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The Gun List of Shame (and how to fix it)


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#1
Atheosis

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 There's a lot of discussion here about weapon balance, and what needs to be done about it, and after quite few hours I've come to realizations I'd like to share.  First is the reality that the wide variety of guns in the game, with their disparate styles and roles, are never going to be truly "balanced".  Players use guns differently with different character builds, so it's just not going to happen.  However, there is a certain sub-group of guns that virtually no one uses at the moment because they are viewed as being utterly awful (or at least sub-par versus other comparable guns) by nearly everyone.  And that's where game balance by Bioware needs to be focused first, because we need more options that are viable (especially on Gold) much more than we need every gun to live up to the standard of the GPS or the BW (this applies to class balance as well, but that's a different topic).  Here's a list of suggestions as to how the "Gun List of Shame" can be addressed, mostly for discussion (and the consideration of Bioware on the slim chance they actually pay attention to these forums):

1. Geth Pulse Rifle
With the reduction in weight this gun got better, but it remains a weapon most people avoid like the plague.  Right now it runs neck and neck with the Avenger for the lightweight AR option for power spammers, but seeing as the vast majority have the Avenger leveled much higher it generally loses that battle.  Personally I only run it as a cryo ammo delivery system on my Drell Adept, and I know I'm in the minority for using it with any of my characters at all. 
Solution: Increase its damage by 20% from 21.0-27.4 to 25.2-32.9.

2. Phaeston
The Phaeston suffers from a similar problem as the GPR.  Namely that it's very comparable to the Avenger.  This time though, it's also heavier.  Overall the Phaeston is just an underwhelming gun right now, and honestly I almost never see anyone using it, especially high N7 players who know better.
Solution: Increase its damage by 20% from 34.7-42.2 to 41.6-50.6.

3. Revenant
The Revenant actually sees a fair bit of use by players, so it's the exception on this list relative to my original statement that these guns don't get used by most people.  The thing is that I'm pretty sure the Revenant sees more use simply for the fact that it actually feels powerful when you use it and/or it's the only LMG in the game.  It's also worth noting that it's only generally seen on Turian Soldiers, and if you ask me a gun shouldn't need a certain buffing power from a certain class to be viable.  The problem with the Revenant is simple: it can't reliably get headshots and therfore its damage (which looks nice on paper) is gimped.
Solution: Reduce its recoil by 20% from 0.41 to 0.33 (0.61 to 0.49 zoomed in), and reduce its aim error range by 20% from 2.0-5.5 to 1.6-4.4 (1.2-2.5 to 1.0-2.0 zoomed in).  This overall change should tighten the gun's grouping which will help it actually attain headshots fairly reliably at short to medium range (possibly even long range with a Turian Soldier). 

4. Viper
It's simple with the Viper.  The gun is simply outclassed by the Carnifex in every way outside of having more spare shots and an integral scope.  It weighs considerably more, does less damage per shot, and has a slightly lower RoF.  There is virtually no reason to ever use this gun and it shows, seeing as I think I can count on one hand how many times I've seen teammates use it.
Solution: Increase its damage by 40% from 229.4-286.7 to 321.2-401.4.  This may seem like an extreme buff, but it's the only way to make the Viper competive.  It's just that bad right now.

5. Incisor
Oh boy.  Where do I even begin?  This is quite possibly the gun I hate the most in the entire game.  Its recoil is beyond idiotic and precludes consistent headshots beyond the first round, which are supposed to be a sniper rifle's bread and butter, and on top of that it does ridiculously low damage.  This is a really bad version of the Vindicator, and the Vindicator is no more than adequate itself.  Seriously, this gun is god awful.
Solution: Increase its damage by 20% from 67.8-84.8 to 81.4-101.8, and reduce its zoomed recoil by 50% from 0.437 to 0.218.

6. Arc Pistol
Why?  That's all I've got when I looked at the design of this gun.  The Arc Pistol just doesn't make sense.  First of all it weighs as much as a Paladin while its charged shot does considerably less damage and is consderably slower at the same time.  On top of that its rapid fire mode just barely surpasses the Predator and Phalanx while weighing more than twice as much.  
Solution: Reduce its weight from 1.5-0.9 to 1.0-0.5.  

7. Scorpion
I really want to like the Scorpion.  It's the only gun that gibs enemies after all.  And because I want to like it I've used it far more than its actual viability would warrant.  But when it comes to my teammates I never see it, and I know why.  For as much fun as it is to have a pistol that gibs enemies, the gun simply falls short in functionality for two simple reasons: its projectiles take too long to explode (leading to many shots exploding after the target is dead from others' attacks), and its ammo capacity is terrible due to wasted shots (see previous point) and the inability to headshot enemies like other pistols which is a major means of ammo conservation.  This is an odd gun that can really be fun to use while at the same time being obviously sub-par unless enemies are having a giant mosh in a hallway.
Solution: Reduce its explosion delay to less than a second, increase its magazine from 4 to 6, and increase its capacity from 20-30 to 30-40.

8. Hornet
You can sense the excellent gun just under the surface with this one, but the ridiculous recoil wrecks it.  It's as simple as that.
Solution: Implement the Shuriken's recoil parameters (or something very close).  That would make it actually feel like a rare. 

9. Locust
The classic pea-shooter, the Locust just doesn't do enough damage.  It feels nice and unlike the other SMG's is pretty damn stable and accurate, but the rounds it fire do so little damage, there's just no point.
Solution: Increase its damage by 20% from 30.1-39.3 to 36.1-47.2.

10. Tempest
More or less the same issues as the Locust, just better damage, more recoil, and less accuracy.
Solution: Increase its damage by 20% from 41.1-53.5 to 49.3-64.2.

11. Eviscerator (and Wraith)
The description of this gun says it's an "accurate" shotgun.  "Accurate" is a very subjective term, and when compared to the Geth Plasma Shotgun, the Eviscerator is clearly a joke in that department (the GPS is stupidly OPed, but that's a different topic).  If this gun actually had the tight grouping its description suggests, it might be worth something.
Solution: Tighten the weapon's spread to be comparable to the Talon.  This will both help the gun better match its description and give it a distinct feel from the other traditional style shotguns.


Anyway feel free to critique or add your thoughts.  I couldn't sleep and I thought I'd waste my time with this.  Cheers.

Modifié par Atheosis, 31 mars 2012 - 01:11 .


#2
Stonesoundjam

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When in doubt, predator?

#3
Zikel

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It's a good set of buffs, it would also be nice if Grall had a slightly faster projectile speed.
And about the scorpion, it would be a great weapon for power spamming classes if it didn't weight so much. Make it weight as much as Carniflex and it will be viable for gold.

#4
hbogyt II

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Should increase the rate of fire of Phaeston to that of a minigun instead of buffing the damage.

#5
Atheosis

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Stonesoundjam wrote...

When in doubt, predator?


When in need of the lightest backup firearm, Predator.  

#6
TexasToast712

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 This list is a total failure. These guns are perfectly fine. Especially the Revenant and Evi.

#7
Atheosis

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hbogyt II wrote...

Should increase the rate of fire of Phaeston to that of a minigun instead of buffing the damage.


You could do that I suppose, though you'd also need to increase it magazine size considerably.  Though it seems to me the damage buff is the better route if we are wanting to keep each of the guns' current identies while making them more viable.

#8
Atheosis

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TexasToast712 wrote...

 This list is a total failure. These guns are perfectly fine. Especially the Revenant and Evi.


Care to elaborate beyond a single sentence?  I've usd all these guns extensively, and I stand by my takes on them.  You seem to almsot be saying weapon balance overall in this game is good.  That can't possibly be your take.  Can it? 

:huh:

#9
TexasToast712

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Atheosis wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 This list is a total failure. These guns are perfectly fine. Especially the Revenant and Evi.


Care to elaborate beyond a single sentence?  I've usd all these guns extensively, and I stand by my takes on them.  You seem to almsot be saying weapon balance overall in this game is good.  That can't possibly be your take.  Can it? 

:huh:

Let me state it then.

This game is perfectly balanced. Any opinion you have on these guns is wrong. The Revenant and Evi especially don't need a buff. Leave the balance to the guys who made the game.

#10
Atheosis

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TexasToast712 wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 This list is a total failure. These guns are perfectly fine. Especially the Revenant and Evi.


Care to elaborate beyond a single sentence?  I've usd all these guns extensively, and I stand by my takes on them.  You seem to almsot be saying weapon balance overall in this game is good.  That can't possibly be your take.  Can it? 

:huh:

Let me state it then.

This game is perfectly balanced. Any opinion you have on these guns is wrong. The Revenant and Evi especially don't need a buff. Leave the balance to the guys who made the game.


<_<

#11
kingsims

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If they fix SMG ultra light materials and increase gun damage, reduce recoil alot more people would use them. The hurricane is the joke N7 Ultra rare.

Right now its a sniper, shotgun, pistol game. A 20% damage buff across all SMG's and Fixing the Ultra light materials would help.

#12
mywaywardson20232018

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I'm sorry to say but a lot of your fixes just won't work because of one simple fact:

Armored targets reduce the damage taken by any hit by a fixed number as high as 50 to a minimum of 5 damage.

Basically every gun in ME3 that has a serious problem has that problem due to this fact.

Then there are weapons like the Viper which are only useful when you do not have the better weapon or you don't have the better weapon at a high enough level (say you have Viper X and carni 1, in that case the Viper is better).

So here's a point by point rebuttle:

1)  GPR:  This weapon is the lightest hitting AR in the game reduced to dealing 5 damage to a majority of Armored targets.  Make this weapon place a DOT on its target that stacks up with every shot (EX: Deals 1 unreduceable damage every second for 4 seconds, resets duration and stacks with each hit).  The only other way to fix this weapon is to increase its damage by 30 to 50 points or give it 60 to 100% armor piercing.

2) Phaeston:  Both damage and ROF need increase.

3) Revenant:  This gun needs to be a valid choice for any character not just turian soldier.  In the hands of a turian soldier it should become a god.  Make the initial accuracy of this gun extremely accurate (perhaps perfect) but each shot decreases the accuracy making it very accurate in short bursts or extremely inaccurate full auto.  Damage and ROF increase would work too.

4) Viper:  Personally a slight weight reduction and a nerf to carni/paladin accuracy would be my choice.

5) Incisor:  This gun MUST be the highest dps sniper rifle in the game and be absolutely wicked if all 3 shots hit the head.  Increase damage per shot by 100% or so, leave everything else the same.  Make it a weapon used in cover that takes skill to use but is amazing if you can make it work.

6)  Arc Pistol:  Cut weight in half, make the charge up not shoot multiple shots but instead deal more damage for the individual shot.  Increase damage.

7)  Scorpion:  Cut weight at least, your time to explosion idea isn't bad either but the damage this weapon does is fine as is the clip (use the clip increase mod).

8)  Hornet:  This gun is the highest dps weapon in the game already.  Don't use it scoped, use it at point blank instead of a shotgun.  This gun would be worth taking if the reduced weight mod actually worked.  It is the close combat SMG, it's fine.

9)  Locust:  A tiny dps increase might bring it up to par but its already pretty good as a sidearm for engineers or adepts.  A slightly increased clip might help it too.

10)  Tempest:  I disagree, I think this gun should be like the perfect dark cyclone.  Increase the rate of fire (maybe double it) keep the accuracy bad and the damage low.  Let it shred at close range.

11)  Eviscerator/Wraith:  These guns become very good as soon as you get them to X where they allow you to use them with 200% cooldown bonus.  Perhaps buff them a tiny bit so that they start becoming useful sooner (like at V).  Maybe just a weight reduction.

Modifié par mywaywardson20232018, 31 mars 2012 - 01:32 .


#13
Atheosis

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kingsims wrote...

If they fix SMG ultra light materials and increase gun damage, reduce recoil alot more people would use them. The hurricane is the joke N7 Ultra rare.

Right now its a sniper, shotgun, pistol game. A 20% damage buff across all SMG's and Fixing the Ultra light materials would help.


The Hornet actually has very nice damage.  It's just got recoil from hell.

#14
Chrumpek

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TexasToast712 wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 This list is a total failure. These guns are perfectly fine. Especially the Revenant and Evi.


Care to elaborate beyond a single sentence?  I've usd all these guns extensively, and I stand by my takes on them.  You seem to almsot be saying weapon balance overall in this game is good.  That can't possibly be your take.  Can it? 

:huh:

Let me state it then.

This game is perfectly balanced. Any opinion you have on these guns is wrong. The Revenant and Evi especially don't need a buff. Leave the balance to the guys who made the game.


And you still didn't elaborate....

Everything is fine, leave everything to devs so far gave us ME3 ending and DA2 ;>

Feedback is appreciated everywhere, if you got your own opinion about balance - share it.

#15
Korolen

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TexasToast712 wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

TexasToast712 wrote...

 This list is a total failure. These guns are perfectly fine. Especially the Revenant and Evi.


Care to elaborate beyond a single sentence?  I've usd all these guns extensively, and I stand by my takes on them.  You seem to almsot be saying weapon balance overall in this game is good.  That can't possibly be your take.  Can it? 

:huh:

Let me state it then.

This game is perfectly balanced. Any opinion you have on these guns is wrong. The Revenant and Evi especially don't need a buff. Leave the balance to the guys who made the game.

So first you dismiss his argument without presenting any evidence, then you assert that the game is perfectly balanced when evidence to the contrary is present in every game you play. Ever wonder why 75% of the time, people use the Carnifex? It's because it's hands down the best gun in the game. There's really no reason to use anything else, especially any of the guns on this list: they all do less damage to a degree that makes them useless, weigh as much as an elephant, or have enough recoil that it's impossible to headshot consistently. Incisor, I'm looking at you.

So if you want to actually discuss his rather excellent list, please feel free to do so... as long as you use logic and well reasoned arguments, rather than simply dismissing his list out of hand. Otherwise, you just come off as a forum troll.

#16
lolpunch

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Scorpion serves it's purpose as a CC/area denial tool like the Falcon with the same general setup (magazine upgrade+barrel). Spamming the mines in the path of oncoming enemies at their feet greatly cuts the detonation time for the same overall effectiveness. Unfortunately, it has the exact same shortcoming of phantom shots, and supposedly doesn't apply ammo effects with the explosion like the Falcon does. Being ultra rare also makes it more difficult to keep up with other weapons.

Modifié par lolpunch, 31 mars 2012 - 01:37 .


#17
SinerAthin

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I agree with all your points (except that I wouldn't call GPS op, it's balanced).

I wouldn't mind seeing those weapons buffed.
Hell, I might even use some of them instead of my Carnifex or Black Widow!

#18
darkblade

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I pretty much disagree with the viper and incisor being bad.

The incisor does need to be more ME2ish but its still not crap. Its a trash mob sweeper and it does its job excellently. The gun actually surprised me.

The viper can hit a little harder, but the real problem is the RoF take it up. Also the it needs a shorter range scope. and the carni/paladin need accuracy nerfs.

#19
Guest_Aotearas_*

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Tempest is fine imo.

Either that or increase its RoF by at least 50%, increase damage by 10%, keep the recoil (proportionally of course) and make it a short range shredder and then increase the accuracy for the Locust aswell as its damage a bit.

#20
Atheosis

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mywaywardson20232018 wrote...

I'm sorry to say but a lot of your fixes just won't work because of one simple fact:

Armored targets reduce the damage taken by any hit by a fixed number as high as 50 to a minimum of 5 damage.

Basically every gun in ME3 that has a serious problem has that problem due to this fact.

Then there are weapons like the Viper which are only useful when you do not have the better weapon or you don't have the better weapon at a high enough level (say you have Viper X and carni 1, in that case the Viper is better).

So here's a point by point rebuttle:

1)  GPR:  This weapon is the lightest hitting AR in the game reduced to dealing 5 damage to a majority of Armored targets.  Make this weapon place a DOT on its target that stacks up with every shot (EX: Deals 1 unreduceable damage every second for 4 seconds, resets duration and stacks with each hit).  The only other way to fix this weapon is to increase its damage by 30 to 50 points or give it 60 to 100% armor piercing.

2) Phaeston:  Both damage and ROF need increase.

3) Revenant:  This gun needs to be a valid choice for any character not just turian soldier.  In the hands of a turian soldier it should become a god.  Make the initial accuracy of this gun extremely accurate (perhaps perfect) but each shot decreases the accuracy making it very accurate in short bursts or extremely inaccurate full auto.  Damage and ROF increase would work too.

4) Viper:  Personally a slight weight reduction and a nerf to carni/paladin accuracy would be my choice.

5) Incisor:  This gun MUST be the highest dps sniper rifle in the game and be absolutely wicked if all 3 shots hit the head.  Increase damage per shot by 100% or so, leave everything else the same.  Make it a weapon used in cover that takes skill to use but is amazing if you can make it work.

6)  Arc Pistol:  Cut weight in half, make the charge up not shoot multiple shots but instead deal more damage for the individual shot.  Increase damage.

7)  Scorpion:  Cut weight at least, your time to explosion idea isn't bad either but the damage this weapon does is fine as is the clip (use the clip increase mod).

8)  Hornet:  This gun is the highest dps weapon in the game already.  Don't use it scoped, use it at point blank instead of a shotgun.  This gun would be worth taking if the reduced weight mod actually worked.  It is the close combat SMG, it's fine.

9)  Locust:  A tiny dps increase might bring it up to par but its already pretty good as a sidearm for engineers or adepts.  A slightly increased clip might help it too.

10)  Tempest:  I disagree, I think this gun should be like the perfect dark cyclone.  Increase the rate of fire (maybe double it) keep the accuracy bad and the damage low.  Let it shred at close range.

11)  Eviscerator/Wraith:  These guns become very good as soon as you get them to X where they allow you to use them with 200% cooldown bonus.  Perhaps buff them a tiny bit so that they start becoming useful sooner (like at V).  Maybe just a weight reduction.


I agree that lightweight mats working would be a nice boost to SMG's.  At least they would be taken as secondary weapons a lot more if nothing else.  As far as the armor reducing damage point, I don't think all guns need to be innately effective against armor.  First of all, there are piercing mods and AP ammo, and on top of that lots of powers that work great against armor.   As for the rest:

1) Keep in mind that the GPR already super light and the perfect special ammo delivery system.  Not to say your idea isn't kind of cool, but it would need to have its weight boosted back up or it would become overpowered.

2) Either way damage is increased (it's just a matter of personal perference), but if you increase RoF you need to increase magazine size as well, or things become problematic.

3) Your idea is not that different from mine.  We both want the gun to be more accurate/stable so it can actually hit targets and maybe even score more than the occasional lucky headshot.  Increasing its damage is another option obviously, though again RoF increase has to include a magazine size buff as well, or it would get annoying.

4) Even then, the Viper is massively outclassed by things like the Mattock, Vindicator, and Saber.  I did a lot of comparisons, and my damage range feels like the sweet spot where it has roughly even numbers of advantages and disadvantages against the Carnifex, Paladin, and Saber.  In other words it would actually get used.  

5)  That could work, though I'm not sure skill can make up for the recoil issues.  Honestly though, even a 100% damage increase would probably not make the Incisor overpowered or anything (as long as its other issues remain).

6) That might work.  The Arc Pistol needs lots of help.  I'll say that much.

7) Meh.  I only shoot from the hip when I use it, and at close range I would much rather have a shotgun.  Though, yes lightweight materials would certainly help it as well.

8) The Locust doesn't kill anybody on Gold.  I guess it works as a lightweight finishing gun where powers have done most of the damage, but on its own its pretty weak.  I still think it needs a 20% damage boost honestly.

9)  I could live with that version of the Tempest.

10) Weight reduction would certainly help, but I feel being better at range is a better option and it fits their description.  Anyway my issue is more with the Eviscerator than the Wraith.  I just figured any improvements should be applied to both.

#21
Atheosis

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lolpunch wrote...

Scorpion serves it's purpose as a CC/area denial tool like the Falcon with the same general setup (magazine upgrade+barrel). Spamming the mines in the path of oncoming enemies at their feet greatly cuts the detonation time for the same overall effectiveness. Unfortunately, it has the exact same shortcoming of phantom shots, and supposedly doesn't apply ammo effects with the explosion like the Falcon does. Being ultra rare also makes it more difficult to keep up with other weapons.


Aiming at feet in my experience is more effective than shooting enemies I agree, but its far from reliable.  Still seems like a lot of bomblets wait to explode.  Plus there are times you just can't get the angle to target the feet of an enemy.  The disappearing projectile bug is definitely an issue as well, but I don't see as much a balance issue as a technical one.

#22
Falcon365

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Let me state it then.

This game is perfectly balanced. Any opinion you have on these guns is wrong. The Revenant and Evi especially don't need a buff. Leave the balance to the guys who made the game.


If the game were perfectly balanced we wouldn't see people using the same weapon/mod combinations ad nauseum. More accurately, we would actually see people using weird niche weapons like the scorpion and the arc pistol.

The problem with balance isn't so much in finding the right damage numbers to make each weapon competitive with each other; the raw damage numbers only change the speed at which damage is delivered, and making those numbers similar across the board just homogenizes everything (which is why we see this trend where everybody sticks to whatever configuration of weapons produces the highest/fastest damage output). As the OP points out, the fact that many sniper rifles are definitively outclassed by some handguns is all the proof necessary of this.

The real problem is in creating situations where it's appropriate to use certain weapons. I appreciate what Bioware has created with the weight limit system; I really like the idea of trying to balance firepower with ability cooldowns. But at the end of day, there's just no way to justify using certain weapons, and that's the real "shame" being addressed in this post. I hate having a big arsenal filled with cool weapons only to find that I keep 75% of the cooler ones on the shelf because they literally serve no purpose. 

All things being equal, I think Bioware has done a relatively decent job on the weapons, but I definitely want to see some improvements and I think posts like this one are a step in the right direction.

Modifié par Falcon365, 31 mars 2012 - 02:06 .


#23
Atheosis

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darkblade wrote...

I pretty much disagree with the viper and incisor being bad.

The incisor does need to be more ME2ish but its still not crap. Its a trash mob sweeper and it does its job excellently. The gun actually surprised me.

The viper can hit a little harder, but the real problem is the RoF take it up. Also the it needs a shorter range scope. and the carni/paladin need accuracy nerfs.


No matter how bad a gun may be, there's always someone willing to defend it.  It's a fascinating phenomena.  

And just so you know, you can sweep trash mobs with any gun.  That's not proof its actually viable or balanced.

#24
ManualReplica

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I have negative recoil on my Revenant.

Upgrade your attachments guys.

#25
Atheosis

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Falcon365 wrote...

Let me state it then.

This game is perfectly balanced. Any opinion you have on these guns is wrong. The Revenant and Evi especially don't need a buff. Leave the balance to the guys who made the game.


If the game were perfectly balanced we wouldn't see people using the same weapon/mod combinations ad nauseum. More accurately, we would actually see people using weird niche weapons like the scorpion and the arc pistol.

The problem with balance isn't so much in finding the right damage numbers to make each weapon competitive with each other; the raw damage numbers only change the speed at which damage is delivered, and making those numbers similar across the board just homogenizes everything (which is why we see this trend where everybody sticks to whatever configuration of weapons produces the highest/fastest damage output). As the OP points out, the fact that many sniper rifles are definitively outclassed by some handguns is all the proof necessary of this.

The real problem is in creating situations where it's appropriate to use certain weapons. I appreciate what Bioware has created with the weight limit system; I really like the idea of trying to balance firepower with ability cooldowns. But at the end of day, there's just no way to justify using certain weapons, and that's the real "shame" being addressed in this post. I hate having a big arsenal filled with cool weapons only to find that I keep 75% of the cooler ones on the shelf because they literally serve no purpose. 

All things being equal, I think Bioware has done a relatively decent job on the weapons, but I definitely want to see some improvements and I think posts like this one are a step in the right direction.



Much appreciated.  The point of this thread was really more to start a discussion about the guns that clearly fall short of what they are supposed to be, than a definitive list of the ways to fix them (though I do feel my ideas have merit obviously).  In my eyes there are probably many ways to make them all more viable.  And that's the main thing I want: for them to be made viable one way or the other.