if bioware does a piece on tali for the new endings maybe even showing her face just because of peoples reaction to the picture

#270
lillitheris

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SaladinDheonqar wrote...
They might've dropped hints here and there, but I get the feeling the art department never really worked on their true forms.


The image above kinda invalidates this assertion, they clearly did :) Read the text there too.

It's just that for whatever reason, it was decided that fans – presumably used to all the omghawt romace options – would rather date Miss England than a slightly less human-looking person. Judging from the response, they certainly cornered a lot of the casual market.

#271
Pallid

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SaladinDheonqar wrote...


I'm pretty sure Bioware had no idea what the Quarians looked like until they decided photoshopping a stock image was the quickest and cheapest way to reveal her face. They might've dropped hints here and there, but I get the feeling the art department never really worked on their true forms. Whatever really happened over at Bioware, Tali and the Quarians deserved better than what they got. It seems like Bioware is losing touch with the basic concept of 'if you're going to do something, make sure you do it right.'

There are scans from artbook:
Image IPB

so they definitely had some ideas.

Whoops didn't notice this is already here on the same page...

Modifié par omskman, 02 avril 2012 - 06:36 .


#272
Gerudan

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D58 wrote...

i wouldnt be suprised if bioware does a piece on tali for the new endings maybe even showing her face just because of peoples reaction to the picture


I would be surprised enough, if they would make decent new endings. 

#273
comrade gando

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Question is how would bioware explain where that picture came from? Would they come up with some kind of wierd explanation or retcon it all together? Sincerly I hope for the latter.

#274
D58

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comrade gando wrote...

Question is how would bioware explain where that picture came from? Would they come up with some kind of wierd explanation or retcon it all together? Sincerly I hope for the latter.


Who knows maybe if they make a new mass effect game and Tali is there they would have that girl from the picture playing her? unlikely but you never know

#275
Alamar2078

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I'm just hoping in any "ending fix" maybe they'll show an unmasked Tali if she's your LI ... even if it's just in a fixed LI flashback ...