1291 réponses à ce sujet

[ZiegenkonigIII]

Rolando93 wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

Rolando93 wrote...

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

kidbd15 wrote...

Rolando93 wrote...

kidbd15 wrote...

Rolando93 wrote...

If the Sol system did get obliterated then how do we see Shepard at the end of the destroy option. With that piece of evidence I think we all can infer that none of the other relay explosions wiped out any planets.

Do you see Shepard's face? If the citadel exploded, is he laying in rubble in space? On Earth? How did he get back to London without burning up in the atmosphere? 

Without seeing Shep's face, you can't know that is Shepard.  You can only speculate.  You might infer that it's him, but when you have to infer upon other inferences, that's not a very sound inference.

Actually here I am assuming. I assume that the game designers wouldn't just show us a random dying asthmatic. But It does seem that the area around whoever it is is pretty scorched up so it must have been hit by the Reapers or really anyone else. It doesn't matter because whoever attacked it must have used a mass relay to get there yet that planet was not destroyed in whetever explosion there was.

But let's be honest. It was Shepard.

heh... yea, it is... but you have to admit, an ending with so many inferences that need to be made, with so many things that question logic, isn't the greatest of endings... in fact, to me, it's pretty bad

I hate that they covered up this fact with the Lots of Speculation logic.  This isn't speculation its fumbling around in the dark.

I think they wanted to give the feeling like "This is what Shepard's reward is." He witnesses peace being brought to the glaxy and he goes knowing that the Reapers were stopped. Not what happens to every one of his friends.

There is no way that peace is brought to the galaxy.  If anything, having the relays destroyed would bring more suffering and conflict to the galaxy then ever before, with civil wars and conflicts waged against each other for food and fuel.  This isn't a happy galaxy it's a broken one.

It all depends on what ending you pick but imagiine how much fuel there is in the downed ships in Earths orbit. Some rations may be recovered. Perhaps they can find ways to artificially grow food. They did artificially rebirth a species of mounts for the krogan in a few months tops. Their fate is honestly whatever you personally make of it right now.

There would probably be less (recoverable) fuel in downed ships then the fuel you recover from destroyed fuel depos.  You have to remember that while they did artificially rebirth a species of mount for the krogan, this is when they had access to supplies, of which there is an extreme shortage.  It all boils down to resources, they simply don't have enough to make do on any level.

[xcomcmdr]

The Angry One wrote...

It's come up in a few discussions now and then from various people that, no matter what the consequences of the ending, the cycle is in fact broken, Reapers are no longer a threat and future races will be free of bad Reaper influence, being culled etc. etc.

There's one issue I have with this: I DON'T CARE.

I got into Mass Effect because I became invested into the galaxy, it's various races and the galaxy.
I don't care whether the Yahg are now free to expand across the galaxy and eat puppies or whatever it is they do.
I don't care that in 10, 20, 30,000 years there'll be some form of galactic society again and I certainly don't care what some senile old man has to say to his naive grandson 10,000 years in the future on some backwater world I don't know and don't give a damn about!

I care about this galaxy, as is. I care about Garrus, about Liara, about Kaidan, about Tali building her home on Rannoch, about Wrex raising his new children. I care about Jack and her students, about Conrad, about Bailey. I care about the Turians, the Asari, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogans.
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

That's what I care about, the characters I've gotten to know for 3 games. Not some nebulous, unseen and uneeded future. For that, you might as well let the Reapers win, because it amounts to exactly the same thing in the end. This isn't just about Shepard's unhappy ending. I want a happy ending, but even if it had to be a sacrifice, then I want that sacrifice to mean something other than some alien I don't care about not fearing the robotic squids from hell.

Quoted for truth (and blue babies) !

[Wabajakka]

I know. BW tried to make Shepard's sacrifice matter to far into the future. Totally leaving the present behind, thus missing out entirely on the whole "closure" aspect of an ending to a STORY not an entire UNIVERSE. I can't believe such incredible writers missed out on this.

[ZiegenkonigIII]

Orange Tee wrote...

I know. BW tried to make Shepard's sacrifice matter to far into the future. Totally leaving the present behind, thus missing out entirely on the whole "closure" aspect of an ending to a STORY not an entire UNIVERSE. I can't believe such incredible writers missed out on this.

Exactly.  It almost seems like there was something going on behind the scenes we didn't know about.

[Shaigunjoe]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Also, I wouldn't take much of what happened between Shep and starchild at face value, that wouldn't make any sense.

You believe those scenes were some type of vision, I think? Not sarcasm, I think I remember from another thread.

For the short of it. Personally I think the dialouge we are seeing between shepard and the kid is the story being told by the stargazer to the child.  That far in the future it probably has some moral to it that is extrapolated from whatever choice you picked.  That far in the future the effects of whatever choice Shep made would be simplified and be somewhat like space magic.

If you choose red, you basically decide to fire the crucible, killing all synthetic life (it seems to me that if the crucible was a weapon, that is exactly what it would do).

If you choose green, you come to some kind of compromise with the reapers that leads to a technical singularity being achieved throughout the galaxy.

Choose blue and basically strong arm the reapers to back off or you will kill them...or something (admittly, the blue one is the one I puzzle over more).  You bascially choose between segregation, integration or irradication.  But the story of what really happened has been colored and simplifyed overtime, and the story of The Shepard and the choices he/she made has built the moral framework of an entire civilization.

So yea, I don't quite agree with indoc theory, but whatever....ugg, so much for keeping it short.

[Konfined]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Konfined wrote...

I honestly don't recall that.  Please provide me with a link.

It could be hundreds and hundreds of pages back. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dig through threads to find a link. It's over and done with. I brought it up to make a point with something someone said.

You can't find what doesn't exist.  I've never told anyone that their personal opinion was wrong.  You've got me confused with someone else, playa.

Modifié par Konfined, 01 avril 2012 - 07:18 .

[TurambarEA]

Agree with you OP!

[a.m.p]

The Angry One wrote...

I care about this galaxy, as is. I care about Garrus, about Liara, about Kaidan, about Tali building her home on Rannoch, about Wrex raising his new children. I care about Jack and her students, about Conrad, about Bailey. I care about the Turians, the Asari, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogans.
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

That's what I care about, the characters I've gotten to know for 3 games. Not some nebulous, unseen and uneeded future. For that, you might as well let the Reapers win, because it amounts to exactly the same thing in the end. This isn't just about Shepard's unhappy ending. I want a happy ending, but even if it had to be a sacrifice, then I want that sacrifice to mean something other than some alien I don't care about not fearing the robotic squids from hell.

YES.

Nothing to add to this.

[Chaoswind]

+1

[Nathan_41]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Nathan_41 wrote...

I would certainly agree that that is a valid interpretation, but not the only one. You can still be a radical member of this debate without spamming the capslock key and the full range of English profanity. Konfined mentioned that he/she believes anyone who tries to tell people that they aren't entitled to voicing their opinions, and presumably also, calls the OP selfish for wanting something that he/she normally gets in a Bioware game, and I wouldn't exactly disagree with this interpretation either.

Which is funny, because in another thread awhile ago, Konfined told me I was wrong for having my opinion on the endings.

*shrugs*

There are bad ones on both sides, though, there are worse ones on the anti-ending side. From what I've seen since the game came out.

See, this is the problem; ignoring for a moment that you're extending the olive branch with one line while adding in the 'my side isn't as bad as yours' straight afterwards, saying one side is worse than the other is rather ignorant. The ones that are advocating for changes are trying to make Bioware react to their opinions. The ones that are firmly anti-change are simply sitting back and taking potshots at the people who's emotions are still running high, even though they themselves don't stand to lose anything if a compromise was made.

In a nut-shell, anti-endings people are required to be far more pro-active and passionate about this topic if they want to get what they want out of this situation, whereas the attitude of people who wouldn't be affected by it but is still telling them that their personal opinions are wrong is akin to kicking someone while they're down; its tough to maintain any sympathy after doing so.

I don't want this to seem like I'm making excuses in any form for people who straight up insult or even threaten people who don't agree with them, I'm most certainly not, but if you tell someone they're selfish for holding anti-endings opinions (and you did), then you should expect a heated response. Its still not justified, but you damn well should have known what you were doing.

EDIT:

HenchxNarf wrote...

Konfined wrote...

I honestly don't recall that.  Please provide me with a link.

It could be hundreds and hundreds of pages back. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dig through threads to find a link. It's over and done with. I brought it up to make a point with something someone said.

Then, no offense, but you shouldn't have brought it up.

Modifié par Nathan_41, 01 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[tanuki]

The Angry One wrote...

It's come up in a few discussions now and then from various people that, no matter what the consequences of the ending, the cycle is in fact broken, Reapers are no longer a threat and future races will be free of bad Reaper influence, being culled etc. etc.

There's one issue I have with this: I DON'T CARE.

I got into Mass Effect because I became invested into the galaxy, it's various races and the galaxy.
I don't care whether the Yahg are now free to expand across the galaxy and eat puppies or whatever it is they do.
I don't care that in 10, 20, 30,000 years there'll be some form of galactic society again and I certainly don't care what some senile old man has to say to his naive grandson 10,000 years in the future on some backwater world I don't know and don't give a damn about!

I care about this galaxy, as is. I care about Garrus, about Liara, about Kaidan, about Tali building her home on Rannoch, about Wrex raising his new children. I care about Jack and her students, about Conrad, about Bailey. I care about the Turians, the Asari, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogans.
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

That's what I care about, the characters I've gotten to know for 3 games. Not some nebulous, unseen and uneeded future. For that, you might as well let the Reapers win, because it amounts to exactly the same thing in the end. This isn't just about Shepard's unhappy ending. I want a happy ending, but even if it had to be a sacrifice, then I want that sacrifice to mean something other than some alien I don't care about not fearing the robotic squids from hell.

Angry One, I think you are my hero now!

[Priisus]

This so much!

[Total Biscuit]

Fully agree with OP.

This is why no amount of 'clarification' is going to fix the ending. It's just fundamentally broken and out of place with the rest of the Trilogy.

The big overaching plots were never what people bought these games for. The whole Conduit plot in ME1 was a mess that barely made sense, but you cared because you wanted to stop Saren, and save the people you met on the way.

ME2's main plot with the collectors was a half dozen missions at most, and even then, what made us care was the minor characters, Tali, the VS, Legion losing and rescuing the crew and in the Suicide mission bringing all the disparate threads and characters you'd spent the rest of the game with together as on coherent fighting force to blast the collectors to hell, and either work with or tell TIM to sod off.

Most of that game was a collection of character focused short stories. The main plot held it all together, but it was what was important, or made the game work.

Similarly, we don't care about the Reapers because they'll kill the concept of a galactic society. We care because they threaten the character we know, and what they care about. That's what we were fighting to save, and no matter what we do, we aren't able to do that, and that's never going to provide a sense of satisfaction, or an emotional payoff for our efforts.

Hell, would anyone care about the Reapers as muh as we do if it weren't for Sovereign and Harbringer? The Reapers as a faceless force of destruction would not have the same impact as one mocking you and actively trying to kill you because it takes the time to tell you about it.

I just hope Bioware does the right thing and gives us the choice to alter events at the end, and focus on the part of the game that actually matter, the small scale personal parts, not the high concept theoretical make believe.

[Fnork]

I completely agree with you here OP. For me closure could've been something to show the galaxy rebuilding to be a better place than it was before. It could show squadmates on their home world, helping to rebuild, anything. Instead we get to blow up icons to the series like the relays and the citadel effectively shattering the galaxy we worked to unite

Modifié par Fnork, 01 avril 2012 - 08:01 .

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

I ****ING HATE YAHG!

[ZiegenkonigIII]

Nathan_41 wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Nathan_41 wrote...

I would certainly agree that that is a valid interpretation, but not the only one. You can still be a radical member of this debate without spamming the capslock key and the full range of English profanity. Konfined mentioned that he/she believes anyone who tries to tell people that they aren't entitled to voicing their opinions, and presumably also, calls the OP selfish for wanting something that he/she normally gets in a Bioware game, and I wouldn't exactly disagree with this interpretation either.

Which is funny, because in another thread awhile ago, Konfined told me I was wrong for having my opinion on the endings.

*shrugs*

There are bad ones on both sides, though, there are worse ones on the anti-ending side. From what I've seen since the game came out.

See, this is the problem; ignoring for a moment that you're extending the olive branch with one line while adding in the 'my side isn't as bad as yours' straight afterwards, saying one side is worse than the other is rather ignorant. The ones that are advocating for changes are trying to make Bioware react to their opinions. The ones that are firmly anti-change are simply sitting back and taking potshots at the people who's emotions are still running high, even though they themselves don't stand to lose anything if a compromise was made.

In a nut-shell, anti-endings people are required to be far more pro-active and passionate about this topic if they want to get what they want out of this situation, whereas the attitude of people who wouldn't be affected by it but is still telling them that their personal opinions are wrong is akin to kicking someone while they're down; its tough to maintain any sympathy after doing so.

I don't want this to seem like I'm making excuses in any form for people who straight up insult or even threaten people who don't agree with them, I'm most certainly not, but if you tell someone they're selfish for holding anti-endings opinions (and you did), then you should expect a heated response. Its still not justified, but you damn well should have known what you were doing.

EDIT:

HenchxNarf wrote...

Konfined wrote...

I honestly don't recall that.  Please provide me with a link.

It could be hundreds and hundreds of pages back. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dig through threads to find a link. It's over and done with. I brought it up to make a point with something someone said.

Then, no offense, but you shouldn't have brought it up.

Damn, thanks for posting this.  I've been watching hench doing these things on multiple threads, I just didn't know how to put it into words.

[T-Zero]

Heck, I actually care about the galaxy as a whole, and I'm still left wanting by the endings. I really, really hope that Bioware doesn't just add a few deleted scenes and call it good 'nuff. I can't imagine that as being satisfactory.

Modifié par T-Zero, 01 avril 2012 - 08:11 .

[Nathan_41]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...


Damn, thanks for posting this.  I've been watching hench doing these things on multiple threads, I just didn't know how to put it into words.

Thank you, but I've spoken to Hench privately and I don't think its fair to act like he/she is the only one who may have forgotten to keep civil in this topic. Emotions are running high and everyone's a little heated about this issue. People have been unfair on both sides, I think. Remember 101ezylonhxeT?

Modifié par Nathan_41, 01 avril 2012 - 08:19 .

[MystEU]

The Angry One wrote...

It's come up in a few discussions now and then from various people that, no matter what the consequences of the ending, the cycle is in fact broken, Reapers are no longer a threat and future races will be free of bad Reaper influence, being culled etc. etc.

There's one issue I have with this: I DON'T CARE.

I got into Mass Effect because I became invested into the galaxy, it's various races and the galaxy.
I don't care whether the Yahg are now free to expand across the galaxy and eat puppies or whatever it is they do.
I don't care that in 10, 20, 30,000 years there'll be some form of galactic society again and I certainly don't care what some senile old man has to say to his naive grandson 10,000 years in the future on some backwater world I don't know and don't give a damn about!

I care about this galaxy, as is. I care about Garrus, about Liara, about Kaidan, about Tali building her home on Rannoch, about Wrex raising his new children. I care about Jack and her students, about Conrad, about Bailey. I care about the Turians, the Asari, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogans.
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

That's what I care about, the characters I've gotten to know for 3 games. Not some nebulous, unseen and uneeded future. For that, you might as well let the Reapers win, because it amounts to exactly the same thing in the end. This isn't just about Shepard's unhappy ending. I want a happy ending, but even if it had to be a sacrifice, then I want that sacrifice to mean something other than some alien I don't care about not fearing the robotic squids from hell.

So the wrapping up of the entire premise that every Shepard has been fighting for throughout 3 games now is just completely moot to be resolved? The galaxy, characters, and experience is what's at stake. It's the entire substance of ending the cycle and allowing the galaxy to continue forging its own path -- not the path of the Reapers. While I agree that these are all aspects that have made the series so beloved by many fans, and so engrossing over the course of many years, that assessment towards the conclusion of the only major story point that's tied all 3 games together is so totally missing the point it's not funny. Good points from a feedback and "why I love the Mass Effect series" stand-point, but absolutely terrible points in response to just the ending specifically.

Modifié par MystEU, 01 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[HenchxNarf]

This issue isn't as black and white as it appears to be. I understand that people get up in arms about their opinions, we all do. And sometimes it gets out of hand. The OP has the right to their opinion, whether we like it or not.

[Nathan_41]

MystEU wrote...


So the wrapping up of the entire premise that every Shepard has been fighting for throughout 3 games now is just completely moot to be resolved? The galaxy, characters, and experience is what's at stake. It's the entire substance of ending the cycle and allowing the galaxy to continue forging its own path -- not the path of the Reapers. While I agree that these are all aspects that have made the series so beloved by many fans, and so engrossing over the course of many years, that assessment towards the conclusion of the only major story point that's tied all 3 games together is so totally missing the point it's not funny. Good points from a feedback and "why I love the Mass Effect series" stand-point, but absolutely terrible points in response to just the ending specifically.

I can't speak for TAO, but I don't think that its that defeating the Reapers is a moot point, rather its that the only method Bioware gave us seems to ignore the main attraction of the series; the characters, their relationship to the player and the variable nature of player choice throughout the series.

If the only way that victory can be won is to do so without any mention, involvement or satisfying closure for the characters that players came to love throughout the trilogy, then many players don't really care that they won at all. The strongest attraction of Bioware games has been ignored in favour of railroading the players into a choice uninfluenced by your actions thus far, which discards the fate of the current cycle's residents in favour of the next, which in turn you were never given any attachment to. And that just doesn't feel like a win to many people.

Modifié par Nathan_41, 01 avril 2012 - 08:40 .

[Megachaz]

Agree 100%

Mass Effect has always been about the characters.  Hell, a good 80% percent of the main missions in ME2 had nothing to do with the Collectors or the Reapers.  They had to do with the individual characters.

In ME3, the main missions didn't emotionally affect us because Palaven was burning, or because the genophage was cured, or because the geth-quarian war was over.  None of that would have mattered to the player.  It mattered because Garrus was born in that burning orange patch, because Wrex can have children and Mordin got the chance to fix his mistake, because Tali could build her house on the homeworld and Legion freed his people.  Each characters story wraps up.  That's why the ending just falls apart.  We go from fighting for our friends to hearing a philosophical argument from a character we don't even know.

Shepard's story doesn't feel like it ends because Shepard is defined by the people around her.  She loves Liara, bros out with Garrus, watches Tali grow from a teenager to an admiral, and, hell, she even goes to talk to Vega every once in a while, but just to stare at his lats.  The ending says, "No.  That's not what Mass Effect is about.  Mass effect is a pseudo-philosophical argument in which you must accept one of your opponents three arguments.  No thinking for yourself allowed."

The Bioware writers have proven that they know what grips the players.  That just makes the ending all the more confusing.

[Srefanius]

Agree to OP.

This thread started over night for me and over 30 pages already?