1291 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

So...if I'm to understand this correctly, the folks in this thread
never cared about the thing has been the central plot of the entire
series from like 20 minutes into the first game...spent 100-plus hours
playing it anyway, bought a bunch of tie-ins about the same plot that
they didn't care about...and are now shocked and disappointed that the
ending of the last game in the series resolves...the main plot of the
series.

Yeeeeaaahhhh......

Actually, it's funny you should mention that.

The ending choice and final 5 minutes does not concern the main issue of stopping the Reapers.  Suddenly, the main problem in the game and universe is this apparent synthetics and organics issue.  Which is what the entire final choice is about (the Reapers going away is just a product of that)!  

THEY CHANGED THE MAIN PLOTLINE WITHIN THE LAST 5 MINUTES.

The ending fails on literally every level imagineable.  It's impressive, really, that they managed to **** it up so badly, even on issues you would learn in writing 101.

[Vortex13]

Nathan_41 wrote...

I share the opinion that the endings were very poorly done, and I would love to see a change made myself, but I disagree on a great deal of your reasoning, if that matters.

Firstly, I am an Atheist. You mentioned that its difficult for you to find science fiction that doesn't treat your faith with contempt, but I have to say its difficult for many of us who put no stock in religion to find any form of fantasy/sci fi entertainment that doesn't contain Judeo-Christian allegories and messages. Sorry to say, if others have to deal with it then perhaps you can too.

I also think your reading far too deeply and taking the ME story too seriously. Shepard is not Jesus, regardless of what parellels you want to draw between them. He/She is a soldier in an intergalactic military. Any references to Shepard in a quasi-messianic sense is meant to drive home the fact that Shepard is a savior, by virtue of stopping the Reapers once and for all. You may be upset that Shepard can't display that he adheres completely to the teachings of the bible, but Islamic players cannot have a Shepard who does the same to the Koran. Others who believe in neo-paganism, mahayana buddhism or native american beliefs are no less important than you.

Bottom line, I'm sorry you found everything you listed distateful, but your religious beliefs do not give you specific rights to dictate changes to the story. I think that's incredibly unfair. Of course, those arguments you made that aren't a result of religious beliefs are still fair enough.

I  never said that becuase of my beliefs as a Christian that the ending should be changed on that merit alone. Actually I was pointing out the fact that such a plot point has been used so many times (Neo in the Matrix, Anakin in Star Wars) that  Mass Effect's ending in my opinion was an overused plot point not an original artistic ending.

Also I said that the ending of the game alluding to Shepard being Jesus or at the very least Jesus-like was distaseful to me as a Christian for the reasons I stated above (non-Jesus like behavior) and it would be distastful to athiests as well since it forces their athiest Shepard to be a Jesus figure regardless of wheater they believe that way or not. 

Your opinion is as valid as my own, I was mearly pointing out some of the reasons why I dislike the ending, wheather taking it at face value (Galatic Dark Age) or viewing it's metaphorical underpinings (Shepard is Space-Jesus)

[Nathan_41]

Vortex13 wrote...

I  never said that becuase of my beliefs as a Christian that the ending should be changed on that merit alone. Actually I was pointing out the fact that such a plot point has been used so many times (Neo in the Matrix, Anakin in Star Wars) that  Mass Effect's ending in my opinion was an overused plot point not an original artistic ending.

My bad then. Mistook your meaning. 

Also I said that the ending of the game alluding to Shepard being Jesus or at the very least Jesus-like was distaseful to me as a Christian for the reasons I stated above (non-Jesus like behavior) and it would be distastful to athiests as well since it forces their athiest Shepard to be a Jesus figure regardless of wheater they believe that way or not.

Debatable. We atheists have been force-fed this stuff since we adopted our present convictions. Some may agree with you, but it doesn't bother me. At least, for the reasoning you put forward.

Your opinion is as valid as my own, I was mearly pointing out some of the reasons why I dislike the ending, wheather taking it at face value (Galatic Dark Age) or viewing it's metaphorical underpinings (Shepard is Space-Jesus)

Good to know. Sorry for the mix-up.

Modifié par Nathan_41, 02 avril 2012 - 02:31 .

[Rolando93]

Fliprot wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Shepard presided over the biggest pyrrhic victory since time began. The Mass Relays blowing up destroys the star systems for hundreds of star clusters. That SHOULD include the Sol System too. Any excuse why this isn't the case is garbage. A visible expanse of light viewable from space means a tremendous amount of energy is released. Why bother showing us what happens when a Mass Relay blows in Arrival if this isn't the case? Every bunny, puppy, bug, or plant in every star system with a mass relay is now reduced to cosmic dust. Shepard accepting any Reaper offer is mutually assured destruction, not a victory.

RIght. I hate it when pro ending apologists have the gall to tell you YOU are the one speculating about the relays going supernova, when a whole DLC was dedicated to telling us what happens when you destroy a relay. 


I get that it's possible that destroying in some way other than ramming an asteroid into it could cause a different, perhaps less destructive explotion, or maybe even nothing, as it is possible that the energy from the destruction of the relay could just transfer from relay to relay. This is what the pro enders say to argue that you didnt in fact destroy the galaxy.

Here's the difference:

Relays go supernova and destroy the galaxy  = Educated guess. Because we have been told and shown.

Relays transfer energy harmlessly from relay to relay as they are destroyed = Speculation.

There's only one precedent, told and shown, and thats supernova.

It is pretty much proven that the relays exploding at the end did not destroy the sytems. If they did you would not see Shepard breathing in one of the endings. He would be obliterated. Life still goes on after the destruction of the relays. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

[Garlador]

Rolando93 wrote...

It is pretty much proven that the relays exploding at the end did not destroy the sytems. If they did you would not see Shepard breathing in one of the endings. He would be obliterated. Life still goes on after the destruction of the relays. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

Except for the exploding relay obviously destroying the Normandy and reducing it to vapor as it tries to flee the energy wave.

... And Shepard waking up doesn't make any sense at all. Different location, unsurvival trauma, etc. Indoctrination theory to the rescue on that one.

[Diablos2525]

The Angry One wrote...
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

Woah...
WOAH, WOAH!
YOU go to far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Quietness]

Rolando93 wrote...

Fliprot wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Shepard presided over the biggest pyrrhic victory since time began. The Mass Relays blowing up destroys the star systems for hundreds of star clusters. That SHOULD include the Sol System too. Any excuse why this isn't the case is garbage. A visible expanse of light viewable from space means a tremendous amount of energy is released. Why bother showing us what happens when a Mass Relay blows in Arrival if this isn't the case? Every bunny, puppy, bug, or plant in every star system with a mass relay is now reduced to cosmic dust. Shepard accepting any Reaper offer is mutually assured destruction, not a victory.

RIght. I hate it when pro ending apologists have the gall to tell you YOU are the one speculating about the relays going supernova, when a whole DLC was dedicated to telling us what happens when you destroy a relay. 


I get that it's possible that destroying in some way other than ramming an asteroid into it could cause a different, perhaps less destructive explotion, or maybe even nothing, as it is possible that the energy from the destruction of the relay could just transfer from relay to relay. This is what the pro enders say to argue that you didnt in fact destroy the galaxy.

Here's the difference:

Relays go supernova and destroy the galaxy  = Educated guess. Because we have been told and shown.

Relays transfer energy harmlessly from relay to relay as they are destroyed = Speculation.

There's only one precedent, told and shown, and thats supernova.

It is pretty much proven that the relays exploding at the end did not destroy the sytems. If they did you would not see Shepard breathing in one of the endings. He would be obliterated. Life still goes on after the destruction of the relays. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

Because planet falling in me2 did not reduce you to meat and tubes. Shepard survives being shot blown up twice and planet fall? Bad writing does not cover plotholes, the breathing thing was more an easter egg than anything.

[Toalhinha]

Even if the relays didn't go Nova, "life goes on" is completely inaccurate. I can accept that the relays shot the energy from one another, BUT
Life does NOT go on, and that' a fact.
Whole armada stranded on Sol system, starvation, overpopulation and the list goes on. This is not life continuing, this is life ending.
Remember the Drell, who achieved industrial revolution just as their natural resources were ending and HAD TO BE RESCUED BY JELLYFISH to have a chance to live.

No, I'm sorry, the endings are completely redundant, you did the Reapers job in their place and much faster than they could've, wich is incredibly ironic.

If I wanted a story about inevitability of death, nihilism and meaninglessness of effort, I wouldn't play an epic hero's journey with multiple choices in it.

To sum it all up:
The endings are an incredible feat of bad writing.

[Mev186]

The thing is... in the game's story they clearly said that destroying a Mass Relay would destroy a solar system. Making some half baked reasoning why it won't this time is lazy writing. The ending is not consistent with the narrative. If they were going to destroy the relays don't have a DLC where the main story deals with the disastrous effects of destroying a mass relay. Everything you need to understand and speculate with should be in the narrative in the game. I shouldn't have to go on the internet and hear the dev's give their reasoning why something did or did not happen. Thats bad writing 101.

In short the endings don't need clarification, They are broken and need to be fixed.

Modifié par Mev186, 02 avril 2012 - 03:50 .

[KrunkMasterB]

^Exactly. This is my whole problem with the ending. They take all the established characters, themes, and lore that have been built up over 3 games and throw them out the window, replacing it with this train wreck.

[Vortex13]

Mass Relays exploding, from what I have seen in game (Codex entries, Arrival DLC) points to destroying a relay as a big no no.

But lets take a step back for a second and say that the crucible  energy wave did indeed destroy the relays without causing a supernova, by transfering said energy point to point, relay to relay across the galaxy, leaving the burnt out husks floating in space.

Apart from the fact that the liberation fleet is now stranded on Earth and all long range travel is now gone, you still have an issue with the basis of the galatic society disapearing.

Ignoring the starvation, and plagues that will certainly follow cutting off all supply chains, you still have to deal with the loss of all commerce and trade, and the sheer loss of data. Remember the extranet required the mass relays to transfer data and that most colony worlds did not contain all the information available due to bandwith issues.

But Earth and the respective captial planets did have Quantam Entanglment Communicators; okay so they will be able to talk to each other, but transfer data on say, a power generator, or a food processor? In Mass Effect 2 EDI said that the amount of data to be transfered was miniscule compared to the extranet, as in quantam bits tiny.

But lets say that the races can somehow transfer data to each other, were are they going to get supplies? Places like war torn Earth, Palaven, and Thessia would be hard pressed to find resoures for short term surrvival let alone being able the set aside and stockpile items for long term recovery. Also even if convential FTL travel was possible, with adequate fuel and drive core discharge locations, you are still looking at least a 30 year one way trip to reach you destination. 

Fine, but lets say that the greatest surviving minds of the galaxy team up and find a way to rebuild the Mass Relays. Okay but even then, with the quantam entanglement communicators to allow the scientists to properly link up the Relays and not have them shoot the traveling ships into a sun or planet  your only really linking a war torn capital world with a war torn captial world. This of course would put you right back to square one in the finding supplies department.

But lets say that the combined supplies of the individual worlds is enough to sustain galaxtic society. Fine, but then how are the different races going to power the rebuilt relays? Remember the whole counter argument was that the relays discharged their stored energy in a non-destructive way, okay so without a power source how would the races use the relays?

And even ignoring all the issues above, you would still run into the issue as to why the relays had to be destroyed in the first place. As most other forum users have said, the relays were a tool of the Reapers and by using them galatic society was a slave to the Reapers will.

But wouldn't leaving dead Reapers (those killed in the fighting and the destroy ending), and the bits of Reaper tech in the form of husks, marauders, banshees, ect and the broken Mass Relays mean that we were still traped under the Reapers oppressive rule? Since, reverse engineering the tech would be using the Reapers means to meet our goals. 

[MetalCargo999]

Vortex13 wrote...

3. It is annoying and offensive, to me as a Christian. I mean it is hard enough to find a science fiction universe that doesn't treat my faith with outright contempt...

...When you say a charater IS Jesus however is when I begin to draw the line, especially when said character exhibits some non-Jesus behavior in the literary work. Things such as holding grudges, having sex outside of marriage, and in the case of Renegade Shepard is a raciscist SOB with homicidal/genocidal tendenciies...

I think you might be reading too much into this.  The concept of Shepard being the only one who can stop the reapers is more of a heroic typecast rather than a Christlike one, and the aspect of destiny is found in almost every culture around the world (oftentimes the word used is fate).  The concept of destiny tying into self-sacrifice for the sake of others is, however, a Christian concept, but remember that much of our Western culture is familiar with it as a result of being Christian or post-Christian nations. Therefore, heroic portraits reflecting Christlike qualities often slip into our stories, and I would argue that this is a good thing since Christ was meant to exemplify the perfect man (while being God, of course) by the original authors of the New Testament and by later Christians as well.  This doesn't mean that heroes can't perform Christlike actions because they are flawed persons, either.  Imitating Christ and being Christ are two very different concepts, and at best Shepard is an imitation.  For a good movie that talks about what you are talking about (the flawed Christ) check out "The Last Temptation of Jesus".  It's a very interesting (and ironically flawed) movie.

I appreciated just how inclusive and well thought out the Mass Effect universe was; that instead of marginalizing the aspect of religion (like the original Star Trek and TNG (some later TNG, Voyager, and DS9 being quality exceptions)), they ask some of the questions people of all faiths would have to ask themselves if other alien life existed, and sometimes in a very subtle way.  You mentioned Ashley later in your post, but I think Thane is probably the best example of the role of religion in Mass Effect.  His death scene was very emotional and profound, in my opinion.

In the end, I don't think this has much to do with the problem that is the ending.  I think that self-sacrifice is not always a good story route to go, but it does work quite well at times, along with the other concepts like destiny and fate.  Mass Effect could have used these concepts quite well for the ending in my opinion, but this particular implementation was not as well thought out as the fans would have liked for this story (unfortunately, I am one of those fans).

PS If you want to check out a good sci fi story that is written from a Christian perspective, try C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy of books.  They are an extremely unique take on the genre. 

[Chipaway111]

I made a similar point to OP awhile ago on another thread, less words and less rational reasoning but still the same point, so yeah, 100% agree with all of what they said. Aren't the in-game characters are under the impression they're fighting for THIS cycle? Sure Reapers not being around to torment everything is great for those to come, but Shepard fights for Earth, Tali for Rannoch, Liara for Thessia, Garrus for Palaven and Wrex for all those children he finally gets to have.

[Jawsomebob]

[Vortex13]

@ MetalCargo999

I can see your point about Shepard sacrificing his/her life for the galaxy, being more of a noble act to save his friends then a Christ dying for our sins metaphor. To paraphrase the Bible: The is no greater act of love than to die for one's friends.

And it might be that I am overreacting to some very poor (compared to the rest of the series) writing, but the first thing that popped in my head after seeing the Star Gazer scene was that Shepard was Jesus or at least a figure of God-like status to this future society.

Everything about Shepard's journey prior to the ending was, as you said a heroic typecast, the story of a human thrown into a huge uncarring (for the most part) galaxy and then discovering an ancient horror that no one would believe in, and then rising to the occasion as the only one who would stop it.

In the previous games, characters would state that it was Shepards experince with the Reapers, that made him/her an ideal choice for undertaking the missions to Illos, the Suicide Mission, and the Arrival DLC.

But then we get to the final conversation with the catalyst, and suddenly it changes from Shepard being the best suited for the job, to Shepard being the ONLY one cabale of completing the task. Coupled with the Star Child's words about Shepards uniqueness about him/her being the only organic to be able to break the cycle, the "blood sacrifice" of the synthesis ending (Shepards essence being used to usser in a new evolution) and the whole "playing god with the universe" chocies that are given and Shepard becomes less of a human and more of a metaphorical savior of organic kind. Hence the Jesus paralle I drew.

To me, having flawed characters make noble sacrifices and trying to do the best with what is given makes for a great universe to immerse myself in. But when an imperfect character is made to be Jesus, in the sence that he/she is the choosen one, or an exemplar on which the entire fictional universe is based then I have to draw the line.

From a spiritual perspective because such an action goes against my core beliefs of Christ being perfect, beting the only one to be able to die for my sins, and being the only way to attain eternal life, ect.

And from a science fiction nerd's perspective as such actions have already be used before, Maxtrix and Star Wars being the obvious examples.

[Sidney]

Mev186 wrote...

The thing is... in the game's story they clearly said that destroying a Mass Relay would destroy a solar system. Making some half baked reasoning why it won't this time is lazy writing. The ending is not consistent with the narrative. If they were going to destroy the relays don't have a DLC where the main story deals with the disastrous effects of destroying a mass relay. 

Dropping an atom bomb in every text book you read results in city = vapor. Thing is that isn't always true, like if you remove the parts that make the big BOOM then dropping an atom bomb = whatever it happens tp hit getting flattened. I'm sorry that previous books you read didn't cover the odd chance that the bomb would not have a fission reaction to make it go boom.

Clearly what the Crucible does is not standard relay protocol and it is unknown tech - it would have been wildly inapt for the codex to give you possiblilities about what could happen in a crucicle-ish scenario. Viewing the Codex as 100% authoritiative and correct is a mistake. It reflects what we know at the time. Entires on the Geth, Husks and Collectors all exclude information that is unknown at the time.

[Sidney]

Chipaway111 wrote...

I made a similar point to OP awhile ago on another thread, less words and less rational reasoning but still the same point, so yeah, 100% agree with all of what they said. Aren't the in-game characters are under the impression they're fighting for THIS cycle? Sure Reapers not being around to torment everything is great for those to come, but Shepard fights for Earth, Tali for Rannoch, Liara for Thessia, Garrus for Palaven and Wrex for all those children he finally gets to have.

...and they win for this cycle. The Reapers aren't around to harvest tens of billions of organics this time. They saved this cycle. They didn't save everyone in the this cycle. The game beat you over the head time after time after time that you could not save everyone. Wars have costs and the butchers bill on this one is gonna be high but in the end life wins this time and in the future.

[count_4]

Grimez7 wrote...
Screw the Yahg.

That could be a quite dangerous endeavour...

@OP: Exactly.

Modifié par count_4, 02 avril 2012 - 12:12 .

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

It's come up in a few discussions now and then from various people that, no matter what the consequences of the ending, the cycle is in fact broken, Reapers are no longer a threat and future races will be free of bad Reaper influence, being culled etc. etc.

There's one issue I have with this: I DON'T CARE.

I got into Mass Effect because I became invested into the galaxy, it's various races and the galaxy.
I don't care whether the Yahg are now free to expand across the galaxy and eat puppies or whatever it is they do.
I don't care that in 10, 20, 30,000 years there'll be some form of galactic society again and I certainly don't care what some senile old man has to say to his naive grandson 10,000 years in the future on some backwater world I don't know and don't give a damn about!

I care about this galaxy, as is. I care about Garrus, about Liara, about Kaidan, about Tali building her home on Rannoch, about Wrex raising his new children. I care about Jack and her students, about Conrad, about Bailey. I care about the Turians, the Asari, the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogans.
Heck I even care about Vega and his N7 promotion.

That's what I care about, the characters I've gotten to know for 3 games. Not some nebulous, unseen and uneeded future. For that, you might as well let the Reapers win, because it amounts to exactly the same thing in the end. This isn't just about Shepard's unhappy ending. I want a happy ending, but even if it had to be a sacrifice, then I want that sacrifice to mean something other than some alien I don't care about not fearing the robotic squids from hell.

Then there's no point in playing the game. If you don't care that nothing you'll ever do will matter, then it's pointless to try and beat the Reapers.

[Sidney]

KrunkMasterB wrote...

^Exactly. This is my whole problem with the ending. They take all the established characters, themes, and lore that have been built up over 3 games and throw them out the window, replacing it with this train wreck.

The problem with the ednings is that they have logic that fails.

1. The belief that synthetrics kill organics is silly but crazy people (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) killed a whole mess of people for crazy reasons. Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons as it it were.

2. The thing is when crazy people do crazy things it usually follows from thier view of the problem. Hate the Jews...kill them. Hate the bourgeoise...kill them. Simple direct action. The God Childs solution is ridiculous. If the threat is sythetics killing organics you could just snuff out the synthetics to save the organics. But so many problems fall from there
- why every 50,000 years we already know from the Prothean cycle and our own that AI's are built in < 50,000 years.
- Why only advanced races? If synthetics hate organics why would they only kill space faring organics? If they hate life why not stop by earth and wipe out cro-magon man? It seems a lot easier than waiting to kill them when they've got guns and they inevitably come for you. Reapers clearly think AI's are dumb or lazy.
- They leave the synthetics behind. Seriously if synthetics are gonna kill everything why wipe out advanced life and leave the robots behind to have 50,000 years to run roughshod over organics. This BTW leave open the question of what happened to, for example, the Prothean synthetics that they were fighting and had almost beaten until the Reapers showed up.

3. Shep failed. He's done. The only reason the god child gives for ending the cycle is that Shep got to the bonus level on the Citadel...but he didn't. The only reason Shep gets to the bonus level is the god child brings him there so why if the "solution" works does the god child change the plan? Why does he deicde for no good reason to send the elevator to the bonus level? Is he grading on a curve? Does close only count in horseshoes, hand grenades AND galactic extinction events?

[SaladinDheonqar]

Signed. Well said.

[pistolols]

Sidney wrote...

KrunkMasterB wrote...

^Exactly. This is my whole problem with the ending. They take all the established characters, themes, and lore that have been built up over 3 games and throw them out the window, replacing it with this train wreck.

The problem with the ednings is that they have logic that fails.

1. The belief that synthetrics kill organics is silly but crazy people (Hitler, Stalin, Mao) killed a whole mess of people for crazy reasons. Crazy people do crazy things for crazy reasons as it it were.

2. The thing is when crazy people do crazy things it usually follows from thier view of the problem. Hate the Jews...kill them. Hate the bourgeoise...kill them. Simple direct action. The God Childs solution is ridiculous. If the threat is sythetics killing organics you could just snuff out the synthetics to save the organics. But so many problems fall from there
- why every 50,000 years we already know from the Prothean cycle and our own that AI's are built in < 50,000 years.
- Why only advanced races? If synthetics hate organics why would they only kill space faring organics? If they hate life why not stop by earth and wipe out cro-magon man? It seems a lot easier than waiting to kill them when they've got guns and they inevitably come for you. Reapers clearly think AI's are dumb or lazy.
- They leave the synthetics behind. Seriously if synthetics are gonna kill everything why wipe out advanced life and leave the robots behind to have 50,000 years to run roughshod over organics. This BTW leave open the question of what happened to, for example, the Prothean synthetics that they were fighting and had almost beaten until the Reapers showed up.

3. Shep failed. He's done. The only reason the god child gives for ending the cycle is that Shep got to the bonus level on the Citadel...but he didn't. The only reason Shep gets to the bonus level is the god child brings him there so why if the "solution" works does the god child change the plan? Why does he deicde for no good reason to send the elevator to the bonus level? Is he grading on a curve? Does close only count in horseshoes, hand grenades AND galactic extinction events?

No offense but this entire post makes it pretty clear you have very little understanding of what happened.  Not to rehash the stereotype that "people that don't like the ending just didn't get it" but, yeah, it's pretty clear you didn't get it and that you do fall into that category.

The point was that starchild believes it's inevitable that organics will create synthetics, and that said synthetics will rebel.  It is a problem that required a solution.  Just wiping out synthetics doesn't solve the problem (from starchild's perspective), because "your children" will just create synthetics again.  And the cycle doesn't end because shepard "makes it to the bonus level" (lol?) it is made extremely clear that the Crucible reprogrammed the catalyst to see 3 new solutions (which mind you, are almost exactly the same 3 solutions the quarians argue over in regard to what to do with the geth, so this choice is forshadowed in ME2).

[knightnblu]

Well said OP, I couldn't agree more.

*edited to make it clear that I am in agreement witht the OP and not the post above.

Modifié par knightnblu, 02 avril 2012 - 12:43 .