1291 réponses à ce sujet

[nicksmi56]

@Dean_the_Young But that's one of the huge problems with the ending! We get NOTHING. We're forced to imagine what happens. The ploholes only make it worse since they blatantly contradict things that have come before. See all the different theories people come up with? Nobody knows WHAT the heck happened! In essence, we didn't even get an ending

[Dean_the_Young]

alx119 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
-snips lots of garbage-

Since you're clearly determined to project the worst and deny all possiblities that would satisfy you, what would it matter?

The ending doesn't project any real optimism after that. Following Mass Effect's established lore everything leads to a very very dark future for all those races. Including extinction of the life in whole planets, the fleets stranded on Earth, and that's being the most optimistic, because everything points out that the Mass Relays went supernova and there's no creature alive in the universe.

Except the lore doesn't claim that, because the Mass Relays didn't go supernove: they went Crucible. An uncontrolled explosion is a fundamentally different process from a controlled process.

The claim that all relays breaking under any condition doesn't come from the lore: it was created by people like you, despite the blatant narrative cues and explicit visuals showing the different situations.

You are being delusional by believing that everything can be fine and dandy after all the destruction the damn crucible causes. And, again, you are being delusional if you think that for the crew of the Normandy, which is composed by different alien cultures btw, can survive in a planet just because it's got green in it. A clear proof that a planet needs more than green to sustain varied life is in ME1 with the toxic planets, and ME2 in Jacob's loyalty mission.

Yet their life was sustained. Besides which, you're missing a very significant point:

Narrative cues.


The weight of all the symbolism in the ending scene is that 'it's a new day for the galaxy and life will go on.' Crashing on a life-destroying planet wouldn't correlate.

You can speculate that BioWare's intentions were to leave everything fine and dandy, and I won't disagree. But it's not factual, and again, following the lore of the game, the most probable thing is quite the opposite as optimism. 

What's not factual is the presumptions of utter death either.

It's an open-ended ending. It is your choice to project what you will on it. If you go with the rather blatant cues, then you'd recognize author intent is that people will survive. If you insist on demanding the worst possible situation for yourself, that is your perogative.

But that perogative is your choice, not one forced upon you.

[Dean_the_Young]

nicksmi56 wrote...

@Dean_the_Young But that's one of the huge problems with the ending! We get NOTHING. We're forced to imagine what happens.

You're using a medium that has a finite length and are forced to imagine what happens after the last words?

Say it ain't so.


Really, even the much lauded Dragon Age Origin powerpoint slide show was very vague and forced people to imagine how they occured.

The ploholes only make it worse since they blatantly contradict things that have come before. See all the different theories people come up with? Nobody knows WHAT the heck happened! In essence, we didn't even get an ending

People know what happened, they just don't want to accept it. There's a difference between the actual plot gaps (how companions got back on the Normandy) and the logical fallacies that go into the Indoctrination Theory.

You can certainly argue it's a bad ending, but there's more than enough basis to put together what happened. Shepard chose the ending of his choice. The relays broke, but the galaxy itself continues to live. The effects of the Catalyst will shape how the galaxy developes and reconnects in a new age of exploration and rediscovery.

[Keithhy]

Do you remember your first time on Illium, looking out over the horizon, and seeing the hubbub of life in the markets? The flying cars, the relays, the melting pot of species, the Citadel: this is the world I loved.

If the only reason I'm so invested in the ME series - other than the absolutely amazing characters - is gone, then why the hell do I care anymore?

There's a fifty minute clip on YouTube, showing all the squaddie deaths, in order, concluding with the ending. Strangely, the suddenly becomes much easier to accept, because you can't bring yourself to care anymore. Contrast that to how you feel after finishing the game having done everything right, and you understand why we're upset.

Modifié par Keithhy, 01 avril 2012 - 02:16 .

[savionen]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This is quite patently absurd. They aren't the focus of the game's content, but the game clearly guides us towards our own development of the issues. Even if we never are presented with it, surely we are expected to imagine that Garrus is actually a bad-ass cop when Shepard isn't around, rather than than a bombastic sycophant. We fill in with our mind's eye Thane's grief when his wife died. We imagine what the Reapers have done to others even in ME1 and ME2. We put together how the squadmates actually interacted in ME2, rather than take at face value that most of them never saw a word to eachother.

That's because Garrus and Thane gives you enough information to believe them. The player most likely has no reason to doubt Garrus or Thane. You have to take most of the story at face-value, in any video game, otherwise why are you even listening to their story?

Otherwise, go play a sandbox MMO and make up your own story.

[The Spamming Troll]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

When Javik, who's goal it was after the war was over was to return to the graves of his comrades adn find peace is now trapped on a stupid jungle planet and never able to leave YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

i think the problem starts with having a PROTHEAN sqaudmate, who happens to be entirely uninteresting.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobbyTheI wrote...


Yes, I may have said it somewhere before, but the real problem with trying to find a bright side in the ME3 ending is that it basically forces you to become a fanfic writer.

So does the dark side, but that hasn't stopped anyone before.

Nor has the fact the romances are pretty limited, the interactions with squadmates limited to very few conversations, and the interactable galaxy much smaller than implied.


You've always been a fanfic writer in your head while playing Mass Effect.

If you take what the ending gives you at face value, using only the lore established up to this point, then the ending is utterly depressing.  Joker and your friends running away for no apparent reason, stranded on an unknown planet in the middle of nowhere with food that several of the squadmates can't eat, and the explosion of the mass relays destroying everything in the star systems they're in.

Except the established lore doesn't establish that.

There's an absence of evidence for Joker's flight, but not evidence of absence.

You don't know what planet the Normandy crashed on, you were not told it was an unknown planet in the middle of nowhere.

You were outright shown that the Relays breaking was distinct from the Arrival supernovas.




For someone who claims to revolt against writing fanfiction, you're already doing it.

And any justifications to make it less depressing (A replacement for the convenient travel provided by the relays, an unseen colony on the jungle planet, a "different kind of explosion") all require you to introduce things into the storyline that weren't in the actual game.  In essence, you're writing your own fanfic to justify why the ending isn't extremely depressing.

The different kind of explosion was canonical the moment you compared the Arrival explosion (a Mass Relay producing a white all-destructive explosion after being hit with a meteor) with what happened in the ending (the relays releasing the non-white fields at FTL velocities which we say leave organics, ships, and planets alive).

[pistolols]

lol @ i don't CARE about the series' ultimate goal!

i wanted to see shepard and his/her LI settle down and have a family WAHHHHHHHHH

i wanted to know what was happening with all the slave traders on illium and drug trafficing gangs on Omega WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Dean_the_Young]

savionen wrote...

That's because Garrus and Thane gives you enough information to believe them.

Only if you project that, among other things, that they're being honest with you. You're already extending the mental fill-in.

The player most likely has no reason to doubt Garrus or Thane. You have to take most of the story at face-value, in any video game, otherwise why are you even listening to their story?

If you take the narrative at face value, Garrus didn't do anything but talk. We had no videos showing him doing any of the things he claimed. The moment we accept that what he says is true, we begin imagining things the game never showed us and writing our own mental fanfiction to fill in the blanks off of a base line.


Which is perfectly fine. It's a standard of the genre. It's also one that applies to the endings, and even applies to the DAO power-point epilogues many people claim to want. We project whether the Warden who chases after Morrigan stays on the trail, or gives up after a week. When we're told Leliana went back to Orlais, we imagine under what circumstances and in what way.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 avril 2012 - 02:28 .

[phantomdasilva]

I'lll just say that establish lore is that a mass relay exploding wipes out the solar system

Now is it possible that there could be other type of Mass relay explosion that doesn't do that. Sure there is but no one mentions that in the narrative or in the canon of the mass effect universe. The event that a mass relay explodes that wipes out the solar system is 1. The event that a mass relay explodes that doesn't is zero. So when we see the mass relay explodes, do we assume that it's the same explosion that we see in arrival or do we assume that it's a completely new explosion created by the crucible that was never mention in the narrative? Sure they look different but there is no exlpanation on the difference in colour has on the exloded relay.

I'm sorry but most interpretation of plot of any fiction will assume the precedent happens first unless stated otherwise. Because in the end you are just doing the writing for the team and covering up gaps in narrative (which by the way is the definiton of plot holes. Even accepting it was different type of explosion, Commander Shepard should have scrutinised the catalyst immediately upon hearing about it instead of trusting the catalyst that it would be a benevolent explosion. After all this catalyst did control the reapers and was responsible for mass genocide, this could well be a trick to get Shepard do the work for the reapers.

I'll also state that using "author's intent" is a troublesome way to interpret things we see on screen. Sure the author intended for all those people to survive and have prosperous lives. However the difference between good writng and bad writing is to be able to make your author intent be the same as the in universe explanation. So what we see on the screen matches what the author is intending.

There are serious doubts to the survival of the fleet as shown on screen. Could they get better, yes in fact you could tell a great story about how these fleets can survive despite the odds. Nevertheless there are no answer and the only way we can find positive answer to the situation the fleet is in, is creating story lines and sequals in our head and doing the job of the writers.

If there was a scene recognising the trouble the fleet is in but then have them talk about plans for them to return home, that would have left the series on a far more hopeful note instead of leaving people out of the loop. Hell if Bioware did that, they can easily make a killer DLC about the journey home as well.

Modifié par phantomdasilva, 01 avril 2012 - 02:30 .

[pjotroos]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What makes Shepard more than that is you. Your participation. You fill in the blanks: why does Shepard feel this way? What makes Shepard tic? What does Shepard really feel that can't be captured in a few hundred lines of dialogue?

Shepard is a tabula rosa which you fill in.

And this goes across the Mass Effect universe, because the Mass Effect universe is big.

Right, I won't quote all of it, this is the crucial bit. Everything above that quote, you're basically right. We roleplay Shepard. He's our vehicle in the story. We see the universe through his eyes. You've got that part right. On everything else, I completely disagree.

We do not roleplay the Mass Effect universe. We do not make choices and think for the whole universe. Characters such as Garrus, Aria, or even entire krogan race can be altered by the player - but only through the action we make as Shepard. It's our part as a player to make decisions as -  and put some personality in - the Commander Shepard. How everything else reacts to it is down to the game master. Bioware is game master for this story. If you were playing standard pen & paper RPG, and asked GM what happened at the end of the game you played, you would never expect him to answer with "You tell me". It just doesn't work that way - and yet Bioware did just that.

[Dean_the_Young]

pjotroos wrote...

We do not roleplay the Mass Effect universe. We do not make choices and think for the whole universe.

Of course you did. What do you think the difference in the Big Choices was? The game never gave you an encyclopedia of the difference between Feros surviving or not. The game never spent much time on the difference in interactions between a Renegade Council's galaxy in which Humans are viewed with suspicion, and the Paragon Council. When the Rachni lived, we were never told to think that the Asari Ambassador was the one and only time that the Rachni interevened in pirates, we were left to imagine what else they did.


Every Big Decision in the game was an exercise in player participation in visualizing the galaxy at large.

Characters such as Garrus, Aria, or even entire krogan race can be altered by the player - but only through the action we make as Shepard. It's our part as a player to make decisions as -  and put some personality in - the Commander Shepard. How everything else reacts to it is down to the game master. Bioware is game master for this story. If you were playing standard pen & paper RPG, and asked GM what happened at the end of the game you played, you would never expect him to answer with "You tell me". It just doesn't work that way - and yet Bioware did just that.

The fundamental chore of every game masters is to give players only what its needed to start visualizing the rest, not to spell out every detail for them. Game masters who give the players the tool to build the world keep a game moving: game masters who try the the later never get past the first empty room.

[savionen]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

savionen wrote...

That's because Garrus and Thane gives you enough information to believe them.

Only if you project that, among other things, that they're being honest with you. You're already extending the mental fill-in.

The player most likely has no reason to doubt Garrus or Thane. You have to take most of the story at face-value, in any video game, otherwise why are you even listening to their story?

If you take the narrative at face value, Garrus didn't do anything but talk. We had no videos showing him doing any of the things he claimed. The moment we accept that what he says is true, we begin imagining things the game never showed us and writing our own mental fanfiction to fill in the blanks off of a base line.


Which is perfectly fine. It's a standard of the genre. It's also one that applies to the endings, and even applies to the DAO power-point epilogues many people claim to want. We project whether the Warden who chases after Morrigan stays on the trail, or gives up after a week. When we're told Leliana went back to Orlais, we imagine under what circumstances and in what way.

There's still no reason to distrust Garrus or Thane, there's nothing in the narrative that proves that. This is a sci-fi RPG. There's no foreshadowing or hinting that Garrus is a psychopath. There's no reason to distrust him.

Something like the horror genre is different. You go in knowing that anybody could be lying to the main character.


I disagree that drawing conclusions is making mental fanfiction. Garrus said that he was a renegade cop. He gives me enough information to believe he's a renegade cop. I'm not sitting there thinking of 30 different scenarios of his renegade cop life. If Bioware felt that if some of his adventures were important then Garrus would talk about them, like Sidonus.

[Dean_the_Young]

phantomdasilva wrote...

I'lll just say that establish lore is that a mass relay exploding wipes out the solar system

Now is it possible that there could be other type of Mass relay explosion that doesn't do that. Sure there is but no one mentions that in the narrative or in the canon of the mass effect universe.

Hacket does on a number of occassions, on how the Crucible is meant to direct energies that could otherwise destroy us.

The event that a mass relay explodes that doesn't is zero.

The Citadel/Crucible effect on the immediate surroundings, including Earth.

So when we see the mass relay explodes, do we assume that it's the same explosion that we see in arrival or do we assume that it's a completely new explosion created by the crucible that was never mention in the narrative?

Except it was: the description of the choices that we see the relays fulfill.

Sure they look different but there is no exlpanation on the difference in colour has on the exloded relay.

The nature of the use of the energy in the relay.

I'll also state that using "author's intent" is a troublesome way to interpret things we see on screen. Sure the author intended for all those people to survive and have prosperous lives. However the difference between good writng and bad writing is to be able to make your author intent be the same as the in universe explanation. So what we see on the screen matches what the author is intending.

Authors can also leave means for the readers to reconcile the intent and the presentation.

[translationninja]

you know the funny part is it's been about a month now, and I still have this "WTF JUST HAPPENED???" feeling whenever I think of ME3...

[EnerPrime]

phantomdasilva wrote...

I'lll just say that establish lore is that a mass relay exploding wipes out the solar system

No. Established lore is that when a mass relay is hit by a small planetoid, all of the energy contain in the relay's eezo core is released in an uncontrolled, system destroying fashon. This is what we see happen in Arrival.

In the ending, we see that same energy that destroyed a system released in a different way. That giant beam the relay fires is where all the enrgey that would have wiped out the system goes. The part that explodes is just the rest of the relay without the core. Arrival, the very lore you insist is relevant, makes it very clear that the giant eezo core in a relay is the system destroying part, not all that metal stuff around it. The explosion of a relay without a core is just the same as any other space station exploding.

I think the endings are ****, but assuming the ending relay destruction is the same as getting hit be a gian freaking asteroid is really just graping at straws.

[Dean_the_Young]

savionen wrote...

There's still no reason to distrust Garrus or Thane, there's nothing in the narrative that proves that. This is a sci-fi RPG. There's no foreshadowing or hinting that Garrus is a psychopath. There's no reason to distrust him.

Right, but you're missing the point since that was never in dispute:

Whether we believe Garrus or not, we are the ones who imagine what form it took. The game never gave it to us.

It's not a question of whether the character is credible, it a question of whether the game showed us what happened or left it to mental fanfiction. Mass Effect has continually left it to mental fanfiction from the start.

I disagree that drawing conclusions is making mental fanfiction. Garrus said that he was a renegade cop. He gives me enough information to believe he's a renegade cop. I'm not sitting there thinking of 30 different scenarios of his renegade cop life. If Bioware felt that if some of his adventures were important then Garrus would talk about them, like Sidonus.

But if you visualize one thing on the adventure you did know happened but never saw, you're still doing fanfiction. Fanfiction isn't just creating new scenarios: it's also filling in referenced scenarios. Like, say, any visualization of Sidonis not explicitly shown in the game.

The only interaction in the game between Sidonis and Garrus we see is the one in which Garrus is about to shoot Sidonis. Everything else is mental fanfiction, because we're creating something that wasn't provided.

[jonal11]

Well said OP! I agree!

Hold The Line!

[savionen]

@Dean

If you feel so strongly about imagining what happens in the story, then what's wrong with the bleak view of the ending so many have? That everything ends in death and gloom?

[Missy_MI]

Just wanted to say I agree with the OP.  After ME3 was over, I literally lost sleep for a few days wondering what happened to Garrus, whether or not Wrex and Eve ever had children, or if any of the fleet trapped in Sol could make it back to their homeworlds.

Not to mention everyone on the Citadel.  After three games, we barely spent any time on Earth.  Emotionally, the Citadel felt more like 'home' to me.  To just throw away Bailey, Dr. Michel, the counsel, Kolyat... the list is endless, well that hurt.

I don't think a defeated and depressed atmosphere is quite what BioWare was going for at the end of ME3.  But that's exactly how a lot of us felt.  People can argue that we *shouldn't* have felt that way, but we *did*.  It's not 'failing to recognize artistic vision', it's just pure reaction.  And I don't think it's the reaction that was intended.

[VendettaI154]

Agreed. The entire series is about the current cycle and the people, races and characters in it. My care-o-meter is pretty low regarding what happens after our cycle. Let me know what happened to OUR cycle, is it too much to ask?

[pistolols]

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I WANTED BIOWARE TO DO LIKE THEY DID WITH ME2 WHEN WE GOT TO SEE ALL THE HUMAN COLONIES WERE SAFE AND THEY THANKED COMMANDER SHEPARD WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

oh, wait...