1291 réponses à ce sujet

[Velocithon]

alx119 wrote...

General User wrote...

alx119 actually wrote this...to Dean!

You clearly don't have that much of an investment or regard in the Mass Effect series, since you value it's concepts so poorly.

  To quote Bugs Bunny "he don't know [him] very well, do he?"

Well I don't doubt his knowledge of the Mass Effect world, but his investment in them. More concretely his emotional investement. Bringing in real life rationality and logic to the game is good if you want to postulate that the endings had an intention behind and followed the general story structure, but within the in-game's rationality and logic it made absolutely no sense and everything was left without a simple explanation, leaving people to speculate about literally everything. Plus very out of character. 

This.

I've mentioned before and I say it again. I really think a lot of the pro-enders are people who have not played the entire trilogy, or just bought ME3. Either that, or if they did play it all they simply did the main quest line and little else.

These are NOT the people who've invested in multiple replays of different paths with differnent classes. These are not people who actually grew fond of certain characters and, who after every missions no matter how large or small, ran around the Normandy talking to everyone they could to hear what they had to say about it.

Pro-enders are people who, to put it in an analogy, swim in shallow water. All they see is sand and rocks. The hardcore fans (anti-enders) are the deep sea explorers who see its beauty.

Modifié par Velocithon, 01 avril 2012 - 04:43 .

[Dendio1]

The Angry One wrote...

It's come up in a few discussions now and then from various people that, no matter what the consequences of the ending, the cycle is in fact broken, Reapers are no longer a threat and future races will be free of bad Reaper influence, being culled etc. etc.

There's one issue I have with this: I DON'T CARE.

I got into Mass Effect because I became invested into the galaxy, it's various races and the galaxy.
I don't care whether the Yahg are now free to expand across the galaxy and eat puppies or whatever it is they do.
I don't care that in 10, 20, 30,000 years there'll be some form of galactic society again and I certainly don't care what some senile old man has to say to his naive grandson 10,000 years in the future on some backwater world I don't know and don't give a damn about!

I care about this galaxy, as is. I care about Garrus, about Liara, about Kaidan, about Tali building her home on Rannoch, about Wrex raising his new children. I care about Jack and her students, about Conrad, about Bailey. I care about the Turians, the Asari, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogans.
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

That's what I care about, the characters I've gotten to know for 3 games. Not some nebulous, unseen and uneeded future. For that, you might as well let the Reapers win, because it amounts to exactly the same thing in the end. This isn't just about Shepard's unhappy ending. I want a happy ending, but even if it had to be a sacrifice, then I want that sacrifice to mean something other than some alien I don't care about not fearing the robotic squids from hell.

Good thing the protheans didnt feel this way or the keepers would have opened the relays for the reapers back in me1.

Good thing Javik doesnt feel this way, or we'd be missing out on so much lore.

I gotta be honest though, I feel this way
and shepard does too. The VI was going on about preserving for the next cycle and my shepard got a nice renagade *stfu ill stop them* interrupt

Modifié par Dendio1, 01 avril 2012 - 04:46 .

[alx119]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

alx119 wrote...

Don't try to undermine my argument by implying I use words incorrectly. Whether you stay consistent to your own arguments, or you're a hypocrite. 

Well, you certainly didn't help your case with this post.

A key misunderstanding here on your part is that you don't seem to understand what my argument actually is. I'd say it's not intentional rather than a strawman, but the point remains.

By your posts you seem to think I'm saying the contradictory statements of 'Everyone is allowed to have their own view' and 'A view the contradicts mine is wrong.'

That is not the case.

The argument I'm actually repeating is famously summed up by Senator Daniel Moynihan: Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. My argument rests on the points that not only are many people representing their opinions (projections/fanfic imaginations/whatever you wish to call it) as facts, but many people do so despite actual facts countering their premise (such as people who say the Crucible relay effects are the exact same as the Arrival explosion).

Exactly, but you are making your own facts as you go. And that is why I consider your opinions in this thread rather hypocrite. 

Most of the people that depict their opinions as facts, is because they are backed by the in game lore. While I agree that the explosion of the Relays is -NOT- the same as the Arrival one, it's very, very easy to see and -understand- why people would think so. If they are shown that if a Relay explodes it goes supernova, seeing all the Relays exploding (whether if the explosions are red green or blue) will drive them to think it's the same. WHICH is something the developers should have think beforehand. But nevermind that, the fact that the explosions aren't the same as Arrival doesn't mean that the Relay didn't go Supernova, as we don't know that. 

And you pretty much stated that "they didn't go supernova". You don't know that, you are making up your own facts. 

[Dean_the_Young]

alx119 wrote...

General User wrote...

alx119 actually wrote this...to Dean!

You clearly don't have that much of an investment or regard in the Mass Effect series, since you value it's concepts so poorly.

  To quote Bugs Bunny "he don't know [him] very well, do he?"

Well I don't doubt his knowledge of the Mass Effect world, but his investment in them. More concretely his emotional investement. Bringing in real life rationality and logic to the game is good if you want to postulate that the endings had an intention behind and followed the general story structure, but within the in-game's rationality and logic it made absolutely no sense and everything was left without a simple explanation, leaving people to speculate about literally everything. Plus very out of character. 

alex, I've written over 150,000 words on just two Mass Effect works alone, and that's not even the TL;DR essays that are a hobby. Unless you've changed accounts, I've been on these forums regularly posting for a year and a half longer than you, and before I took a new job I probably posted more frequently than you. I've drafted no less than four re-writes of the Mass Effect universe, collaborated with people in the development of another dozen more easily, and regularly write on the many strengths of the franchise.

When it comes to consumer basis, I'm not only well within the top 1% of consumer investment, chances are I'm well above you. Don't try and pull the 'Not a Real Fan' without something more substantial than 'not raging.'

[Orthodox Infidel]

The Angry One wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Radiation shielding technology. It's a space ship: it's inherent in the design.

There's also the point that 'shed' doesn't mean 'inernalized and cooked.'

Then why would the effects be catastrophic?
The energy is to be shed somewhere, if it was harmlessly shed into space with no consequence, why make a big deal out of it?

I feel compelled to point out to everyone pondering this point that Cherenkov radiation is a real physical phenominon that occurs anytime charged particles travel through a medium faster than the speed of light in that medium ("that medium" is usually not vacuum).

The Normandy itself and its crew are filled with charged particles. If there is any Cherenkov radiation produced from falling out of FTL speed as suggested in the codex, it's going to come from electrons within the ship and people. No ammount of shielding is going to protect anybody, because the radiation isn't coming from outside the ship.

The only good news for the Normandy crew is that the radiation will be so intense that they'll die instantly.

[alx119]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

alx119 wrote...

General User wrote...

alx119 actually wrote this...to Dean!

You clearly don't have that much of an investment or regard in the Mass Effect series, since you value it's concepts so poorly.

  To quote Bugs Bunny "he don't know [him] very well, do he?"

Well I don't doubt his knowledge of the Mass Effect world, but his investment in them. More concretely his emotional investement. Bringing in real life rationality and logic to the game is good if you want to postulate that the endings had an intention behind and followed the general story structure, but within the in-game's rationality and logic it made absolutely no sense and everything was left without a simple explanation, leaving people to speculate about literally everything. Plus very out of character. 

alex, I've written over 150,000 words on just two Mass Effect works alone, and that's not even the TL;DR essays that are a hobby. Unless you've changed accounts, I've been on these forums regularly posting for a year and a half longer than you, and before I took a new job I probably posted more frequently than you. I've drafted no less than four re-writes of the Mass Effect universe, collaborated with people in the development of another dozen more easily, and regularly write on the many strengths of the franchise.

When it comes to consumer basis, I'm not only well within the top 1% of consumer investment, chances are I'm well above you. Don't try and pull the 'Not a Real Fan' without something more substantial than 'not raging.'

I haven't. I was actually defending you, and in concrete your views stated in this thread. 

[Dean_the_Young]

alx119 wrote...

Exactly, but you are making your own facts as you go. And that is why I consider your opinions in this thread rather hypocrite.

Besides that's not what a hypocrite means, you've never established what facts I made up.

Most of the people that depict their opinions as facts, is because they are backed by the in game lore. While I agree that the explosion of the Relays is -NOT- the same as the Arrival one, it's very, very easy to see and -understand- why people would think so. If they are shown that if a Relay explodes it goes supernova, seeing all the Relays exploding (whether if the explosions are red green or blue) will drive them to think it's the same. WHICH is something the developers should have think beforehand. But nevermind that, the fact that the explosions aren't the same as Arrival doesn't mean that the Relay didn't go Supernova, as we don't know that.

Except we do, because we see the difference. The Crucible effect doesn't destroy the planet. The Relays are releasing the curcible effect.

You can't concede an argument, admit that the opposition is ignorant, and then adopt the opposition's argument.

And you pretty much stated that "they didn't go supernova". You don't know that, you are making up your own facts. 

Except, of course, we see the effects that aren't a super nova.

That's not making up facts. That's what actually ending shows. The Relays release the Crucible effect. Even after the effect takes place and a supernova could have occured if it was going to, Shepard will still wake up if Shepard survives.

Which, if there was a supernova, wouldn't have happened.

[Dean_the_Young]

alx119 wrote...

I haven't. I was actually defending you, and in concrete your views stated in this thread. 

No, you weren't. You were defending your own no true scotsman fallacy that I don't qualify as a real fan while trying to make a concession that didn't invalidate it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Quietness wrote...


Alrighty so ill take a stab at your last statement that you hinge your arguement on. What example through the in-game lore states that the Mass Relays at the end did not end like this?

The Crucible effect, the visual of the destruction of the Citadel, and the fact that Shepard can live where a supernova would have prevented this.

Without using any headcannon it must be supported through ingame fact.  Jungle planet does not work as a viable arguement considering we do not know anything on how they got there or where it is in relation to a codex, any speculation on this would be pure headcannon.

This is unclear. Are you asking how I know that the planet has edible vegetation?

[Wowlock]

Yep that is the point.

NO ONE in this world do things for 10000 YEARS LATER.....

They do things that may help the PRESENT and those they CARE ABOUT.

''Cycle is broken ... everything you care about is screwed but you might saved the next species in 50000 years ! '' Guess what ? I DON'T CARE about 50000 years later ! I will be dust and bones by then. And who is to say that another crazy machine-organic hybrids won't come out as ,say TERMINATORS , and do the same thing ?

If I can't see the results of my actions , what is the point of it ?

[Bleachrude]

I tend to disagree with Dean in a lot of things but Dean is definitely one of the more passionate ME fans

Personally, I have problems with the starchild but NOT with the relays going away...Going back to ME1 (since it seems like unless you love ME1, you're not considered a true fan by some here), Sovereign's whole speech about "directing organic life in certain ways" always meant to me that any ending would involve the relays in some fashion and that they would not be in the picture post game...

Was I really the only one that wasn't surprised that the relays (and citadel) went away?

[Velocithon]

Wowlock wrote...

Yep that is the point.

NO ONE in this world do things for 10000 YEARS LATER.....

They do things that may help the PRESENT and those they CARE ABOUT.

''Cycle is broken ... everything you care about is screwed but you might saved the next species in 50000 years ! '' Guess what ? I DON'T CARE about 50000 years later ! I will be dust and bones by then. And who is to say that another crazy machine-organic hybrids won't come out as ,say TERMINATORS , and do the same thing ?

If I can't see the results of my actions , what is the point of it ?

No, we're doing stuff for the future.

But we just don't CARE about it, in a sense. We'd MUCH RATHER see how it affects the people we KNOW and have come to love. Not some old fart and a kid on some whatever planet.

[Dean_the_Young]

Quietness wrote...

 the effects are catastrophic.  " Nothing other than ships can travel at FTL speeds, and if the effects are catastrophic for a ship than this magic radiation shield technology is not going to save it.

There is a catastrophic failure: the Normandy is damaged in falling out of FTL and crashes onto a planet.


Catastrophic doesn't mean certain death any more than the other many near-deaths of the Normandy group.

We'll ignore the fact that most of the Normandy's systems are destroyed by the fact that all reaper tech has gone kablooie.

Most of the Normandy's systems aren't Reaper tech. Nor does Reaper tech go kablooie regardless of ending.

Edit: Using Head Cannon does not over ride what the codex supports.

Assuming more than what is stated is not relying on the Codex.

[Scubaman8777]

Agree with you exactly OP. Very good points.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Angry One wrote...

Then why would the effects be catastrophic?

Because a ship falling out of FTL can tear the ship apart or otherwise render it non-functional.

That is a catastrophic equipment failure even if it doesn't result in anyone dying. Most of the time it would, but Mass Effect has always been about unlikely survivals.

The energy is to be shed somewhere, if it was harmlessly shed into space with no consequence, why make a big deal out of it?

Because the breaking up of a ship in space is usually a big deal.

[Dean_the_Young]

Velocithon wrote...

This.

I've mentioned before and I say it again. I really think a lot of the pro-enders are people who have not played the entire trilogy, or just bought ME3. Either that, or if they did play it all they simply did the main quest line and little else.

Well, this has a simple answer in regards to me.

You are wrong.

These are NOT the people who've invested in multiple replays of different paths with differnent classes.

Done it.

These are not people who actually grew fond of certain characters and, who after every missions no matter how large or small, ran around the Normandy talking to everyone they could to hear what they had to say about it.

Done it to. Not only do I have characters I've grown fond of, I've characters I've grown to actively dislike.

Pro-enders are people who, to put it in an analogy, swim in shallow water. All they see is sand and rocks. The hardcore fans (anti-enders) are the deep sea explorers who see its beauty.

You could just call them smelly and dumb while you're at it, Your Highness.

[alx119]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

alx119 wrote...

Exactly, but you are making your own facts as you go. And that is why I consider your opinions in this thread rather hypocrite.

Besides that's not what a hypocrite means, you've never established what facts I made up.

Most of the people that depict their opinions as facts, is because they are backed by the in game lore. While I agree that the explosion of the Relays is -NOT- the same as the Arrival one, it's very, very easy to see and -understand- why people would think so. If they are shown that if a Relay explodes it goes supernova, seeing all the Relays exploding (whether if the explosions are red green or blue) will drive them to think it's the same. WHICH is something the developers should have think beforehand. But nevermind that, the fact that the explosions aren't the same as Arrival doesn't mean that the Relay didn't go Supernova, as we don't know that.

Except we do, because we see the difference. The Crucible effect doesn't destroy the planet. The Relays are releasing the curcible effect.

You can't concede an argument, admit that the opposition is ignorant, and then adopt the opposition's argument.

And you pretty much stated that "they didn't go supernova". You don't know that, you are making up your own facts. 

Except, of course, we see the effects that aren't a super nova.

That's not making up facts. That's what actually ending shows. The Relays release the Crucible effect. Even after the effect takes place and a supernova could have occured if it was going to, Shepard will still wake up if Shepard survives.

Which, if there was a supernova, wouldn't have happened.

You must have gotten a very different ending than the ones I saw. 
Here's what we see: The crucible sends the beam wave, and see the effects on the Reapers on Earth, and in destroy we can also see Earth being calcinated, only humans, or only Reapers being damaged. 

Then we proceed to see the Crucible beaming the Relay, the Relay sends the beam away, and it explodes, the explosion doesn't seem to stop. we see the galaxy map -apparently- showing us how big the explosion is and we cut to the Normandy fleeing, that gets damaged, with a pretty visible explosion. 

Apparently though, the Normandy survives just fine and we see them crashed on a planet full of green. Joker comes out and different squaddies depending on the ending and who you were in the last mission. 

Nope, still I don't see any fact that backs you on this. You are making your own headcannon, I'm sorry. 

And for the record, Shepard waking up in the good Destroy ending is... Saying the best, left to a lot of speculation. Going with in game parameters, impossible. 

[Quietness]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quietness wrote...


Alrighty so ill take a stab at your last statement that you hinge your arguement on. What example through the in-game lore states that the Mass Relays at the end did not end like this?

The Crucible effect, the visual of the destruction of the Citadel, and the fact that Shepard can live where a supernova would have prevented this.

Without using any headcannon it must be supported through ingame fact.  Jungle planet does not work as a viable arguement considering we do not know anything on how they got there or where it is in relation to a codex, any speculation on this would be pure headcannon.

This is unclear. Are you asking how I know that the planet has edible vegetation?

You mean the easter egg where shepard survives being shot, blown up, blown up, and planet fall? Because we saw that work out so well at the begining of ME2 and that was without being blown up multiple times or being shot. This is an example of the story violating its own preset conditions. 

[Quietness]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quietness wrote...

 the effects are catastrophic.  " Nothing other than ships can travel at FTL speeds, and if the effects are catastrophic for a ship than this magic radiation shield technology is not going to save it.

There is a catastrophic failure: the Normandy is damaged in falling out of FTL and crashes onto a planet.


Catastrophic doesn't mean certain death any more than the other many near-deaths of the Normandy group.

We'll ignore the fact that most of the Normandy's systems are destroyed by the fact that all reaper tech has gone kablooie.

Most of the Normandy's systems aren't Reaper tech. Nor does Reaper tech go kablooie regardless of ending.

Edit: Using Head Cannon does not over ride what the codex supports.

Assuming more than what is stated is not relying on the Codex.

The normandy falls out of FTL due to the engines blowing up. The normandy than should be bathed in a radiation please refer to explination on how the radition works on previous page. You are doing more than assuming you are rewriting basic facts that have been provided to us the viewer or ignoring where you deem fit. This is headcannon it does not fit within the facts that are provided to us. Headcannon is ok for you, but not fit for using in an arguement where you are refuting what the game has already provided us.

As you have forgotten : http://youtu.be/Pm5RdU9_suc?t=2m47s Engines explodes ship poofs out of FTL

Modifié par Quietness, 01 avril 2012 - 05:08 .

[alx119]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

alx119 wrote...

I haven't. I was actually defending you, and in concrete your views stated in this thread. 

No, you weren't. You were defending your own no true scotsman fallacy that I don't qualify as a real fan while trying to make a concession that didn't invalidate it.

Nope, I was just saying that you used rationality and logic from an outside perspective, rather than an in-game rationality and logic. I never said that you weren't a good fan, rather that you had your own view of the game. 

I'm not out to get you, I'm just discussing your views. 

[mikeloeven]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quietness wrote...


Alrighty so ill take a stab at your last statement that you hinge your arguement on. What example through the in-game lore states that the Mass Relays at the end did not end like this?

The Crucible effect, the visual of the destruction of the Citadel, and the fact that Shepard can live where a supernova would have prevented this.

Without using any headcannon it must be supported through ingame fact.  Jungle planet does not work as a viable arguement considering we do not know anything on how they got there or where it is in relation to a codex, any speculation on this would be pure headcannon.

This is unclear. Are you asking how I know that the planet has edible vegetation?

actually the citadel never fully detonated you only saw some of the arms breaking off but the presidium apeared to remain intact

[Dean_the_Young]

Bleachrude wrote...

I tend to disagree with Dean in a lot of things but Dean is definitely one of the more passionate ME fans

Personally, I have problems with the starchild but NOT with the relays going away...Going back to ME1 (since it seems like unless you love ME1, you're not considered a true fan by some here), Sovereign's whole speech about "directing organic life in certain ways" always meant to me that any ending would involve the relays in some fashion and that they would not be in the picture post game...

Was I really the only one that wasn't surprised that the relays (and citadel) went away?

Captian Zaysh, at least.

His analogy was that 'We've beaten the gods and driven them away: are you really surprised they took their gifts away with them?'


Personally, I was eager when I heard in the leaks that the 'Control' ending would have kept the Relays. I think Bioware definitely missed an opportunity there.


And with that, I got to go.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 avril 2012 - 05:05 .

[Velocithon]

I said "a lot of people". Not "everyone". Therefore if you don't fall in the category it's ok. 


Try reading carefully next time. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Velocithon wrote...

This.

I've mentioned before and I say it again. I really think a lot of the pro-enders are people who have not played the entire trilogy, or just bought ME3. Either that, or if they did play it all they simply did the main quest line and little else.

Well, this has a simple answer in regards to me.

You are wrong.

These are NOT the people who've invested in multiple replays of different paths with differnent classes.

Done it.

These are not people who actually grew fond of certain characters and, who after every missions no matter how large or small, ran around the Normandy talking to everyone they could to hear what they had to say about it.

Done it to. Not only do I have characters I've grown fond of, I've characters I've grown to actively dislike.

Pro-enders are people who, to put it in an analogy, swim in shallow water. All they see is sand and rocks. The hardcore fans (anti-enders) are the deep sea explorers who see its beauty.

You could just call them smelly and dumb while you're at it, Your Highness.

[Quietness]

mikeloeven wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quietness wrote...


Alrighty so ill take a stab at your last statement that you hinge your arguement on. What example through the in-game lore states that the Mass Relays at the end did not end like this?

The Crucible effect, the visual of the destruction of the Citadel, and the fact that Shepard can live where a supernova would have prevented this.

Without using any headcannon it must be supported through ingame fact.  Jungle planet does not work as a viable arguement considering we do not know anything on how they got there or where it is in relation to a codex, any speculation on this would be pure headcannon.

This is unclear. Are you asking how I know that the planet has edible vegetation?

actually the citadel never fully detonated you only saw some of the arms breaking off but the presidium apeared to remain intact

The center of it blows up and explosions all over the station :

http://youtu.be/Pm5RdU9_suc?t=1m49s

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Velocithon wrote...

I said "a lot of people". Not "everyone". Therefore if you don't fall in the category it's ok. 


Try reading carefully next time. 

[quote=Dean]
Well, this has a simple answer in regards to me.
[/quote]You're welcome. Try returning the favor next time.