494 réponses à ce sujet

[Caz Tirin]

Shaigunjoe wrote...
My biggest problem is that I get so tired of the complaint, 'nobody explains why they like it'.  That couldn't be a more inaccurate statement.  Just search the forums, myself and others have typed plenty on why we like the endings, why it made sense.

There are two solutions to this.

1. Explain why you like it.

2. Link to the post(s) where you explain it.

Don't evade the question by making claims like "so you can make fun of us/me?" or "so you can attack us/me?" or "so you can drag us/me down?"  Claiming you've given these explanations would be like me claiming I'm Casey Hudson posting on a second account.  If I made that claim, you would expect me to prove it instead of evading the question, wouldn't you?

Modifié par Caz Tirin, 31 mars 2012 - 08:16 .

[Caz Tirin]

double post ftw?

Modifié par Caz Tirin, 31 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[The Angry One]

You know, the funny thing is the endings are nowhere near as ambigious as you may think they are.

They're vague and give no closure, but that's not actually the same thing. The consequences of the endings are clear enough if you spend one minute researching the codex and know the world of Mass Effect. Everybody is going to die. Nobody in Sol will survive. Everybody on the Normandy will die. Everybody on every devastated planet cut off from desperately needed aid is going to die.

I'm not even talking about the mass relays going nova, though that's another issue that isn't addressed due to bad writing. Quite simply, the galaxy is doomed no matter what you do.

[Bob3terd]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...
http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/
There you go, a well thought out arguement on why the ending, artistically,  is actually fairly bad.

Please, that old thing?  The author couldn't even realize that ending the reaper cycle was returning with the elixer.

Also, he just presents a forumula, any engineer with half a mind knows the dangers of plugging and chugging.  Not only that, but most artist probably don't think much of adhearing to formula's anyway.

George lucas attributes the original star wars trilogy to that formula

[QwibQwibLover]

The Angry One wrote...

You know, the funny thing is the endings are nowhere near as ambigious as you may think they are.

They're vague and give no closure, but that's not actually the same thing. The consequences of the endings are clear enough if you spend one minute researching the codex and know the world of Mass Effect. Everybody is going to die. Nobody in Sol will survive. Everybody on the Normandy will die. Everybody on every devastated planet cut off from desperately needed aid is going to die.

I'm not even talking about the mass relays going nova, though that's another issue that isn't addressed due to bad writing. Quite simply, the galaxy is doomed no matter what you do.

Thanks to Shepard.......Amen

[Wolven_Soul]

Tazzmission wrote...

Velocithon wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...
The ending was not "objectively bad."

There are no "facts" when interpretting art.

Art is subjective. Your opinions are just that: opinions. You may think your opinions are facts because you feel strongly about them, but it still doesn't make them facts.

If there's anything you don't "get," it's apparently the difference between "subjective" and "objective" thought.

Oh look. One of THESE guys.

*cracks knuckles*

Video games are not art. Video games follow a storyline. That storyline can be flawed. The ending to ME3 is flawed. Art, as in paintings, doesn't have this. They can be neither right nor wrong and are MEANT to be viewed from multiple perspectives. Get that through your thick skull. Go it? Ok good.

The Angry One is dead on. What happened in the ending is bad. It contradicts EVERYTHING prior to that point. There's no two ways about this. This is a FACT. Not opinion. FACT.

Stop trying to be "cool" by going against the flow.

video games are art if you take the time to look it up dude

your only saying it isnt because of the ending and you know it

i think its really funny that the da2 crowd as mad as they were never went this far and said games arent art

I agree that video games are art.  But there are many different types of art, and different ways to view each one.  Art can be bad.  Plain and simple.  Take "Two Worlds".  That game was just plain bad. 

[Shaigunjoe]

Bob3terd wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...
http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/
There you go, a well thought out arguement on why the ending, artistically,  is actually fairly bad.

Please, that old thing?  The author couldn't even realize that ending the reaper cycle was returning with the elixer.

Also, he just presents a forumula, any engineer with half a mind knows the dangers of plugging and chugging.  Not only that, but most artist probably don't think much of adhearing to formula's anyway.

George lucas attributes the original star wars trilogy to that formula

Good thing he was able to redo them to get closer to his vision.

[Reorte]

Aurvant wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Clearly, if I liked the ending and others don't, then they didn't get it like I did. That's not passive aggressive; that's factual.

Factual?

People, like you, keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

My name is Commander Shepard. You killed my series. Prepare to die!

[Wolven_Soul]

Evil Minion wrote...


There are no "rules of literature."



I'll wait.

You have obviously never heard of anything like a plot diagram or the hero's journey.

[JPR1964]

The Angry One wrote...

You know, the funny thing is the endings are nowhere near as ambigious as you may think they are.

They're vague and give no closure, but that's not actually the same thing. The consequences of the endings are clear enough if you spend one minute researching the codex and know the world of Mass Effect. Everybody is going to die. Nobody in Sol will survive. Everybody on the Normandy will die. Everybody on every devastated planet cut off from desperately needed aid is going to die.

I'm not even talking about the mass relays going nova, though that's another issue that isn't addressed due to bad writing. Quite simply, the galaxy is doomed no matter what you do.

Quoted for truth (my truth at least)

Gratz to some people who liked the ending : I was hopping playing the game for at least 2 years, because of the mono ending (I don't care about different color, that means nothing) my me3 experience will be limited to 30 hours...

Worst ending ever IMO,

JPR out!

Modifié par JPR1964, 31 mars 2012 - 08:31 .

[Evil Minion]

Caz Tirin wrote...

1. Thank you for this.  It's more of an explanation than anyone else has given.  You accept it's ambiguous and you state that is why you like it.  That's one of the main points of the question we've been asking: "What did you 'get' about the ending?

Yes, it really comes down to personal preference. Either you like ambiguous endings or you don't. But I don't think they "work" in video games because video games are primarily visual.

Which is why I support RTME efforts to get a new ending. MOST people (that I know of) don't care for ambiguous endings to stories they paid $200+ for.

2.  I'm curious which things you don't see as plotholes.  I was going to give a list of several, but then I realized it might be something else entirely.

For example, Joker "running away." I don't think there's enough evidence for us to definitively conclude WHAT Joker was doing. He could've been "running away," but he could've had a thousand other intentions. We just don't know.

We can only assume (which is part of the problem). Some see this as a "plot" problem. I see it as a problem concerning sloppy visuals.

5. If that was they're aim, then I agree.  But even if that was their aim, we all spent 2.9 games with the focus being about the choices we made and how that would bring about the salvation of the galaxy (granted that salvation was implied, but it was implied HEAVILY and at every major choice).  At the last minute, Shepard is no longer able to stand up for him/her-self and tell Starbaby "Stick it!  We'll do this our way like we have from the start!" ??

Weeelllll.....

I've always been skeptical of the amount of "choice" we had in the ME trilogy. Most of my actions didn't seem to have a very big impact on the wider world. For example, if I choose to let the council die, then the only thing that happened was that the council came back, but with different voices and slightly different dialogue.

IMHO, the only thing we really had true "choice" over was our relationships and how we choose to respond to events. Everything else didn't seem to ultimately matter, so the end, wherein Shepard is presented with limited "choice," fell in line with my expectations..

Modifié par Evil Minion, 31 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[Reorte]

The Angry One wrote...

You know, the funny thing is the endings are nowhere near as ambigious as you may think they are.

They're vague and give no closure, but that's not actually the same thing. The consequences of the endings are clear enough if you spend one minute researching the codex and know the world of Mass Effect. Everybody is going to die. Nobody in Sol will survive. Everybody on the Normandy will die. Everybody on every devastated planet cut off from desperately needed aid is going to die.

I'm not even talking about the mass relays going nova, though that's another issue that isn't addressed due to bad writing. Quite simply, the galaxy is doomed no matter what you do.

It's not quite that bleak, but not too far off. Many, many billions are going to die (be it from starvation, civil war over the few resources, being stuck on a planet with no resources etc), but not everyone. Eventually societies will re-establish themselves from the current species instead of some other random bunch, probably sooner than waiting for new ones to pop up. I suppose that's why some people regard it as bittersweet (if just one step up from complete destruction is bittersweet instead of only marginally better than the most bitter imaginable).

Modifié par Reorte, 31 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[Evil Minion]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...


There are no "rules of literature."



I'll wait.

You have obviously never heard of anything like a plot diagram or the hero's journey.

"The Hero With A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell.

Literary theory.

Also known as a subjective interpretation of literature.

[Babyberry]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Evil Minion wrote...

There are no "rules of literature."

I'll wait.

You have obviously never heard of anything like a plot diagram or the hero's journey.

I think I get what they're trying to say, but I disagree with the statement. There are authors that are very good at their craft and can bend the rules/structure of the narrative to create a better told story. But there are also authors who attempt to do this and fall flat on their faces.

There's a reason there are rules that the majority of authors stick to when crafting a story-they work almost all of the time. Did Bioware take a risk that panned out for them in the end? I would say they failed, but that's just my opinion.

[Wolven_Soul]

Dava Flava wrote...

Let me try to explain something that applies to both the ME3 endings and how people interact on forums like this....

Communication, in any form, whether it's spoken, written, or otherwise, is only successful when the speaker/author's intended meaning is interpreted correctly by the listener/audience. If communication is not successful, then some sort of miscommunication has occurred. When someone doesn't "get it," that likely means that either the author's intention was not communicated effectively or that the audience misinterpreted the author's intention... or both.

That's the real issue here with the ME3 ending (and with the miscommunication around what "get it" could mean). And, it's probably a bit of both. While I enjoy the endings and think Bioware crafted a sound and fulfilling open-ended conclusion, it's clear many fans didn't see it that way.

I'm not trying to discredit their opinions, but if the anti-enders need some sort of explanation why the endings are adequate, all I can really offer as a solution is play through it again but try to keep an open mind. Ask yourself, "What if the endings don't suck?" I don't think hearing someone else's reasons for enjoying the ending will convince anyone that it was even ok.

I respect your opinion, but my mind was plenty open the first time around.  i did not like it then, and I would not like it a second time through.

[Reorte]

Evil Minion wrote...
Weeelllll.....

I've always been skeptical of the amount of "choice" we had in the ME trilogy. Most of my actions didn't seem to have a very big impact on the wider world. For example, if I choose to let the council die, then the only thing that happened was that the council came back, but with different voices and slightly different dialogue.

IMHO, the only thing we really had true "choice" over was our relationships and how we choose to respond to events. Everything else didn't seem to ultimately matter, so the end, wherein Shepard is presented with limited "choice," fell in line with my expectations..

There was always the expectation (or at least there was to me) that they would play out somehow later on, which is fair enough in the first two parts of the trilogy. The various outcomes of ME2 felt more different even if cinematically they were pretty much the same, and the consequences less (talking about how many survive rather than keep / destroy the Collector base).

Obviously it shouldn't be possible to make a decision back in ME1 that means you don't stand a chance in ME3 - that's just bad game design, letting people plug on for ages knowing that they will fail, but not letting them know fairly soon. The problem is that the way things panned out many people seem to feel that that's roughly what we've ended up with.

[Caz Tirin]

Evil Minion wrote...

2.  I'm curious which things you don't see as plotholes.  I was going to give a list of several, but then I realized it might be something else entirely.

For example, Joker "running away." I don't think there's enough evidence for us to definitively conclude WHAT Joker was doing. He could've been "running away," but he could've had a thousand other intentions. We just don't know.

We can only assume (which is part of the problem). Some see this as a "plot" problem. I see it as a problem concerning sloppy visuals.

That's what makes it a plot hole, though.  A couple of reasons why this is:

The Normandy was the spearhead of the fleet against the Reapers at Earth.  Why are they suddenly running anywhere that's not AT the Reapers?  Why are they running AWAY from the Space Magic?  The Normandy isn't in danger and if you have EDI in your team on the ground, she's not on board the Normandy (she's not anyway since your entire squad list is on the ground at the start of the last push).  Speaking of your entire squad being on the ground, how did any of them make it back on board to be stranded on some other planet?

Those are just some of the reasons that it's a plot hole.  The visuals are just showing the plot hole instead of having us read about it. 

[Saint Op]

I look foward to the Yahg -Krogan war in my universe....
Grandpa tell me another story about the shepaaaaa a naked Yahg hoard...chomp chomp....

[Evil Minion]

The Angry One wrote...

You know, the funny thing is the endings are nowhere near as ambigious as you may think they are.

They're vague and give no closure, but that's not actually the same thing. The consequences of the endings are clear enough if you spend one minute researching the codex and know the world of Mass Effect. Everybody is going to die. Nobody in Sol will survive. Everybody on the Normandy will die. Everybody on every devastated planet cut off from desperately needed aid is going to die.

I'm not even talking about the mass relays going nova, though that's another issue that isn't addressed due to bad writing. Quite simply, the galaxy is doomed no matter what you do.

Okay, sure.

[humes spork]

Babyberry wrote...

There's a reason there are rules that the majority of authors stick to when crafting a story-they work almost all of the time. Did Bioware take a risk that panned out for them in the end? I would say they failed, but that's just my opinion.

If you want to be blunt about it, you could make the argument BioWare set themselves up for massive failure the instant they decided to blend Lovecraftian horror into a traditional space opera, which are two categorically different genres with categorically different demands for characterization and plot resolution. And, rather than let one of the two genres fall by the wayside as a mere framing device for setting and theme, they carried both to the very end and resolved the conflict between the two the only logical (but not necessarily quality) way that could be done -- deus ex machina.

[Wolven_Soul]

METALPUNKS wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

METALPUNKS wrote...
It just shows how pathetic people are by accusing someone of trolling because they don't agree with it. Those same people don't deserve a good ending for that reason. You mean to us and can hash it out but you can't take it when we give it to you.

Interesting. Nobody's been "mean" here. We have asked for explanations and justifications with more substance than "you don't get it" and "it's over your head" and continually been accused of being unreasonable merely because we want you to make a case for the quality of the endings.
You yourself have been increasingly rude as time has gone by, and continually ignored any challenge to the few assertions you have made. Reflect upon your own attitude before criticising ours.

I'll admit I have been getting more and more angry. It's because I'm getting no respect. Oh and you people suck! Get over it. I know I need to. You just hate the fact that the ending is something you can't get. It bothers you so much that you have to be rude to me. Us few ending lovers can only take so much before we blow up. Some can handle it but I cannot. You make me sick to my stomach and many of you need to find yourselves spiritually. If I get kicked for that then let it be that. I won't know because in taking a break from all this bull crap and I'm going to play the heck out of a game that has one of the best endings ever written. You think the fans deserve better, after seeing everything I saw in the last 24 hours I think Bioware deserves more from their fans. You just threw them out when they didn't make this crazy elaborate ending. Sometimes this is the way it has to be, and that's a good thing.

Bioware deserves nothing from me when they advertised something they did not deliver on.

[MorSterling]

Dava Flava wrote...

Clearly, if I liked the ending and others don't, then they didn't get it like I did. That's not passive aggressive; that's factual.

Funny...as there is no logical point, that makes you?

[Zan_Vaelius]

Like I said while I like the ending as it is, I am eager to see what Bioware is going to do about the whole thing.
As to why I like the ending?
For me the journey of Paragon Shepard can be be seen as somewhat biblical. We have Shepard standing alone against the forces of Ultimate Evil (The Reapers) tempting sentient beings with promises of salvation in reality offering them only death and damnation (indoctrination and harvesting) with False Prophet Saren. Shepard stands almost alone with only few helpers (disciples -> Hell there were 12 of squad mates in ME2). We can see ME 2 as somewhat being similar to the Gospels -> Death and Rebirth. ME3 would be similar to John's Apocalypse with TIM being the Antichrist aiding the Devil (Reapers once again). Synthesis ending is both literally and metaphorically the rebirth of humanity. It also allows the peacebringer Shepard to end wars.

[humes spork]

Caz Tirin wrote...

Those are just some of the reasons that it's a plot hole.  The visuals are just showing the plot hole instead of having us read about it. 

The words "stealth ship" and "continuity of civilization" spring immediately to mind. It's not the galaxy-eating glaring franchise-destroying plothole people make it out to be, but neither is it terribly well exposited.

But then again, the way people on BSN are acting they'd claim the fact you can't hear or see Shepard breathe during the starbrat scene is a galaxy-eating, glaring, franchise-destroying plothole that renders the ending null and void and/or proof something else is going on that needs be theorized ad nauseum.

[AtlasMickey]

Yes, congratulations, BioWare.

You did a fine job, beginning to end. Please don't let all the sour grapes and wet blankets here get you down.