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Player choice—none of it matters


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#1
Siansonea

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I know, I'm late to the party, but I figured I'd weigh in with my observations after playing through the game 2.75 times. I've been switching off, playing my super-Paragon male Vanguard and my super-Renegade female Soldier lately, after having played my Paragade male Sentinel and female Engineer through to completion. Sentinel picked blue, Engineer picked green, but this isn't a rant about the endings. We all know the endings are extremely flawed.

No, this is a rant about the middle, and this chimera called "player choice" that we've all thought we had this whole time. Turns out, our choices in the first two games meant NOTHING, or almost nothing. My Boy Scout Vanguard saved everyone in the first two games, if there was a way that he could save someone, Devon Shepard went out of his way to do it. My Soldier was just the opposite, Ashley Shepard killed, or arranged to be killed, everyone who had the opportunity to meet their maker in the first two games. She had great lulz pitting Gianna Parasini and Administrator Anoleis against each other. Good times.

So, in Mass Effect 3, the ultimate result of these wildly divergent play styles is that Devon Shepard got to have some conversations that Ashley Shepard didn't. He got to chat up Miranda, Jacob, Jack, Mordin, Garrus, Tali, Legion, Thane, Wrex, Samara and all the other fun characters Mass Effect has given us over the years. Ashley Shepard missed out on all those conversations.

But you know what? She didn't miss much.

Everything Miranda said is just flavor for the Sanctuary mission, and the resolution isn't all that different if she's not involved. Oriana sends you an email that her father is bringing her to Sanctuary, and you don't get Miranda's play-by-play on the terminals.

Jacob doesn't knock up Brynn, but there's some other dude hanging around to mimic Jacob's actions in key cutscenes. It's nice to know his being there makes such a difference for those scientists and their families. Not.

Jack's death in ME2 results in Prangley getting killed on Grissom Academy Station. Poor Prangley—oh wait, I don't care.

Mordin and Padok Wiks must have been separated at birth, because they have the exact same dedication to curing the genophage, and they even name the female krogan "Eve" independently.

Garrus being dead has almost no impact on the game whatsoever, you just miss out on some extra dialogue on Palaven's moon, and of course you don't get your downtime with him.

Everything Tali tells you on the Rannoch mission is parroted by either Shala'Raan or Daro'Xen, sometimes verbatim. Her presence might tip the scales of the situation, but it's hardly a game-changer.

If Legion is dead, or was sold to Cerberus, you run into LEGION in his place. Yep, that's right, it's a copy of Legion, who says "I'm not Legion" that was reconstructed from the bits and bobs left from Collector Station or whatever. He's got hologram thingies to recreate the N7 shoulder guard and the hole in his chest. I mean, REALLY? Other than him saying "I'm not Legion" (and even the subtitles still call him Legion), everything he says that is mission-specific is identical to what Real Legion would have said. There is literally no difference in the game whether Legion lived or died in your playthrough. I almost dropped my controller several times during those missions, and the AYFKM look on my face was pretty constant.

Thane is either there to save the salarian councilor (who behaves exactly the same whether it's the familiar Valern or the new dalatrass, regardless of the gender switch, they even hide under the same table) or Kirrahe saves him/her, or the councilor dies. That's it, other than the character stuff. Impact on bigger events: Zero (unless you're the salarian councilor, but we've already established that they might as well come out of a Pez dispenser).

Samara either tags along on your mission to Lessus, or she doesn't, but her presence doesn't change any of the events that transpire at the ardat-yakshi monastery other than some character moments between herself and her daughter Falere. She doesn't change Rila's actions, or anything that Falere does. Banshees overrun the joint, and Rila goes all martyr-tastic, and Falere can be killed or spared by Shepard in either scenario.

And it's almost laughable how much Wrex and Wreav do that is exactly the same. They could have been twins, the events related to the krogan are only superficially different, with Wreav just putting a more "after the game is over we're going to make more trouble for the galaxy" spin on his lines. Well, that's convenient, since the game doesn't address any of the events that transpire that Wreav could influence. I'm sure they'd find a way to neuter that choice too, were it ever to become an issue. 

And then there were the "key choices" that we made in the games. Remember in ME1, when we saved or killed the rachni queen? Well, other than the weirdest singing telegram of all time on Illium in ME2, the only difference that decision results in is the details of the conversation you have with the rachni queen when you run into her on Utukku. Like Legion, if she's dead, you get an ersatz replica to have a strikingly similar conversation with.

Remember Ashley and Kaidan? Well, saving one or the other was a purely cosmetic decision in the final analysis. Other than character-specific stuff like romance, they might as well be clones of each other. Each is given the same role in the Alliance, regardless of the fact that Kaidan is a major and Ashley is a lieutenant commander. They both grill you about Cerberus on Mars at the exact same time, they both have the exact same injury at the hands of Sexbot Coré, the exact same convalescence at Huerta Memorial, they both have the exact same candidacy for the Spectres, and they both have the exact same confrontation with Shepard on the Citadel after the Cerberus attack. Your relationship with Kaidan or Ashley is far more important in that conflict than the simple fact that you're dealing with one of them rather than the other. Never mind that they were in theory two separate individuals, they're reading from the same script in a lot of places. 

We've already covered the impact of your decision of whether to spare Wrex on Virmire, but what about your decision to spare the Council? Great, you either have conversations with the familar faces of Tevos, Sparatus and Valern, or you have virtually identical conversations with their successors, at the exact same points in the game. Purely cosmetic effect of that decision.

Oh, and how about recommending Anderson for Councilor? They don't even pretend to preserve that, Anderson quits if he was ever Councilor, and it makes no difference in the way events unfold.

And your Mass Effect 2 choices? Did you destroy the Collector Base, or did you save it? Doesn't matter, it comes up in conversation a few times, but the repercussions are hardly far-reaching. Did you save this character and allow this other character to die? Well, you don't see a few cameos, as I detailed above. Did you neglect to do the Shadow Broker DLC? Well, Liara got it done without you, and she's Shadow Broker now. Didn't do Overlord? Doesn't matter. Didn't do Arrival? Well, you did, you just don't remember doing it, and we all know that was on rails. 

I guess what I'm trying to say that now that it's all said and done, Mass Effect has always been more about the illusion of choice, rather than actually delivering a game that offered a real taste of a story in which your decisions as a player influenced the way the larger events in the narrative would unfold. Obviously this is just a reality of the situation, dictated by the limitations of the hardware and the business of making video games. I just wish I had realized that sooner. The clues were there, I just didn't see them. 

So yeah, the endings, how about those endings? But truth be told, even if the endings had been awesome, I'd still be very disappointed with that pesky middle. This wasn't the game I thought it would be, and maybe that game can't ever be made, or at least, not for years to come.

It's a bummer, but I've learned something, and I don't think I'll be as naïve next time. That's a good take-away, I think. :unsure:

#2
Guest_JulyAyon_*

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Just trying to finish of a me2 play through that i left to play me3 in my eagerness to be thrilled...needless to say it killed my desire to play any of them. Well pointed out about "the middle". If i take away the improved fight mechanism, which is good, i have a very watered down game play, awful dialogue and a rpg that is just a shooter thinly disguised as a rpg. After two game plays in me3, one without mp, one with mp, i'm out of love with this game. Mp was fun for a few days, but now lost interest. No replay value in the long run. Total killjoy.

#3
Siansonea

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Honestly, with all the flap about the ending, I'm shocked that more people aren't talking about all the shortcomings of the game BEFORE the ending. As great as many of the sequences are in ME3, the fact that they play out virtually the same regardless of your player decisions really takes away from the experience.

#4
jds1bio

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Siansonea II wrote...

Honestly, with all the flap about the ending, I'm shocked that more people aren't talking about all the shortcomings of the game BEFORE the ending. As great as many of the sequences are in ME3, the fact that they play out virtually the same regardless of your player decisions really takes away from the experience.


I guess you didn't play through Tuchanka or Rannoch then.

#5
RenownedRyan

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Well put. Check out the link in my signature.

#6
RenownedRyan

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jds1bio wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Honestly, with all the flap about the ending, I'm shocked that more people aren't talking about all the shortcomings of the game BEFORE the ending. As great as many of the sequences are in ME3, the fact that they play out virtually the same regardless of your player decisions really takes away from the experience.


I guess you didn't play through Tuchanka or Rannoch then.


Funny.  It's been the same on every file I've had, regardless of prior decisions. Maybe I bought a broken one.

#7
recentio

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I actually really liked Legion 2.0. It made for a very interesting dynamic where he remembered Shepard Commander, but not entirely...

#8
Ashilana

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Siansonea II wrote...
It's a bummer, but I've learned something, and I don't think I'll be as naïve next time. That's a good take-away, I think. :unsure:


Sadly, I agree with you on your rant.  Choices before ME3 have limited effect on the game.  I would argue that Mordin and his replacement is a bigger deal than you claim, if only because his replacement is a social darwinist (and that is a creepy philosophy... made it easy to off him on my second character).   And I think Wreav was a pretty starkly different character than Wrex. 

Otherwise, most of the replacements were just that, replacements to save budget.

#9
Siansonea

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jds1bio wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Honestly, with all the flap about the ending, I'm shocked that more people aren't talking about all the shortcomings of the game BEFORE the ending. As great as many of the sequences are in ME3, the fact that they play out virtually the same regardless of your player decisions really takes away from the experience.


I guess you didn't play through Tuchanka or Rannoch then.


I have, and if that's your idea of player choices having an impact, well, I'm happy for you. The missions play out the same way, you just get some War Asset differences and you can either destroy the geth or destroy the quarians, and stuff you did (mainly your actions toward Tali) influence the outcome. But the mission is the same. Either Tali or Daro'Xen chirps at you during the mission, and you end up talking to a Reaper who spouts faux-inscrutable nonsense at you.

Oh, and Tuchanka? Yeah, if you destroyed Maelon's data, Eve (named thus by either Mordin or Padok Wiks) will either live or die. Oh, yeah, I just met her, I don't care. Oh, and if you saved Wrex, the krogan will be Politeagon going forward, but if you saved Wreav, the krogan will be Rudeagade going forward. Honestly, most of what Wrex and Wreav say is virtually identical, and their actions are pretty much the same too. Minor differences in cutscenes at best. But it's not like saving Wrex changes the whole game, making the Tuchanka mission play out dramatically differently, you still lure a Thresher Maw to attack the mini-Reaper in both instances, and you do the mission at the exact same point in the game.

#10
Siansonea

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Ashilana wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
It's a bummer, but I've learned something, and I don't think I'll be as naïve next time. That's a good take-away, I think. :unsure:


Sadly, I agree with you on your rant.  Choices before ME3 have limited effect on the game.  I would argue that Mordin and his replacement is a bigger deal than you claim, if only because his replacement is a social darwinist (and that is a creepy philosophy... made it easy to off him on my second character).   And I think Wreav was a pretty starkly different character than Wrex. 

Otherwise, most of the replacements were just that, replacements to save budget.


Oh yeah, their characters are different, but big deal? They fill the exact same role in the game, doing the exact same actions in the exact same sequence with the exact same animations. Only the flavor of them is different. Oh, and the effect on your War Assets, which is really just a Health Bar for your final mission.

#11
Siansonea

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recentio wrote...

I actually really liked Legion 2.0. It made for a very interesting dynamic where he remembered Shepard Commander, but not entirely...


Again, that's just character flavor, but as far as influence on events? Nil. Same basic series of events, same basic reactions to Shepard's actions, same exact dialogue in most instances. They couldn't even be bothered to put Reclaimed Legion in a new platform body, they had to "holographically recreate" the damage and repair to Legion's original body. Ugh.

#12
Mandemon

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True, but these things don't nullify entire series like the ending, because at least you get cosmetic differences.

Still... more and more I look at ME3 more it seems that the idea of "artistic integrity" became too popular and they decided "screw the past, let's make this stand-alone game!" because that it is. You don't need 3 previous games to change anything deeply. everything still happens. You only get cosmetic differences.

#13
o Ventus

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Gospel if I've ever seen it.

#14
leapingmonkeys

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Thank you for posting the details. This has been exactly my primary complaint with ME3. The ending is simply the point at which it becomes irrevocably obvious that one's prior choices mean nothing, but the fundamental problem ran throughout the entire game.

In terms of game-play experience, the quests were all the same with some of the names changed to protect the dead. The only impact of the prior decisions were deltas, usually small deltas, in the amount of TMS that one acquired. But TMS has no visible impact on the game play. TMS determines EMS which *may* reduce the number of final choices from three to a smaller number (and as far as Ican tell, irrespective of how one played ME1/ME2 one can always get to 5600 TMS which gives you 2800 EMS which is all that is required to have all three choices - meaning that nothing but ME3 matters in terms of which final choices are possible). But they are the same choices every time, irrespective of what you've done before. In addition, the consequences of those three decisions are almost identical - Reapers gone in some way, mass relays destroyed, crew stranded or dead or MIA - and then the final cut scene is identical (stargazer and kid set 10,000 years in the future wondering when they will ever get back to the stars).  So really, there are not three choices - there is only one choice.

That hardly lives up to the pre-release hype that "each players experience will be unique" and that one's prior decisions will impact the outcome of ME3.

The real problem with ME3 is that it railroaded one into a single ending. All the other problems stem from that fundamental flaw. It doesn't help that the final ending is not only fixed, but reflects a nihilistic perspective irrespective of how one played one's Shepard.

Modifié par leapingmonkeys, 01 avril 2012 - 08:05 .


#15
Bleachrude

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Siansonea II wrote...

recentio wrote...

I actually really liked Legion 2.0. It made for a very interesting dynamic where he remembered Shepard Commander, but not entirely...


Again, that's just character flavor, but as far as influence on events? Nil. Same basic series of events, same basic reactions to Shepard's actions, same exact dialogue in most instances. They couldn't even be bothered to put Reclaimed Legion in a new platform body, they had to "holographically recreate" the damage and repair to Legion's original body. Ugh.


That's not actually true...

Legion 2.0 makes it harder to resolve the geth/quarian war peacefully since one of the "points" is having Legion surive the suicide mission...

#16
cogsandcurls

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The thing about these kind of branching narratives is that it's always going to be limited in scope, and they're always going to have "foldbacks" - ways to reroute all divergent choices into one scenario for ease of keeping the narrative on track.

That said, Mass Effect 3 was missing something that DA2 did, and even ME1 did - if you didn't have a certain history, it locked you out of entire missions and opened another to compensate. So by being a Colonist in ME1, I got to talk an escaped slave down from suicide, but I didn't get to go and meet my Mum. In DA2, I got to go and find Nathaniel again, but in the playthrough where I killed him on Awakening I got some kind of dwarf-rescue mission instead. Small things, but I did note that ME3 didn't seem to have anything like this.

#17
Kilshrek

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I think, OP, that not many have bothered playing through multiple times after experiencing the ending. I'm only offering an opinion as to why there hasn't been more noise made on the lack of choice.

I suppose for the most part things are masked reasonably well to the average player, and if there were great endings people would be in a more forgiving mood. You mileage on forgiveness may vary. But even if the middle were cookie cutter, having a branching end sequence can go some way to papering over the cracks of the middle, and leaving the player feeling satisfied with a job well done.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 01 avril 2012 - 08:03 .


#18
MassEffect762

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Player choice or rather consequences = Expensive

EA = Cheap
Mac Walters = Clueless
Casey Hudson = Liar

ME2 and DA2 should have given it away imo.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 01 avril 2012 - 08:09 .


#19
Jaron Oberyn

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Well said. Now go look at DX:HR, a game with real choice and character control.

-Polite

#20
jlb524

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Choices never mattered...ME2 taught us that.

#21
Fenrisfil

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To do the game properly with all the choices causing major differences you would have to make the equivelent of 4 or 5 games when they made ME2 and about 40 full games by the time they did ME3. We're a long way from being able to have something like that.

In some cases I think they did well and dialogue/cosmetic changes are acceptably well done. But there are a few instances where they certainly could have done better. I can forgive Legion Mk2 because you can only get that from a "bad" ending from ME2. That's a result of past failure, not a indeterminate decision. The decisions such as the Rachni queen, saving the council and making Anderson councillor are big let downs. Sure the Rachni Queen and saving the council affects your potential war resources, but that's just a number.

#22
Heather Cline

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I agree with the OP. We were lied to about the game and ME3 is mediocre at best.

#23
Torrible

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PoliteAssasin wrote...

Well said. Now go look at DX:HR, a game with real choice and character control.

-Polite


You must have played a different game from the one I did. How exactly do the choices differ from ME3? 

-Nickname

Modifié par Torrible, 01 avril 2012 - 09:22 .


#24
Mr.House

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Choices never mattered in ME2, did people really think they would have mattered in ME3?

#25
Bleachrude

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Fenrisfil wrote...

To do the game properly with all the choices causing major differences you would have to make the equivelent of 4 or 5 games when they made ME2 and about 40 full games by the time they did ME3. We're a long way from being able to have something like that.

In some cases I think they did well and dialogue/cosmetic changes are acceptably well done. But there are a few instances where they certainly could have done better. I can forgive Legion Mk2 because you can only get that from a "bad" ending from ME2. That's a result of past failure, not a indeterminate decision. The decisions such as the Rachni queen, saving the council and making Anderson councillor are big let downs. Sure the Rachni Queen and saving the council affects your potential war resources, but that's just a number.


This.

I think Bioware simply bit off more than it could chew...If you look at ME1 for example, the game plays out the exact same way no matter you're background except for one character specific questline...

For example, why couldn't we try to save the workd one by Saren at Virmire and thus not need the showdown with Wrex?

The Witcher2 has one choice that directly affects the 2nd act (yet even here, the two different 2nd acts come together at the beginning of act 3) but the smaller choices don't change the act the following act either way (it's interesting that CDProjet has been rather cagey as to whether or not save game is going to be important for Witcher 3)

But thats having just one choice but having 3 affect the game simultaneously?

That literally is 6 different possibilites you have to write for already...Throw in Wrex and the VS and now you're ALREADY at 10 permutations...and if you want it to be more "important" to the plot , that is, more than just dialogue differences, how exactly do you write this storyline?