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#1176
Orthodox Infidel

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 Ok, so more about this fuel thing... the orginal primary codex entry has this text: 

Codex text I stole from the Mass Effect Wiki

Faster-than-light drives use element zero cores to reduce the mass of a ship, allowing higher rates of acceleration. This effectively raises the speed of light within the mass effect field, allowing high speed travel with negligible relativistic time dilation1 effects.Starships still require conventional thrusters (chemical rockets, commercial fusion torch, economy ion engine, or military antiproton drive) in addition to the FTL drive core. With only a core, a ship has no motive power.The amount of element zero and power required for a drive increases exponentially to the mass being moved and the degree it is being lightened. Very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive.If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation.


So, they say nothing about fuel being necessary for FTL in ME1... it's only necessary to accelerate the ship.  With this factoid alone there's no reason to think that they need a massive amount of fuel to get anywhere, because there's no friction in space to work against. You would just have one big acceleration right at the start to get to the desired sublight velocity, kick in the FTL generator, cruise to your destination, switch off the FTL generator and fire the engine again to stop once you're about to get to where you're going.

But, you need to stop on a regular basis to discharge the drive core. Which means your trip would actually be broken down into a long series of short burns. And if you really have to discharge the drive core every two days or whatever, that's a lot of fuel to burn up on your way to Palaven or wherever you're going.

I sincerely doubt the writers planned it that way. If they did, then they're pretty brilliant.

#1177
nitefyre410

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Quietness wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

... Bioware has done something that not many creators have been willing to do, that doesn't make it objectively right or wrong.


Yeah, there is a phrase (and a trope) for what BioWare did: Torch the Franchise and Run.


I thought that to, but if they truely did that, they went a step beyond and decided to go:

Torch the Franchise, Profit as much as possible from DLC, than Run.

 

Ya missed one...  Kill em All, Tourch the franchise and run,  DLC profit  and than cry  Artistic Ingerity  when people call them on it.

#1178
Guest_BrotherWarth_*

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Baronesa wrote...

LTKerr wrote...
Fuel for what? There's no friction in space. Once you are at whatever
speed, you keep it until you want to decelerate. You need fuel for only
those two actions: accelerate and decelerate.


That would work perfectly... at subluminic speed... for for you to move FASTER THAN LIGHT... well... you need to maintain the Mass Effect field, and that consumes "fuel". Without it, indeed you can move at subluminic speeds but then the journey would take thousands of years.


This.
Think of the mass effect field needed to travel at FTL speeds like the deflector array on starships in Star Trek. It consumes energy(fuel) and is necessary to FTL travel.

#1179
Orthodox Infidel

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nitefyre410 wrote...

Quietness wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

... Bioware has done something that not many creators have been willing to do, that doesn't make it objectively right or wrong.


Yeah, there is a phrase (and a trope) for what BioWare did: Torch the Franchise and Run.


I thought that to, but if they truely did that, they went a step beyond and decided to go:

Torch the Franchise, Profit as much as possible from DLC, than Run.

 

Ya missed one...  Kill em All, Tourch the franchise and run,  DLC profit  and than cry  Artistic Ingerity  when people call them on it.


If they were Torching the Franchise and Running, they wouldn't be doing DLC profit and Artistic Integrity.

Of course, it all depends on who "they" are. If we find out that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters quit Bioware tomorrow and then wrote a tell-all book saying that they did this deliberately (which I sincerely doubt will ever happen, as I really doubt they meant to ****** everybody off), then that would make sense, and all the DLC/Art stuff would be other people at Bioware/EA trying to put the fire out.

#1180
Dreogan

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Note: Tropes don't mean much. Bioware broke the suspension of disbelief for a good chunk of their audience. This shows they were not writing with their audience in mind -- a capital storytelling offense.

Whether or not this was intentional doesn't mean anything. This is an example of:

... Bioware has done something that not many creators have been willing to do, that doesn't make it objectively right or wrong.


An objectively bad storytelling decision.

#1181
durasteel

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YeGodz wrote...

So...if I'm to understand this correctly, the folks in this thread never cared about the thing has been the central plot of the entire series from like 20 minutes into the first game...spent 100-plus hours playing it anyway, bought a bunch of tie-ins about the same plot that they didn't care about...and are now shocked and disappointed that the ending of the last game in the series resolves...the main plot of the series.

Yeeeeaaahhhh......


Sorry to be so blunt, but the idea that the main plot of the Mass Effect series is AI/Organic conflict is just stupid.

If the Reapers were giant psychic space cockroaches and indoctrination was a function of their hive mind, the story would be exactly the same and Shepard would be trying every bit as much to stop them. For that matter, you could have the Rachni genetically engineered as a slave race that rebelled, and the Krogan elevated to stop the Geth from taking over the galaxy by fighting them in their hostile environment home base.

AI is a side plot, and it is completely resolved in the side stories of the Geth versus the Quarians, and EDI joining the crew. This unit has a soul, Joker has a girlfriend, Shepard and the player have closure of that sub-plot.

No one runs toward that beam past Marauder Shields thinking "I'm gonna protect organic life from synthetics!" No, you're thinking about saving Earth and the galaxy from giant space monsters that just happen to be machines. As the OP points out, you're never allowed to actually save Earth and the galaxy, so Shepard is a failure.

#1182
Machazareel

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Orthodox Infidel wrote...

 Ok, so more about this fuel thing... the orginal primary codex entry has this text: 

Codex text I stole from the Mass Effect Wiki

Faster-than-light drives use element zero cores to reduce the mass of a ship, allowing higher rates of acceleration. This effectively raises the speed of light within the mass effect field, allowing high speed travel with negligible relativistic time dilation1 effects.Starships still require conventional thrusters (chemical rockets, commercial fusion torch, economy ion engine, or military antiproton drive) in addition to the FTL drive core. With only a core, a ship has no motive power.The amount of element zero and power required for a drive increases exponentially to the mass being moved and the degree it is being lightened. Very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive.If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation.


So, they say nothing about fuel being necessary for FTL in ME1... it's only necessary to accelerate the ship.  With this factoid alone there's no reason to think that they need a massive amount of fuel to get anywhere, because there's no friction in space to work against. You would just have one big acceleration right at the start to get to the desired sublight velocity, kick in the FTL generator, cruise to your destination, switch off the FTL generator and fire the engine again to stop once you're about to get to where you're going.

But, you need to stop on a regular basis to discharge the drive core. Which means your trip would actually be broken down into a long series of short burns. And if you really have to discharge the drive core every two days or whatever, that's a lot of fuel to burn up on your way to Palaven or wherever you're going.

I sincerely doubt the writers planned it that way. If they did, then they're pretty brilliant.


Pretty sure Element Zero is the fuel in question. It is required to sustain the FTL effect.

Modifié par Machazareel, 02 avril 2012 - 12:41 .


#1183
The Irish Man

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Agreed!

#1184
Nathan_41

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Or the Normandy has foods they can eat and the means to make more. Or if there's a colony on the world which can provide. Or if help arrives from outside the system, either called in or from rescuers searching for the Normandy. Or-


It is almost certain that the Normandy does not not have the capability to produce dextro-amino food. Besides the fact that Garrus and Tali are the only two dextro-amino based lifeforms aboard the ship (and are not vital members of the crew that the Alliance engineers would certainly have taken into consideration), if the technology available to do so was widely available then there would be no point for the Quarian Liveships; every quarian vessel in the Migrant fleet would have the technology aboard to produce food.

And on the other points, all we see is the Normandy crash into a wild, jungle world without signs of any other sentient life in the area. Considering the total number of star systems in the galaxy and the likely number of planets against the odds of it being a settled world, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it is likely that help is a very long way off, and you're simply being insulting by condemning people for coming to a similar conclusion just because its not spelled out. 

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unless you assume things are fatal, your squad will live.

See how easy this is? We can do this all day. What you're exhibiting is known as the confirmation bias: you've made a decision of what you want to happen, and then are framing everything else in terms to support your pre-determined conclusion.


And you're simply being contrary to others who are trying to form their own logical conclusions based on what the game showed them by shaking your finger at them and saying "Nuh uh, you're assuming things that only might be true. There are handwaves for that."

By your stream of logic, if a person jumps off an eight-story building, but the camera cuts away before you see him hit the ground, its unfair to assume things didn't go well for the jumper and get upset about it, because hey, willful interpretation, right?


Den_the_Young wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

Unless you play a reactionary style to the game.

If you only react to what's explicitly in the game, then the Mass Effect trilology is a horrific mess anyway of vague insinuations and lack of substance. At which point the ending should be something of a mercy killing.


Says you. You aren't the authority on how people are allowed to play and enjoy the game. I played the game in a reactionary fashion. I gave no thought to things that aren't at least peripherally related to information that was given in conversations or other in-game information, and I enjoyed it very much. I doubt I am the only one, and I don't see how my own experience is any less valid than yours.


Dean_the_Young wrote...

And they all survived the radation how? "
If the field collapses while the ship is moving at faster-than-light speeds, the effects are catastrophic. The ship is snapped back to sublight velocity, the enormous excess energy shed in the form of lethal Cherenkov radiation. "

Radiation shielding technology. It's a space ship: it's inherent in the design.

There's also the point that 'shed' doesn't mean 'inernalized and cooked.'


It does, actually.

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

I feel compelled to point out to everyone pondering this point that Cherenkov radiation is a real physical phenominon that occurs anytime charged particles travel through a medium faster than the speed of light in that medium ("that medium" is usually not vacuum).

The Normandy itself and its crew are filled with charged particles. If there is any Cherenkov radiation produced from falling out of FTL speed as suggested in the codex, it's going to come from electrons ]within the ship and people. No ammount of shielding is going to protect anybody, because the radiation isn't coming from outside the ship.


Modifié par Nathan_41, 02 avril 2012 - 01:32 .


#1185
sw04ca

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Machazareel wrote...
Pretty sure Element Zero is the fuel in question. It is required to sustain the FTL effect.

I think they just run a current through it.

#1186
Vortex13

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I have been lurking around this thread for a while now and I would like to share my opinion on the OP's point and several other points brought up already and still others I have about the ending.

WARNING wall of text inbound.

First of all I do agree with the OP's opinion of the ending. I also dislike how the story changes from a character driven narrative into an abstract pseudoscience fiction based on the inevitablity of machines rising against their creators in the last five minutes of the game.

As it was stated earlier in this thread, humanity places more priority and emotional attachment on people and things we are acquainted and familar with, and it is true. My family and friends are more pressing to me than starving people in Africa.

Does that make me a racist?

Am I a bad person because I feel no emotional attachment to those individuals? 

No, it does not, it simply that I am a human being and that I feel more attachment to those I have lived with and grown up with than I do to a random person that I have never met. 

Do I think that what those people are going through is bad?

Yes, but it is not a priority in my life, if I was given the choice to save the life of a stranger vs the life of a family member I would choose family, choose familar, choose emotional attachment every time.

That is why I dislike that particular part of the ending; there are other parts to be sure (Plotholes, Change in literary consitency, ect.); but this part of the ending more or less forces the player to see these two random people, part of a random society, that we have never until that point met as more important then the characters I have spent the past three games with.

And while I am on the subject of the of the Star Gazer scene I would like to bring up another reason why I don't like the ending. "The Shepard" the title that the man and child use to describe the main character, envokes one of two possible outlooks on the Mass Effect universe, both of which in my opinion, are bad.

The first outlook, is that the society that the old man and child live in has regressed so far that it is about the same as Warhammer 40K's Imperium of Man. A culture were so much information has been lost, that (as the Imperium of Man would have it) finding a blueprint for a tank or gun is the same as finding the Holy Grail. A society that can not move forward but instead has stagnated and can only "rediscover" what the previous civalization had already achieved.

I base this first outlook on the the fact that the old man tells the child that much of the details have been lost to time, and how he is telling the tale of "The Shepard" as a myth. Now some could argue that 10,000 years is a long time, and indeed it is, but 50,000 years is longer and while the Prothans's (sp?) society was not known, the races of the galaxy did see their existance and technological prowess as a fact, not as a a bedtime story to tell children.

The second outlook, which is more likely considering the previous scene with Shepard sacrificing his/her life to stop the Reapers, is that "The Shepard" has become the messiah to this culture. This point has been made by other posters thoughout the forums, that Commander Shepard is a parallel for Jesus, that the sacrifice made in stopping the Reapers (aka The Devil) frees future life from their oppression.

This outlook is worse than the first in my opinion for a number of reasons:

1. It has been used in almost every popular science fiction story out there. Anikan Skywalker in Star Wars, Neo in the Matrix, John Conner in the Terminator series, the God-Emporer of WH40K (admittedly they were at least up front with this fact), ect. The sheer number of times a science fiction story has pulled the "Jesus" card makes the Mass Effect ending into an overused plot point, not an original, edgy, artistic twist. 

2. It doesn't fit with Shepards's character in the previous 2.99 games. Sure, s/he has had to make big chocies in the games; choices like saving or killing the council, rewriting or destroying the geth heritics, curing or not curing the genophage, ect but those chocies never hinged on the fact that only Shepard was the "choosen one". 

Now it is true that TIM (The Illusive Man) says that Shepard is the only one that can stop the Collectors in ME2 but that was only based on the fact that s/he had the most experience in fighting the Reapers and their minions and was a natural leader. Not because Shepard was the  one and only one destined to deafeat the Reapers.
Likewise, Legion's deferment to Shepard during his loalty mission was based on his/her experience in dealing with the Geth not because Shepard was the prophesied messiah destined to bring an end to the Quarian / Geth war.

Only during the final five minutes of the game, during the scene with the catalyst, does the game pull the "Jesus card". It is during this brief dialoge that Shepard is told that only s/he could break the cycle, only s/he could could control the Reapers, only s/he could synthisize the galaxy. Requiring Shepard's death in order to facilitate breaking the cycle, just sceams of a messianic parallel. A blood sacrifice (in control and synthesis, and an implied one in destroy)  having to take place in order to defeat the Reapers is too similar to not draw a comparison.

3. It is annoying and offensive, to me as a Christian. I mean it is hard enough to find a science fiction universe that doesn't treat my faith with outright contempt.

In most sci-fi settings the religious groups (ie Christianity) are portrayed as the antagonists, or at the very least ignorant roadblocks that the protaganist has to circumvent to achieve his goal. Most of the storys view Christians in one of several ways:

"Oh your a Christian, you must have been one of the people that belived the earth was flat, and people like you have hindered the growth of  science. Why without you and your religion we would be all better off!"

or

"We discovered alien life in the universe therefore it disproves the exisence of God, and if you continue to belive in God, well then you are a xenophobe and are not open to others beliefs."

or even

"Can your God make something that is soo heavy that even he can not lift it? No? Then God does not exist because he should be able to create something like this if he is God. And if he can not pick up said object then God does not exist because he should be able to do anything. Therefore I have disproved your God's existence through SCIENCE and LOGIC!"

Granted those statements are exagerated pharaprases, but it does not change the fact that science fiction is typically hostile to believing in something other than science.  With that being said, I would like to point out that I am not close minded , and view anything God related as "off limits" in literature. Metaphors, parallels, and underlying themes are completely fine with me.

When you say a charater IS Jesus however is when I begin to draw the line, especially when said character exhibits some non-Jesus behavior in the literary work. Things such as holding grudges, having sex outside of marriage, and in the case of Renegade Shepard is a raciscist SOB with homicidal/genocidal tendenciies.

I loved in Mass Effect 1, when Ashley asked my Shepard if I believed in God, and the game gave me the option to say yes or no. I could decide if I wanted my Shepard to be an athiest or a believer (Christian for me), and the game respected that, I was free to shape my character.
 
Not so in the ending, here we are told that Shepard is Jesus and that using special space mag.... I mean science we will now play God with the rest of the galaxy which is offensive not only to me as a beliver, but I would imagine to athiests as well.

Phew! Sorry for the long post, just wanted to get my point across. If anyone is willing to read my wall-o-text I would be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Image IPB

#1187
Stygian1

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I agree. I've come to the conclusion BioWare is inept at telling stories, and that I'll never buy a game from them again.

Beating Mass Effect 3 turned me into a cynicist that hates all things BioWare. I'm sick of these forums. I'm sick of caring.

:'p

#1188
Fliprot

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Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

When Javik, who's goal it was after the war was over was to return to the graves of his comrades adn find peace is now trapped on a stupid jungle planet and never able to leave YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!!!


Ill go ahead and speculate that Javik will go insane with anger, and murder everyone in their sleep.

#1189
Rafe34

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Vortex13 wrote...
3. It is annoying and offensive, to me as a Christian. I mean it is hard enough to find a science fiction universe that doesn't treat my faith with outright contempt.

In most sci-fi settings the religious groups (ie Christianity) are portrayed as the antagonists, or at the very least ignorant roadblocks that the protaganist has to circumvent to achieve his goal. Most of the storys view Christians in one of several ways:

"Oh your a Christian, you must have been one of the people that belived the earth was flat, and people like you have hindered the growth of  science. Why without you and your religion we would be all better off!"

or

"We discovered alien life in the universe therefore it disproves the exisence of God, and if you continue to belive in God, well then you are a xenophobe and are not open to others beliefs."

or even

"Can your God make something that is soo heavy that even he can not lift it? No? Then God does not exist because he should be able to create something like this if he is God. And if he can not pick up said object then God does not exist because he should be able to do anything. Therefore I have disproved your God's existence through SCIENCE and LOGIC!"

Granted those statements are exagerated pharaprases, but it does not change the fact that science fiction is typically hostile to believing in something other than science.  With that being said, I would like to point out that I am not close minded , and view anything God related as "off limits" in literature. Metaphors, parallels, and underlying themes are completely fine with me.

When you say a charater IS Jesus however is when I begin to draw the line, especially when said character exhibits some non-Jesus behavior in the literary work. Things such as holding grudges, having sex outside of marriage, and in the case of Renegade Shepard is a raciscist SOB with homicidal/genocidal tendenciies.

I loved in Mass Effect 1, when Ashley asked my Shepard if I believed in God, and the game gave me the option to say yes or no. I could decide if I wanted my Shepard to be an athiest or a believer (Christian for me), and the game respected that, I was free to shape my character.
 
Not so in the ending, here we are told that Shepard is Jesus and that using special space mag.... I mean science we will now play God with the rest of the galaxy which is offensive not only to me as a beliver, but I would imagine to athiests as well.


I agree with everything you said except in the quoted part. Which is simply a WTF moment. 

Why the blazes do you think that Shepard is Jesus?

I also love the bolded part sneaking in there. Perhaps I'm just completely out of the "Christianity" movement now, but its my understanding that Jesus having sex AT ALL would be wrong, no? (I also love how that's thrown in with Renegade Shep being a racist homocidal person.)

Modifié par Rafe34, 02 avril 2012 - 01:33 .


#1190
Rafe34

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Fliprot wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

When Javik, who's goal it was after the war was over was to return to the graves of his comrades adn find peace is now trapped on a stupid jungle planet and never able to leave YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!!!


Ill go ahead and speculate that Javik will go insane with anger, and murder everyone in their sleep.


Speculation for... 

Nope. It's not even funny anymore.

:(

#1191
DaeJi

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Rafe34 wrote...


Why the blazes do you think that Shepard is Jesus?


There are parallels. Shepard sacrifices himself/herself to free the people of the galaxy from a dark influence and is remembered in the future, not as Commander Shepard, but as The Shepard, a title but not a person. Also Jesus was called the Shepard of Man, so there is that too.

#1192
Fliprot

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Vhalkyrie wrote...

Shepard presided over the biggest pyrrhic victory since time began. The Mass Relays blowing up destroys the star systems for hundreds of star clusters. That SHOULD include the Sol System too. Any excuse why this isn't the case is garbage. A visible expanse of light viewable from space means a tremendous amount of energy is released. Why bother showing us what happens when a Mass Relay blows in Arrival if this isn't the case? Every bunny, puppy, bug, or plant in every star system with a mass relay is now reduced to cosmic dust. Shepard accepting any Reaper offer is mutually assured destruction, not a victory.


RIght. I hate it when pro ending apologists have the gall to tell you YOU are the one speculating about the relays going supernova, when a whole DLC was dedicated to telling us what happens when you destroy a relay. 


I get that it's possible that destroying in some way other than ramming an asteroid into it could cause a different, perhaps less destructive explotion, or maybe even nothing, as it is possible that the energy from the destruction of the relay could just transfer from relay to relay. This is what the pro enders say to argue that you didnt in fact destroy the galaxy.

Here's the difference:

Relays go supernova and destroy the galaxy  = Educated guess. Because we have been told and shown.

Relays transfer energy harmlessly from relay to relay as they are destroyed = Speculation.

There's only one precedent, told and shown, and thats supernova.

#1193
Vortex13

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For the same reason that there are numerous threads in the formus are saying the same thing.

The end of the game pretty much says that Shepard is the choosen one. Only s/he can break the cycle, and in the case of synthis (sp?) only Shepards essece can fuse synthetics and organics further enforcing the Shepard is Jesus point.

Modifié par Vortex13, 02 avril 2012 - 01:39 .


#1194
Pfor

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Vortex13 wrote...

I have been lurking around this thread for a while now and I would like to share my opinion on the OP's point and several other points brought up already and still others I have about the ending.

WARNING wall of text inbound.

First of all I do agree with the OP's opinion of the ending. I also dislike how the story changes from a character driven narrative into an abstract pseudoscience fiction based on the inevitablity of machines rising against their creators in the last five minutes of the game.

As it was stated earlier in this thread, humanity places more priority and emotional attachment on people and things we are acquainted and familar with, and it is true. My family and friends are more pressing to me than starving people in Africa.

Does that make me a racist?

Am I a bad person because I feel no emotional attachment to those individuals? 

No, it does not, it simply that I am a human being and that I feel more attachment to those I have lived with and grown up with than I do to a random person that I have never met. 

Do I think that what those people are going through is bad?

Yes, but it is not a priority in my life, if I was given the choice to save the life of a stranger vs the life of a family member I would choose family, choose familar, choose emotional attachment every time.

That is why I dislike that particular part of the ending; there are other parts to be sure (Plotholes, Change in literary consitency, ect.); but this part of the ending more or less forces the player to see these two random people, part of a random society, that we have never until that point met as more important then the characters I have spent the past three games with.

And while I am on the subject of the of the Star Gazer scene I would like to bring up another reason why I don't like the ending. "The Shepard" the title that the man and child use to describe the main character, envokes one of two possible outlooks on the Mass Effect universe, both of which in my opinion, are bad.

The first outlook, is that the society that the old man and child live in has regressed so far that it is about the same as Warhammer 40K's Imperium of Man. A culture were so much information has been lost, that (as the Imperium of Man would have it) finding a blueprint for a tank or gun is the same as finding the Holy Grail. A society that can not move forward but instead has stagnated and can only "rediscover" what the previous civalization had already achieved.

I base this first outlook on the the fact that the old man tells the child that much of the details have been lost to time, and how he is telling the tale of "The Shepard" as a myth. Now some could argue that 10,000 years is a long time, and indeed it is, but 50,000 years is longer and while the Prothans's (sp?) society was not known, the races of the galaxy did see their existance and technological prowess as a fact, not as a a bedtime story to tell children.

The second outlook, which is more likely considering the previous scene with Shepard sacrificing his/her life to stop the Reapers, is that "The Shepard" has become the messiah to this culture. This point has been made by other posters thoughout the forums, that Commander Shepard is a parallel for Jesus, that the sacrifice made in stopping the Reapers (aka The Devil) frees future life from their oppression.

This outlook is worse than the first in my opinion for a number of reasons:

1. It has been used in almost every popular science fiction story out there. Anikan Skywalker in Star Wars, Neo in the Matrix, John Conner in the Terminator series, the God-Emporer of WH40K (admittedly they were at least up front with this fact), ect. The sheer number of times a science fiction story has pulled the "Jesus" card makes the Mass Effect ending into an overused plot point, not an original, edgy, artistic twist. 

2. It doesn't fit with Shepards's character in the previous 2.99 games. Sure, s/he has had to make big chocies in the games; choices like saving or killing the council, rewriting or destroying the geth heritics, curing or not curing the genophage, ect but those chocies never hinged on the fact that only Shepard was the "choosen one". 

Now it is true that TIM (The Illusive Man) says that Shepard is the only one that can stop the Collectors in ME2 but that was only based on the fact that s/he had the most experience in fighting the Reapers and their minions and was a natural leader. Not because Shepard was the  one and only one destined to deafeat the Reapers.
Likewise, Legion's deferment to Shepard during his loalty mission was based on his/her experience in dealing with the Geth not because Shepard was the prophesied messiah destined to bring an end to the Quarian / Geth war.

Only during the final five minutes of the game, during the scene with the catalyst, does the game pull the "Jesus card". It is during this brief dialoge that Shepard is told that only s/he could break the cycle, only s/he could could control the Reapers, only s/he could synthisize the galaxy. Requiring Shepard's death in order to facilitate breaking the cycle, just sceams of a messianic parallel. A blood sacrifice (in control and synthesis, and an implied one in destroy)  having to take place in order to defeat the Reapers is too similar to not draw a comparison.

3. It is annoying and offensive, to me as a Christian. I mean it is hard enough to find a science fiction universe that doesn't treat my faith with outright contempt.

In most sci-fi settings the religious groups (ie Christianity) are portrayed as the antagonists, or at the very least ignorant roadblocks that the protaganist has to circumvent to achieve his goal. Most of the storys view Christians in one of several ways:

"Oh your a Christian, you must have been one of the people that belived the earth was flat, and people like you have hindered the growth of  science. Why without you and your religion we would be all better off!"

or

"We discovered alien life in the universe therefore it disproves the exisence of God, and if you continue to belive in God, well then you are a xenophobe and are not open to others beliefs."

or even

"Can your God make something that is soo heavy that even he can not lift it? No? Then God does not exist because he should be able to create something like this if he is God. And if he can not pick up said object then God does not exist because he should be able to do anything. Therefore I have disproved your God's existence through SCIENCE and LOGIC!"

Granted those statements are exagerated pharaprases, but it does not change the fact that science fiction is typically hostile to believing in something other than science.  With that being said, I would like to point out that I am not close minded , and view anything God related as "off limits" in literature. Metaphors, parallels, and underlying themes are completely fine with me.

When you say a charater IS Jesus however is when I begin to draw the line, especially when said character exhibits some non-Jesus behavior in the literary work. Things such as holding grudges, having sex outside of marriage, and in the case of Renegade Shepard is a raciscist SOB with homicidal/genocidal tendenciies.

I loved in Mass Effect 1, when Ashley asked my Shepard if I believed in God, and the game gave me the option to say yes or no. I could decide if I wanted my Shepard to be an athiest or a believer (Christian for me), and the game respected that, I was free to shape my character.
 
Not so in the ending, here we are told that Shepard is Jesus and that using special space mag.... I mean science we will now play God with the rest of the galaxy which is offensive not only to me as a beliver, but I would imagine to athiests as well.

Phew! Sorry for the long post, just wanted to get my point across. If anyone is willing to read my wall-o-text I would be interested to read your thoughts on the matter. Image IPB


My thoughts are that you've gone overboard in looking at this. 

Just chill dude. They're not making Shepard Jesus. If anything, they're discussing how history can subsume the individual. Whether Shepard is a bastard or a saint, he's ultimately a hero because he saves the galaxy. History scrubs away the rest. 

#1195
Cgrissom

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AHA, so very true, OP.

#1196
Shaigunjoe

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Pfor wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

snip


My thoughts are that you've gone overboard in looking at this. 

Just chill dude. They're not making Shepard Jesus. If anything, they're discussing how history can subsume the individual. Whether Shepard is a bastard or a saint, he's ultimately a hero because he saves the galaxy. History scrubs away the rest. 


Good point Pfor,  Shepard was most definitly a prophet and only a chosen one from the view of those that enlisted her, from the get go, though sometimes Shep's actions were hardly saintlike.  I do like to use the phrase space jesus when talking about Shep, but I am not saying Shep is a christian Jesus, mearly someone of equal importance (heck, breaking the cycle would definitly cause a new year standard to come about).  The moral framework of the future generations was determined by sheps actions.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 02 avril 2012 - 01:54 .


#1197
Shaigunjoe

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DaeJi wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...


Why the blazes do you think that Shepard is Jesus?


There are parallels. Shepard sacrifices himself/herself to free the people of the galaxy from a dark influence and is remembered in the future, not as Commander Shepard, but as The Shepard, a title but not a person. Also Jesus was called the Shepard of Man, so there is that too.


Heck, she was also a prophet AND got resurrected, what more do you want? 

#1198
Nathan_41

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Vortex13 wrote...

*A few things.*


I share the opinion that the endings were very poorly done, and I would love to see a change made myself, but I disagree on a great deal of your reasoning, if that matters.

Firstly, I am an Atheist. You mentioned that its difficult for you to find science fiction that doesn't treat your faith with contempt, but I have to say its difficult for many of us who put no stock in religion to find any form of fantasy/sci fi entertainment that doesn't contain Judeo-Christian allegories and messages. Sorry to say, if others have to deal with it then perhaps you can too.

I also think your reading far too deeply and taking the ME story too seriously. Shepard is not Jesus, regardless of what parellels you want to draw between them. He/She is a soldier in an intergalactic military. Any references to Shepard in a quasi-messianic sense is meant to drive home the fact that Shepard is a savior, by virtue of stopping the Reapers once and for all. You may be upset that Shepard can't display that he adheres completely to the teachings of the bible, but Islamic players cannot have a Shepard who does the same to the Koran. Others who believe in neo-paganism, mahayana buddhism or native american beliefs are no less important than you.

Bottom line, I'm sorry you found everything you listed distateful, but your religious beliefs do not give you specific rights to dictate changes to the story. I think that's incredibly unfair. Of course, those arguments you made that aren't a result of religious beliefs are still fair enough.

Modifié par Nathan_41, 02 avril 2012 - 02:00 .


#1199
Chrishenanigans

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Fliprot wrote...

Here's the difference:

Relays go supernova and destroy the galaxy  = Educated guess. Because we have been told and shown.

Relays transfer energy harmlessly from relay to relay as they are destroyed = Speculation.

There's only one precedent, told and shown, and thats supernova.


I just want to quote this for emphasis. It's extremely frustrating whenever someone brings up the relay explosions and are attacked for reasonably extrapolating what's in the codex and Arrival.

#1200
Nobrandminda

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 I remember saying something similar to this when I first reacted to the ending:  Mass Effect is a character driven storyline.  I care about the characters, and the game just sort of forgets about them.