216 réponses à ce sujet

[ChuckieJ]

aimlessgun wrote...

ChuckieJ wrote...
I agree with you here both that we might not have wanted any of the options and that you might have chosen what you did for a wierd reason. 

...

Anyway, now that we have a pretty good idea we can think about how this thought process might go in a perfect world (even if this player we imagine doesn't know)

...

Fair point that if they wanted to 'indoctrinate the player' then this scheme might work for the 'average' player, even if it doesn't make sense for some people. 

I don't understand why you think the Reapers wanted you to Destroy, though. It's presented as the first option (with a downside of losing the Geth), then you are presented with two choices that are explained to be better.  

Just the hypothetical perspective of someone who doesn't trust the Star Child at all, and ignores what he says- looking past the Star Child at what is truly presented to you on the platform.

You see some sort of explodable thing, you see a beam of light, and you see some glowy lever looking dealies. If isn't there, you go for the glowy levers right? Because nothing else makes sense as a control input for a giant piece of technology. But Star Child shows up to trick you and confuse you. 

OK I totally see what you are saying now. Thanks. :happy:

[ChuckieJ]

pharsti wrote...

This, i understand many would prefer that to what we have, but its obvious the IT was not planned, and if they do somehow use it (doubt that, a lot) then all thatll do is leave me with a worse ending than what i have.

This makes no sense.

1) Watch the 20 minute video on youtube and if you aren't 99% convinced that it was planned, I'll eat my shorts.
2) How could waking up in London to finish the battle for realz possibly be worse than Space Magic?

Please think about what you are saying.

[Mcfly616]

CuseGirl wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

People just hate on indoctrination are just mad about the possibility of being fooled....I'll gladly pay for w.e end they have in store....if its what they had planned

This is the issue: everyone was fooled. Basically nobody thought "hey I'm being indoctrinated, let's resist indoctrination!". People had various thought processes about which decision they made, and each decision does not correspond to a certain thought process. 

For example, maybe I didn't trust Star Child, and clearly shooting at the crucible (destroy option) is ridiculous and it's what the reapers want. So I don't choose it, because I want to resist reaper influence. But according to IT, it doesn't matter that you made your choice with the mindset of resisting reaper influence...you're indoctrinated anyways!

Or in another example, maybe I think Synthesis is the best option, but I don't want to disintegrate my body, so I take Destroy for the chance at living, even though I think Synthesis is best for the galaxy. Logically just by agreeing that Synthesis is best, I should be indoctrinated, but nope! IT says that I break indoctrination anyways, even if I agree with the reapers. 

Add to the fact that most people didnt even want to choose any of the endings at all. 

THANK YOU!!! Anybody out here who claims they knew without ANY doubt they were fighting indoctrination once they woke up in the red lit hall of the Citadel is a liar. You took that scene at face value and then after you didn't get the ending you wanted, you had to shoehorn a bunch of little threads of story into a theory. If Bioware intended for us to fight indoctrination at the end, they would have explicitly said so in the game. And then they would have claimed it publicly. But they haven't. So I'm not buying it and giving Bioware an out on this terrible ending.

Umm waking up in red lit citadel? Ummm no...didn't see that scene...I saw him inhale oxygen in concrete rubble on Earth....is this what you're referring to?

And no....I was not mad at the end credits because I didn't take at face value..why? Because of the last scene....of Shep waking up...

I took it at face value, up until that point....and once I saw it I laughed...I thought it was great...

I was ready to finish the fight but a part of me didn't want this to be the end of Shepards journey...so I was happy knowing there was something more in store....

I don't claim my beliefs to be fact....they are simply my beliefs....I dont let my hopes and wishes determine my beliefs either....I take what I see from a neutral, questionable perspective, and then formulate what I believe....

Did the indoc theory open my eyes to some things that I didn't notice? Sure....but its not the reason I believe he was indoctrinated or unconscious....I came to that conclusion right after the last scene....


And you say IT fails because regardless of your indoctrination, you couldnt reject the choices at the end?

Well, can you control your subconscious? I know I can't....I mean sometimes I can wake up when a dream takes a bad turn.....but most of the time I'm just along for the ride....set on a course of weird events, in strangely familiar places, and while the illusion of choice presents itself, I'm hardly aware its a dream and go along with the path that's set before me...

IT works perfectly fine, in my perspective

[doodiebody]

I think it'll be kinda wasted if they have to add it as DLC. Would have been a hell of a twist thought.

Thinking back on it, it would have been pretty impressive, as they'd have effectively fooled me into betraying myself. When the god child was telling me all this crap, I was so confused. For some reason, I felt compelled to go with synthesis, mostly because the god child seemed to imply it was the best option. In hindsight, I have no clue why I'd trust him. In fact, I just followed in Saren's footsteps. Why on Earth did I do that?

When I started reading up on the IT, I got chills listening to the codex entry. "The resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions." Obviously not everybody would have had the same experience, but I would have been impressively floored.

[GME_ThorianCreeper]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I agree wholeheartedly with the Title of this thread

[Mcfly616]

Honestly....the people the have a problem with it being dlc...its nothing new....

They gave free content to people who bought ME2 new...the released Zaeed, firewalker missions etc....all for free through the Cerberus network....

Not saying that an ending dlc would be free....but if it was, it wouldn't be anything new

[Mystiq6]

I just realized that:
Saren tried Synthesis. It didn't work.
The Illusive Man tried Control. It didn't work.

It makes sense that Destroy would work, and, funny, it gives the best ending. Part of me wants to cling to the Indoctrination Theory because all the evidence we have now points to it and it makes the most sense. No one has presented a viable alternative.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 01 avril 2012 - 04:34 .

[Arivle]

Mystiq6 wrote...
I just realized that:
Saren tried Synthesis. It didn't work.
The Illusive Man tried Control. It didn't work.

And Shepard tried Destroy. It didn't work.

Finally I see BW's grand-scheme of ultimate conclusion. :-D Thank you! :-)

[Mystiq6]

Arivle wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...
I just realized that:
Saren tried Synthesis. It didn't work.
The Illusive Man tried Control. It didn't work.

And Shepard tried Destroy. It didn't work.

Finally I see BW's grand-scheme of ultimate conclusion. :-D Thank you! :-)

Huh? Shepard wakes up. It's the only one of the 3 in which he does, and I think we all agree Shepard waking up is preferable to him/her not. I would happier with another conclusion to the ending only because it would be a complete surprise but would be satisifed with indoctrination as well. As long as it's a complete ending and well done, I'm ok with whatever Bioware throws at us. A half-assed incomplete ending also didn't work.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 01 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[James9749]

The one problem I had with the ending was the contradiction and confusion with established lore, specifically with the "Star Child" as he's called.
Recall, if you will, the story of how the Protheans, after they were defeated, went back to the Citadel after the Reapers left, and Sabotaged the Keepers, who activated the Citadel Relay that let the Reapers through and destroyed the Protheans. If the Star Child was their the whole time, why didn't he stop the Protheans from sabotaging the Keepers, or why didn't the Star Child open the Relay, instead of letting Sovereign be destroyed while trying to open the Relay?
I have more points, and it can be found here on my post.

http://social.biowar.../index/10678672

Warning: it is a wall of text, so be warned.

[DOYOURLABS]

Agreed, Indoctrination Theory would make ME3's ending the best of all time IMO. The only problem is that the actual ending isn't seen, so it's all wild speculation after. Plus no closure. You have to most likely pay for it.

And at this point I'm not willing to give BioWare the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[Arivle]

Mystiq6 wrote...

Huh? Shepard wakes up. It's the only one of the 3 in which he does, and I think we all agree Shepard waking up is preferable to him/her not. I would happier with another conclusion to the ending only because it would be a complete surprise but would be satisifed with indoctrination as well. As long as it's a complete ending and well done, I'm ok with whatever Bioware throws at us. A half-assed incomplete ending also didn't work.

EDI: That was a joke. By "didn't work" I meant reception by players and/or personal satisfaction. :-)

[Mystiq6]

James9749 wrote...

The one problem I had with the ending was the contradiction and confusion with established lore, specifically with the "Star Child" as he's called.

This is the same problem I believe everyone has with the ending. Assuming you can still trust Bioware to be following its own rules for Mass Effect in the ending, Indoctrination is the most plausible explanation for it all.

[Mystiq6]

Arivle wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

Huh? Shepard wakes up. It's the only one of the 3 in which he does, and I think we all agree Shepard waking up is preferable to him/her not. I would happier with another conclusion to the ending only because it would be a complete surprise but would be satisifed with indoctrination as well. As long as it's a complete ending and well done, I'm ok with whatever Bioware throws at us. A half-assed incomplete ending also didn't work.

EDI: That was a joke. By "didn't work" I meant reception by players and/or personal satisfaction. :-)

Insert scene where EDI tries telling a joke and it backfires.

[TheNexus]

 This is going to sound ridiculous, but...

If the IT wasn't their idea, they should just lie and say it was and incorporate it.

The pieces fit so well, and it's to Bioware's advantage honestly.

[James9749]

Mystiq6 wrote...

James9749 wrote...

The one problem I had with the ending was the contradiction and confusion with established lore, specifically with the "Star Child" as he's called.

This is the same problem I believe everyone has with the ending. Assuming you can still trust Bioware to be following its own rules for Mass Effect in the ending, Indoctrination is the most plausible explanation for it all.

Still, even if they don't do the IT, I want everything at least explained, like with the confusion I mentioned above, and another dialogue option saying, "I stopped the Quarians and Geth from killing each other! You are wrong! Synthetics and Organics can coexist. This is living proof right in front of you."

[AwesomeDudex64]

 Too bad it's not correct cause I don't think the IT falls under "Clarification".

Bioware screwed up and wants to stick with that pathetic excuse of an ending.

[ninjaNumber1]

The Makr wrote...

I am a Pro-Ender because I believe the Indoc Theory.  I think it would be the greatest ending in video game history if they planned it that way and people thiught they were playing out the string, when really the player has darn near been indoctrinated, or at least experiencing it as closely as sheperd does.  It gets you literally into shepherd's most internal battle - fighting for control of his own mind.  How cool is that.  Part of the reason I'm not bitter is I got the best possible ending and I didn't read cheats to get it.  Now Bioware better make some more DLC (which I always buy from them anyway) and let me pull myself up out of the rubble and finish my business with the Reapers for real.  If that doesn't havppen then I won't get closure.

Also, as a working adult who acutally makes money $10 dlc supporting my fav developers all time is nothing to me.  Glad to support Bioware and will continue to do so.  Those who have a different opinion or cannot afford DLC I can empathize with that for sure though.

lol, yea I guess many game companies can make all their franchises in to best endings. Halo can make it such that chief had a dream at the begining of Halo 3. Gears of War 3 can make it such that Marcus is lying in a bed after escaping the ship at the begining etc. etc.

Like seriously, if what you say is true, any of the games that you have played could turn out to be BEST ENDINGS OF ALL TIME as long as the devs claim it was a dream/hallucination and redo the game/DLC.

[Mystiq6]

James9749 wrote...
Still, even if they don't do the IT, I want everything at least explained, like with the confusion I mentioned above, and another dialogue option saying, "I stopped the Quarians and Geth from killing each other! You are wrong! Synthetics and Organics can coexist. This is living proof right in front of you."

If Indoctrination is true, it would be ok for this not to exist as a dialog option because you can get around the mess by saying the only reason Destruction exists is because part of Shepard's mind is still trying to fight it. Your War Assets being high enough means Shepard has the willpower to throw off the completion of indoctrination. And then he wakes up again.

[James9749]

Mystiq6 wrote...

James9749 wrote...
Still, even if they don't do the IT, I want everything at least explained, like with the confusion I mentioned above, and another dialogue option saying, "I stopped the Quarians and Geth from killing each other! You are wrong! Synthetics and Organics can coexist. This is living proof right in front of you."

If Indoctrination is true, it would be ok for this not to exist as a dialog option because you can get around the mess by saying the only reason Destruction exists is because part of Shepard's mind is still trying to fight it. Your War Assets being high enough means Shepard has the willpower to throw off the completion of indoctrination. And then he wakes up again.

Still speculation, but you make a valid point. I was just saying if Bioware didn't do the IT theory. Whether they do or not, well, I guess we'll see in April, won't we?

Modifié par James9749, 01 avril 2012 - 04:50 .

[Corrik Ronis]

No it isn't. The indoctrination theory does not make it quality writing, it slightly improves things but it is still utter crap with multiple plot holes and inconsistencies.

Not to mention that both endings are undone by the fact that my Shepard can teleport and thus should have had no problems making it to the beam. Crap writing is crap writing.

[Reptilian Rob]

Actually, it's just a really lame copout for an unfinished game.

[kglaser]

Rob, it's all I have to cling to right now..

[Reptilian Rob]

kglaser wrote...

Rob, it's all I have to cling to right now..

It would be even worse if that were the case, "LOL we didn't finish the game on time! Here's the thing we did though!"

And they call it "artistic integrity."

Oh, that's a good one!

[DarthSyphilis59]

Though IT has its own holes, they are less than what we currently have, so I would be perfectly happy with it being true. As long as we get to finish the fight and have a satisfying conclusion.