494 réponses à ce sujet

[QwibQwibLover]

Zan_Vaelius wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

Disappointed again

Every time I come to one of these threads I'm hoping for an explanation as to why the OP thinks the endings provide closure, why they're okay with our choices not mattering at all, or their opinions on the galactic dark age and the pointless Normandy scene

Still looking

A good ending doesn't have to provide closure.  The endings are open-ended, like a cliffhanger.  It's meant to encourage questioning, like what if...?  It's probably framed like that to leave the developers with lots of potential options to play with in future ME games.  Is that so bad? 

 

And it actually does allow multiple interpretations. We have the IT crowd, the Synthesis thing makes sense for me with my Biblical parallels thing (Couple posts above).

The Journey of Shepard and his mates were about fighting against all odds, rallying the Universe together for the ultimate battle! It was a good and entertaining Story about a Hero and his mates. Like LOTR with Spaceships!
So why mess up all that story whith religious bull****? 

[Wolven_Soul]

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

Yes, that is a plot hole.  Especially as we know that ships cannot land on a planet.  The only ones that can are the Reapers because of their massive mass effect drives.

And we know that Cortes was shot down, so he could not have shuttled them up there.

Modifié par Wolven_Soul, 31 mars 2012 - 09:01 .

[humes spork]

Babyberry wrote...

I do agree that when you mix two genres together like Bioware did, you have to be sure to give them equal importance in the series and it seems they didn't do that to the fullest they could have. But you have an important point, and I wonder what their outline of the series really looked like and how well they planned all of this?

Actually, their attempt to do precisely that is what probably, in part, led to what we got.

There is no such thing as a happy ending in Lovecraftian horror. The best thing you get is the protagonist scores a minor setback against the antagonist(s) and ends up living the rest of their short, pitiful life in an asylum for it. Shepard, for all his/her talk of Reapers and the cycle of extinction, ends up getting thrown in a mental hospital and doped to the gills until the Reapers return and eat everyone anyways...that's an ending consistent with Lovecraftian horror.

...but for the fact Mass Effect is at its heart a space opera. Space operas as a matter of genre definition demand no sadder than a bittersweet ending. One of those two genres had to go by the wayside, neither did, and the only way to reconcile that narrative conflict is by deus ex machina and nuke the whole thing from orbit in the process.

[Wolven_Soul]

Dava Flava wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

Disappointed again

Every time I come to one of these threads I'm hoping for an explanation as to why the OP thinks the endings provide closure, why they're okay with our choices not mattering at all, or their opinions on the galactic dark age and the pointless Normandy scene

Still looking

A good ending doesn't have to provide closure.  The endings are open-ended, like a cliffhanger.  It's meant to encourage questioning, like what if...?  It's probably framed like that to leave the developers with lots of potential options to play with in future ME games.  Is that so bad? 

 

It has to provide closure when they say it is going to provide closure.  I do not mind them leaving a bit of a cliff hanger that might lead to the next game in the series, but they have to adequately wrap up the current story arc...and that means closure.

[Wolven_Soul]

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

[Babyberry]

humes spork wrote...

Babyberry wrote...

I do agree that when you mix two genres together like Bioware did, you have to be sure to give them equal importance in the series and it seems they didn't do that to the fullest they could have. But you have an important point, and I wonder what their outline of the series really looked like and how well they planned all of this?

Actually, their attempt to do precisely that is what probably, in part, led to what we got.

There is no such thing as a happy ending in Lovecraftian horror. The best thing you get is the protagonist scores a minor setback against the antagonist(s) and ends up living the rest of their short, pitiful life in an asylum for it. Shepard, for all his/her talk of Reapers and the cycle of extinction, ends up getting thrown in a mental hospital and doped to the gills until the Reapers return and eat everyone anyways...that's an ending consistent with Lovecraftian horror.

...but for the fact Mass Effect is at its heart a space opera. Space operas as a matter of genre definition demand no sadder than a bittersweet ending. One of those two genres had to go by the wayside, neither did, and the only way to reconcile that narrative conflict is by deus ex machina and nuke the whole thing from orbit in the process.

Another good point. It makes me wonder, if Mass Effect would have been a novel rather than a video game, if the plot points could have been developed better due to having time to edit and revise the writing. You can only do that so much for a video game without running into budget/release date issues.

[Wolven_Soul]

[quote]Evil Minion wrote...


[/quote]

I agree.

That is a plothole.

It's why I thought Ghostdweeb was garbage. It would've been better to leave the Reapers as a race of sentient machines instead of cosmic puppets.



[/quote]

What is this?  We agree on something?  Woah...lol.  In hindsight I apologize if anything I said sounded hostile.  I am not honestly hostile, I am just...exuberant.

[AntonioA9011]

Is Casey Hudson paying people off now?

[Zan_Vaelius]

QwibQwibLover wrote...





The Journey of Shepard and his mates were about fighting against all odds, rallying the Universe together for the ultimate battle! It was a good and entertaining Story about a Hero and his mates. Like LOTR with Spaceships!
So why mess up all that story whith religious bull****? 

Magic of interpreting stories. You can interpret however you want as long as it makes sense. I'm not telling you in any way to interpret it that way because you have a right to interpret it however you want. There were however many people asking why we "Pro-enders" like the ending. Thus I have delivered. You are free to hate or love it as you see fit. 

Also who says that It cannot really be interpreted in many ways by the same person as long as they don't contradict themselves? Believe me It took me a while to see the parallels. And yeah I also see it as an epic story of a hero fighting in an apocalyptic war. 

Edit: Missed a t in It

Modifié par Zan_Vaelius, 31 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[Dava Flava]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

[humes spork]

Babyberry wrote...

Another good point. It makes me wonder, if Mass Effect would have been a novel rather than a video game, if the plot points could have been developed better due to having time to edit and revise the writing. You can only do that so much for a video game without running into budget/release date issues.

Well, the non-interactive nature of that genre would have done the intellectual property a boon for certain.

[T-0pel]

Dava Flava wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

Disappointed again

Every time I come to one of these threads I'm hoping for an explanation as to why the OP thinks the endings provide closure, why they're okay with our choices not mattering at all, or their opinions on the galactic dark age and the pointless Normandy scene

Still looking

A good ending doesn't have to provide closure.  The endings are open-ended, like a cliffhanger.  It's meant to encourage questioning, like what if...?  It's probably framed like that to leave the developers with lots of potential options to play with in future ME games.  Is that so bad? 

Yes it is the developers stated many times that they wont leave us with more questions than answers.

[piemanz]

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

I think this is the main difference between us and the people who don't like the ending. We fill the so called plot holes, where they refuse to even try and just want to be shown.

[Evil Minion]

[quote]Wolven_Soul wrote...

[quote]Evil Minion wrote...


[/quote]

I agree.

That is a plothole.

It's why I thought Ghostdweeb was garbage. It would've been better to leave the Reapers as a race of sentient machines instead of cosmic puppets.



[/quote]

What is this?  We agree on something?  Woah...lol.  In hindsight I apologize if anything I said sounded hostile.  I am not honestly hostile, I am just...exuberant.
[/quote]

Cool beans.

Internet can make for misinterpretation of other's intentions.

Anyway, Ghostdweeb (Jar-Jar of the ME world) was unecessary. "Battlestar Gallactica" had almost the same plot as ME trilogy and they didn't need the Ghostdweeb.

When they introduced The Borg Queen, she got pretty much the same reception as Ghostdweeb ("Where the heck did THAT come from??")

[T-0pel]

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

And that is the reason why it is a plot hole!!!

[Evil Minion]

piemanz wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

I think this is the main difference between us and the people who don't like the ending. We fill the so called plot holes, where they refuse to even try and just want to be shown.

.......which isn't unreasonable in a visual medium, like video games.

[Wolven_Soul]

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

Joker cannot land on the planet, thus he cannot pick them up himself.  We have been told that the only ships who can land on a planet are the Reapers because of their massive mass effect drives.  Cortez could not have picked them up in his shuttle, because he was shot down. 

[Evil Minion]

T-0pel wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

And that is the reason why it is a plot hole!!!

"Multiple possibilities" are not the same thing as "plotholes."

[Barict78]

I think at this point People who like the end are just posting about that to stir up trouble. but by the same token Retakers do that as well if u like it great good for u i envy u really cuz i cant like something that has no base in the game Lore and no makes no sense from a story telling standpoint and dont even bring up the plotholes and the way the catalyst railroads shepard into one of 3 choices. Shepard would neverdo what that little brat said period.

[Evil Minion]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

Joker cannot land on the planet, thus he cannot pick them up himself.  We have been told that the only ships who can land on a planet are the Reapers because of their massive mass effect drives.  Cortez could not have picked them up in his shuttle, because he was shot down. 

There were other shuttles on Earth at the time who could've done it.

And they could've fixed the shuttle Cortez was in.

[humes spork]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

Shepard was unconscious at the Conduit and onboard the Citadel for an unspecified amount of time.

It's confirmed in the context of the game Hammer was scrubbed.

Normandy, being a stealth ship and one of the few in the galaxy capable of actually eluding the Reapers, was ordered to take on as many Hammer survivors as possible and go into full retreat and go to ground.

Especially as we know that ships cannot land on a planet.  The only ones that can are the Reapers because of their massive mass effect drives. 

http://masseffect.wi...mp_Normandy.png 

HOLY CRAP INFILTRATOR REAPER INDOCTRINATION THEORY IS RIGHT!

Modifié par humes spork, 31 mars 2012 - 09:20 .

[Wolven_Soul]

piemanz wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

I think this is the main difference between us and the people who don't like the ending. We fill the so called plot holes, where they refuse to even try and just want to be shown.

First of all, we should not have to fill in such things.  That is the storyteller's job, not my own.  Secondly, I have said why it could not have happened.

[zarnk567]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

Joker cannot land on the planet, thus he cannot pick them up himself.  We have been told that the only ships who can land on a planet are the Reapers because of their massive mass effect drives.  Cortez could not have picked them up in his shuttle, because he was shot down. 

I agree with Wolven Soul.... and I'm not gonna Imagine a whole entire ending..... why would have I even spent the 60$ for something I can do at home for free.

[Barict78]

Evil Minion wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

Dava Flava wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Here, let me illustrate a plot hole (imagine this is a three-dimensional surface):


Joker is flying somewhere around Earth, without your team. (This is empty space here, because we have no idea what goes on in this space. You can think of it as a hole in the text.) Joker is now in FTL at least a few light years away, with all your teammates.

That's not necessarily a plot hole; it's just that some information is left unsaid.  It's like the gutter between panels in a comic - it may be empty space, but that's where the reader fills in the blanks with their imaginations.

It is a plot hole when there is not really any conceivable way that it could have happened.

You can't concieve anything to fill in that blank?  It's not inconceivable.  Maybe Joker hijacked the ship.  Maybe he recieved orders from Hackett.  Maybe EDI did it.  The possibilities are endless. 

Joker cannot land on the planet, thus he cannot pick them up himself.  We have been told that the only ships who can land on a planet are the Reapers because of their massive mass effect drives.  Cortez could not have picked them up in his shuttle, because he was shot down. 

There were other shuttles on Earth at the time who could've done it.

And they could've fixed the shuttle Cortez was in.

Dude ur just arguing for the sake of arguing Its a plot hole it is Physically impossible for ur ground team to have been Picked up RIGHT AFTER Harby blasts the hell outta everything. Do u really think they could get a shuttle into that hotzone u had to fight thru to get to the beam?? really? They Couldnt get a Effing Star Destroyer thru that in one piece much less a shuttle.

[Wolven_Soul]

Evil Minion wrote...



There were other shuttles on Earth at the time who could've done it.

And they could've fixed the shuttle Cortez was in.

True.  A little farfetched considering all the chaos going on, but true.  Maybe it is not a plot hole, but it requires a realllly big leap.