299 réponses à ce sujet

[recentio]

I think part of it is people expressing their feelings, and then being told (by a disrespectful few) that their feelings are invalid. That always gets people riled up.

[Quietness]

Im starting to think this is the difference between pro and anti. A lot of pro is using headcannon to fill the gaps , where anti is looking at the gaps and going "well the codex states ____ and ____ so this horrifying thing happens or this shouldnt exist."

This doesnt exactly make either side wrong, but this does make it virtually impossible to see eye to eye as its looking at the same thing from 2 completely different vantage points.

[I am KROGAN]

OP, I think you missed the fact that this is the internet, trolls gonna troll man, trolls gonna troll

[o Ventus]

I'll be 100% honest for a second here.

I have never once met someone who DID like the endings, provide actual reasoning or logic behind their thought process. It *always* boils down to "artistic integrity".

Most people who dislike the endings (or loathe them, in my case) I've seen present legitimate, objective evidence as to why the endings are actually bad.

That said, I've seen just as much BS from the anti-ending party too, and to be frank, it's typically the same group of people posting the objective flaws in the endings.

[FabricatedWookie]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Alot of it is simply arguments getting out of hand.

Liking or not liking the endings is to a degree a subjective matter of opinion. There's a point where defending your position overlaps with attacking someone else's, and that's where the trouble starts. If you genuinely can't even see or understand the other persons viewpoint, then it's human nature to demonise the other person as 'wrong'.

I personally think we should all stand together on this subject though. Even if you love very single aspect of the ending, it's clear most people don't, and in a game that is built on choice, where we were promised multiple different endings and outcomes that would fit our Shepards stories, to end up with one ending in 3 colours, all with the same grim dark tone and barely distinguishable variations is a terrible thing, even if those three variations are exactly what you wanted.

I'd implore the pro enders to stand by their fellow fans, and help us all to get the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment from he series we all love as hey have now. Remember this is always going to be an OPTIONAL DLC, even if it gets made, no one will be forced to get it if by don't feel he need for it. And even if you are happy, is more variety in the endings really a bad thing? Won't it just give you more replay value, more paths to take your Shepard on? More Mass Effect to see and experience?

This isnt an us vs them scenario, this is just making sure we all get the things we not just want, but we were actually promised.

The trouble is humans have a tendency to invest parts of themselves in brands, which companies love. There will always be a section of people who can love the ending because it is from the game they love, and any remark's about the game's ending will be taken as a personal affront. It works with the retake mass effect crowd too. It is the whole basis for "consol wars" and as a consumer trend it is counter productive to actually getting better products.

[UrgentArchengel]

Thread is full of win. Why can't we all just play nice.

[Dragoonlordz]

There is bias, the ones who dislike the ending tend to not get retorts from those who feel the same way, they (many not all) agree with almost anything others on their side say and ignore all the flaming and insults towards the other side. On the same token the ones who like the ending get attacked by the other group, they agree with ones who feel the same way and sometimes ignore the insults towards the other group. The ones who like the ending only get attacked by ones who hate it and vice versa.

As for myself I have never actually said the anti-ending group "don't get it" or that they don't have valid points "for them" regarding their enjoyment or lack of for the endings. Yet the minute I post anything they disagree with the insults start flying and every man, woman and child who has been lurking in the background who disliked anything I have ever said comes out the closet with insults such as troll or putting words in my mouth to try and dismiss anything I say.

The one difference is however in how each side treats the developers. The pro ending ones do not insult the developers even if some insult other fans, while the anti-enders do insult the developers (even if not all) as well as other fans, as John said on his wall yesterday he had so many cussing at him in PMs that he just had enough for one day. Then you have twitter and facebook, wiki and articles where they are also attacked, insulted and taken to extremes by those who hate something never those who like it since ones who like it are happy and the ones that hate it are angry and cannot respond with adequate emotional self control in some cases.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[alx119]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There is bias, the ones who dislike the ending tend to not get retorts from those who feel the same way, they (many not all) agree with almost anything others on their side say and ignore all the flaming and insults towards the other side. On the same token the ones who like the ending get attacked by the other group, they agree with ones who feel the same way and sometimes ignore the insults towards the other group. The ones who like the ending only get attacked by ones who hate it and vice versa.

As for myself I have never actually said the anit-ending group "don't get it" or that they don't have valid points "for them" regarding their enjoyment or lack of for the endings. Yet the minute I post anything they disagree with the insults start flying and every man, woman and child who has been lurking in the background who disliked anything I have ever said comes out the closet with insults such as troll or putting words in my mouth to try and dismiss anything I say.

The one difference is however in how each side treats the developers. The pro ending ones do not insult the developers even if some insult other fans, while the anti-enders do insult the developers (even if not all) as well as other fans, as John said on his wall yesterday he had so many cussing at him in PMs that he just had enough for one day. Then you have twitter and facebook, wiki and articles where they are also attacked, insulted and taken to extremes by those who hate something never those who like it since ones who like it are happy and the ones that hate it are angry and cannot respond with adequate emotional self control in some cases.

I hope you're not saying that when anti enders imply that the devs did a very bad job at the ending that's "insulting" them, because that's just stating an opinion based on the facts they see. Disagreeing with the way the devs did the endings is one thing, insulting them, is another thing, that I don't agree nor condone. 

It's understandable though, people is bound to get pissed by the endings, if you like them, lucky you, but if you don't, think that it's the ending for 5 years of emotional investments in the characters of the franchise. It is understandable why they'd be somewhat angry about it, and they'd resort to personal insults. It's not a good excuse, resorting to violence has never a good excuse behind it, of course. But it is still understandable, and why I wouldn't say they are "bad people"  nor to disregard the people that are somewhat in the same boat as them. 

[Dragoonlordz]

alx119 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There is bias, the ones who dislike the ending tend to not get retorts from those who feel the same way, they (many not all) agree with almost anything others on their side say and ignore all the flaming and insults towards the other side. On the same token the ones who like the ending get attacked by the other group, they agree with ones who feel the same way and sometimes ignore the insults towards the other group. The ones who like the ending only get attacked by ones who hate it and vice versa.

As for myself I have never actually said the anit-ending group "don't get it" or that they don't have valid points "for them" regarding their enjoyment or lack of for the endings. Yet the minute I post anything they disagree with the insults start flying and every man, woman and child who has been lurking in the background who disliked anything I have ever said comes out the closet with insults such as troll or putting words in my mouth to try and dismiss anything I say.

The one difference is however in how each side treats the developers. The pro ending ones do not insult the developers even if some insult other fans, while the anti-enders do insult the developers (even if not all) as well as other fans, as John said on his wall yesterday he had so many cussing at him in PMs that he just had enough for one day. Then you have twitter and facebook, wiki and articles where they are also attacked, insulted and taken to extremes by those who hate something never those who like it since ones who like it are happy and the ones that hate it are angry and cannot respond with adequate emotional self control in some cases.

I hope you're not saying that when anti enders imply that the devs did a very bad job at the ending that's "insulting" them, because that's just stating an opinion based on the facts they see. Disagreeing with the way the devs did the endings is one thing, insulting them, is another thing, that I don't agree nor condone. 

It's understandable though, people is bound to get pissed by the endings, if you like them, lucky you, but if you don't, think that it's the ending for 5 years of emotional investments in the characters of the franchise. It is understandable why they'd be somewhat angry about it, and they'd resort to personal insults. It's not a good excuse, resorting to violence has never a good excuse behind it, of course. But it is still understandable, and why I wouldn't say they are "bad people"  nor to disregard the people that are somewhat in the same boat as them. 

I think you realise or should the difference and why I said insult not criticism. Also 'understandable' is an excuse, it is not a valid one in how you treat the people you chose to buy products from or in life in general. While they may not be bad people they are doing a bad thing.

[Joolazoo]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There is bias, the ones who dislike the ending tend to not get retorts from those who feel the same way, they (many not all) agree with almost anything others on their side say and ignore all the flaming and insults towards the other side. On the same token the ones who like the ending get attacked by the other group, they agree with ones who feel the same way and sometimes ignore the insults towards the other group. The ones who like the ending only get attacked by ones who hate it and vice versa.

As for myself I have never actually said the anti-ending group "don't get it" or that they don't have valid points "for them" regarding their enjoyment or lack of for the endings. Yet the minute I post anything they disagree with the insults start flying and every man, woman and child who has been lurking in the background who disliked anything I have ever said comes out the closet with insults such as troll or putting words in my mouth to try and dismiss anything I say.

The one difference is however in how each side treats the developers. The pro ending ones do not insult the developers even if some insult other fans, while the anti-enders do insult the developers (even if not all) as well as other fans, as John said on his wall yesterday he had so many cussing at him in PMs that he just had enough for one day. Then you have twitter and facebook, wiki and articles where they are also attacked, insulted and taken to extremes by those who hate something never those who like it since ones who like it are happy and the ones that hate it are angry and cannot respond with adequate emotional self control in some cases.

obviously the pro-enders wouldn't insult the people they agree with. at this point you are basically insulting the Anti-enders because every post I've seen you make has basically been about how you are mercilessly torn apart anytime you try to voice your opinion, acting as if we really care that much and are waiting to bash you.

honestly...it's laughable you need to make the distinction. That's like saying that the people who are happy with a product aren't complaining to the creators, and the people who aren't are...no duh.

[Dragoonlordz]

Joolazoo wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There is bias, the ones who dislike the ending tend to not get retorts from those who feel the same way, they (many not all) agree with almost anything others on their side say and ignore all the flaming and insults towards the other side. On the same token the ones who like the ending get attacked by the other group, they agree with ones who feel the same way and sometimes ignore the insults towards the other group. The ones who like the ending only get attacked by ones who hate it and vice versa.

As for myself I have never actually said the anti-ending group "don't get it" or that they don't have valid points "for them" regarding their enjoyment or lack of for the endings. Yet the minute I post anything they disagree with the insults start flying and every man, woman and child who has been lurking in the background who disliked anything I have ever said comes out the closet with insults such as troll or putting words in my mouth to try and dismiss anything I say.

The one difference is however in how each side treats the developers. The pro ending ones do not insult the developers even if some insult other fans, while the anti-enders do insult the developers (even if not all) as well as other fans, as John said on his wall yesterday he had so many cussing at him in PMs that he just had enough for one day. Then you have twitter and facebook, wiki and articles where they are also attacked, insulted and taken to extremes by those who hate something never those who like it since ones who like it are happy and the ones that hate it are angry and cannot respond with adequate emotional self control in some cases.

obviously the pro-enders wouldn't insult the people they agree with. at this point you are basically insulting the Anti-enders because every post I've seen you make has basically been about how you are mercilessly torn apart anytime you try to voice your opinion, acting as if we really care that much and are waiting to bash you.

honestly...it's laughable you need to make the distinction. That's like saying that the people who are happy with a product aren't complaining to the creators, and the people who aren't are...no duh.

Read it again. Also you proved my point. Notice how I said the same thing for both sides yet you treated it as an insult where was none.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[The Anti-Saint]

The fanbase is set on insanity mode...and can't turn the douchcoc-kery off! Oh noez!

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 01 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Sharn01]

I dont think things are going to settle down. Forums in general can sometimes bring out the worst in people. The fact that the people who disliked the ending and tried to organize against it where from the very beginning labeled as silly little entitled whiners who where too stupid to understand Bioware's flawless artistic vision by actual media outlets and some trolls on the forum picked up on is and kept it going blew things even more out of proportion then nomral.

[VoodooDrackus]

iamthedave3 wrote...

VoodooDrackus wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...



Definition of "Plot Hole" from Wikipedia:
     A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

And you skip over the most important part of that definition:
"While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome."
That is relevant since so many people are using plot hole loosely to try and invalidate a great journey/story.

Yes, which is why the star child's existence is not necessarily a plot hole - though it does open up possible retrospective plot holes and poses at least a half dozen questions - but the Normandy flight IS a plot hole, as is the presence of squad mates on the ground on the Normandy post-crash.

There's a series of events implied there that defy explanation and which the story provides no answers for, which goes against prior characterization and defy common sense at multiple junctures.

No, the Normandy escape and crash is not a plot hole. It is not essential to the story. It isn't even needed. Bioware could have just ended the game right before showing the Normandy fleeing and it would be the same result. You made a choice on how the galaxy is going to function going forward. That is the ending of Shepards story. The Normandy scene is an epilogue, extra filler to give you added closure.

And besides it is not that big of a leap to figure out how the Normandy is fleeing and how the people stepping off of it relate to your Shepard. It does not defy explanation nor does it defy common sense. Right there that implies that anything that I try to explain is already doomed to failure. That is a problem, since it already sets the dialogue up to an obvious confrontation. That is what keeps breeding the animosity.

I agree it doesn't help anyone to keep aggravating everyone from either side, however right now all I see is the "anti-enders" doing nothing but aggravating anyone who has a view that is considered pro-ending. It's fairly easy to see how that pans out, the ones who like the ending are reluctant to even try and express their viewpoint for fear of just being drowned out by all of the negativity, attacks, etc. When they do respond, their anger for constantly being attacked and seeing a developer that they love being attacked may come out in their posts. It is a passion on either side. It's a vicious cycle. It doesn't help when statements are made that make any refuting doomed to be an attack on that viewpoint.

So many times I just want to say things without filtering them, but instead I agonize over every little word, every little phrase to tone down or remove any rhetoric that may make it's way to the page.  Sometimes I let morsels slip through that could be seen as a passive agressive attack I suppose. You know, let some venting of the shuttle bays happen.

ahhh, out of place context. I have brought nothing to the table.

[StormenDK]

SaleemRa wrote...

I dont get all the insults? K so you like/dont like the ending or how it was written, good for you. Anti enders call pro enders hipster etc, pro enders keep saying you dont "get it", for what? Everyone has different tastes. Some ppl like curry others dont life's like that.

Instead of ragging on someones opinion, post lots on why you like/dont like it. All these "questions" to the pro enders are really the Anti's trying to show off perceived "intelectual superiority" as well since your literally calling the Pro's out to verbally spar with them. Your being just as "hipster" or whatever as the the guys who said you dont "get it".

To the Pro's - enough already with the "you dont get it" jabs. Internet forums are not a good communication tool, ppl cant really guage what your saying since there is no body language etc. You know the Anti's dont like it so stop already, just say you like it and what you like about it and be done.

Personally I like the endings but I dont think that there is anything to "get". I like them because of the reasons I mentioned in this thread (pg 20 btw). If Bioware keeps the endings I'll be fine with it - not the end of the world. If they change it great, another reason to play again. Either way I spent a lot of money on this game so I WILL get my money's worth out of it and be entertained.

The end of the day YOU and only YOU can control how much you enjoy something - its the reason why some ppl can enjoy crap movies or poorly written pulp fiction. Everybody stop getting your knickers in a twist!

Quite simple ... people are dicks on the internet.

It is much easier to send derogatory comments or insults or whatever when you are not face-to-face. It is as if anonymity gives people the right to spew whatever bile they want towards others who don't share their view-points.

If these "discussions" happened in real life, most would either be much more civil or just leave the discussion before it boils over. But here they are free to keep flaming each other on page after page, until it gets so out of hand that Mods have to step in to restore order .... until the same argument spills over into another thread.

I do wish people would just let people have their opinions to themselves, and unless it is open discussion thread, just leave the opinion alone.

[lillitheris]

VoodooDrackus wrote...
No, the Normandy escape and crash is not a plot hole.

Yes, it is.

It is not essential to the story.

Yes, it is (for many people the characters are THE most important thing), but even if it isn't - that's irrelevant. Because it's in the story, essential or not.

It isn't even needed. Bioware could have just ended the game right before
showing the Normandy fleeing and it would be the same result.

But they didn't.

I'm sorry, but this kind of argument is SO shoddy that it really riles me up. If you want to argue that you liked it despite the plot hole with the Normandy, that's perfectly valid.

[lillitheris]

StormenDK wrote...
It is much easier to send derogatory comments or insults or whatever when you are not face-to-face. It is as if anonymity gives people the right to spew whatever bile they want towards others who don't share their view-points.

If these "discussions" happened in real life, most would either be much more civil or just leave the discussion before it boils over. But here they are free to keep flaming each other on page after page, until it gets so out of hand that Mods have to step in to restore order .... until the same argument spills over into another thread.

There's actually an interesting argument to be made here in defense of unvarnished arguing. Now, obviously, we have to disregard the “lol n00b d*k”-style insults (it's a skill that many need to work on), but there's a level of appropriate discourse between that and your regular face-to-face discussion, which is usually rife with unnecessary politics, little white lies, and handwaving. That doesn't – and arguably shouldn't – fly on the internet. There's a deep cultural clash between people who are newer to text-based arguing; anyone who's really gotten online in the last few years is still unused to it. (And please don't take that as an insult in any way; it's sort of like going to live in a foreign country: you won't fit in like a native immediately. You gradually get deeper into the society, start understanding the unspoken rules others have grown up to, idioms, so on.)

Personally, the arguments – that we've astoundingly seen even in this thread – in the style of “it's all explained, you just didn't get it, but I'm not going to tell you which parts exactly” are the worst offenders in textual debates. It might get get a pass face-to-face, but not here.

So, that's one perspective. Is it really a better style of arguing? Dunno, but it seems that most problems aren't caused by that – they're caused by, if you will, people not adhering to it.

I do wish people would just let people have their opinions to themselves, and unless it is open discussion thread, just leave the opinion alone.

I'm pretty sure that posting on a discussion forum isn't “having an opinion to themselves”

[AtreiyaN7]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Alot of it is simply arguments getting out of hand.

Liking or not liking the endings is to a degree a subjective matter of opinion. There's a point where defending your position overlaps with attacking someone else's, and that's where the trouble starts. If you genuinely can't even see or understand the other persons viewpoint, then it's human nature to demonise the other person as 'wrong'.

I personally think we should all stand together on this subject though. Even if you love very single aspect of the ending, it's clear most people don't, and in a game that is built on choice, where we were promised multiple different endings and outcomes that would fit our Shepards stories, to end up with one ending in 3 colours, all with the same grim dark tone and barely distinguishable variations is a terrible thing, even if those three variations are exactly what you wanted.

I'd implore the pro enders to stand by their fellow fans, and help us all to get the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment from he series we all love as hey have now. Remember this is always going to be an OPTIONAL DLC, even if it gets made, no one will be forced to get it if by don't feel he need for it. And even if you are happy, is more variety in the endings really a bad thing? Won't it just give you more replay value, more paths to take your Shepard on? More Mass Effect to see and experience?

This isnt an us vs them scenario, this is just making sure we all get the things we not just want, but we were actually promised.

I've never been against the idea of alternative endings, and I'm personally still fine with alternative endings being added in. Despite being one of those people who are okay with the current endings, I've always felt that it might be interesting to have more options.

However, I'm not about to stand on the sidelines with pom-poms cheering people on like they're my brothers-in-arms when they're just not. I've had my fill of the more insulting threads and have been eminently unimpressed by the behavior I've seen from some people in the movement. Emphasis on some by the way - not everyone's like that - but there have been more than enough of them to sour me on the whole movement.

At any rate, I agree with the OP who seems to be quite sensible. The level of animosity is ridiculous and unnecessary - especially over a bloody game. Everyone should be able to act like adults and discuss things without being quite so petty.

[Maria Caliban]

SaleemRa wrote...

I dont get all the insults?

You might not be ready for the internet. Or politics. Or humanity.

[HenchxNarf]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

It's quite popular to call people who like the ending "not proper fans" if you don't like the ending.

Who are the real trolls?

Or that we're dumb, we only play FPS, we only played ME3, we don'y -get- the story... the list goes on and on.

I have noticed that the anti-ending crowd seems to point fingers but not realize what they, too, have said. But that goes for both sides.

When pro-enders try and explain why we like the endings or explain why we think they're fine. All we get is "SPACE MAGIC!" and "SPECULATIONS FOR EVERYONE!" or the whole, that's headcanon bs. There's clues in the game that explain the ending. The codexes from ME1, the Reapers itself in ME3. Arrival. The information is there. And it explains much of these "plotholes" people say they found in the game.

[VoodooDrackus]

lillitheris wrote...

VoodooDrackus wrote...
No, the Normandy escape and crash is not a plot hole.

Yes, it is.

It is not essential to the story.

Yes, it is (for many people the characters are THE most important thing), but even if it isn't - that's irrelevant. Because it's in the story, essential or not.

It isn't even needed. Bioware could have just ended the game right before
showing the Normandy fleeing and it would be the same result.

But they didn't.

I'm sorry, but this kind of argument is SO shoddy that it really riles me up. If you want to argue that you liked it despite the plot hole with the Normandy, that's perfectly valid.

Ehhh, do I want to get into this? Should I get into this further? Probably not, but I will partially indulge you.

If that is your idea of a plot hole then you have a problem with all narratives everywhere. Everywhere there are plot holes based on your loose definition.

The following are plot holes in Mass Effect based on your reasoning:
We never see the fleet actually go through the Mass Relays, we only see them come out by a mass relay near earth. Plot Hole.
We never see Anderson travel to London, only hear about it. Plot Hole.
The Space Hamster is not where I left him in his cage and I have to find him. Plot Hole.
I never see Joker and EDI leave the Normandy to get on the Presidium Commons. Plot Hole.
Joker and EDI are now hanging out in the bar. Plot Hole.
The Human Reaper husk is now in the Illusive mans' base. Plot Hole.
Garrus ends up on earth when he was on the Normandy near earth before and was not travelling in the same shuttle as me. Plot Hole.

I can go on and on, go into detail about all of ME1 and ME2 plot holes based on your definition.

The point is the issues you have with the story that you are claiming are plot holes help embellish a story, give it flavor, they are not essential to the stories outcome. If a writer gave you every little minutae of detail, you would be bored out of your mind (well maybe, don't really know you). In the day where ADD reigns, so many would give up a game in the first few hours by being completely bored to death with every little detail.

I realize that comes off as passive aggressive and I am sorry for that. I'm trying to help you see how we don't need to know every little detail to understand the over-arching narrative. We get what happens, we may not like our choices, but we can see that we have to make a hard choice to decide the fate of the galaxy. 

Joker made a decision to save part of your crew, your LI and someone you relied on in combat. They crashed somewhere and now have a new life there. We don't need to know everything. He probably broke off and went looking for anyone he could find after Harbinger took off from the beams' base. I know I didn't see anyone I knew around me when I got up, they could could have left, assumed that the beam just obliterated me or something to that effect. Who knows how long I was out before I woke up after being hit or after I was transported to the citadel. We will more than likely get more info on what happened in those last moments in future DLC, games, books, etc. Or we can imagine how it went down. It leaves a mystery on what actually happened, it does not make it a plot hole though. 

[MrNighttime]

Militarized wrote...

While I concede that liking or not liking the ending is technically subjective, I'm also of the opinion that the people who DO like it have either not played ME1 or ME2 or do not have good critical thinking skills. Mostly what I hear about it is that it is "deep".... which isn't subjective in my opinion, it isn't deep. Which shows a lack of being read IMO.

But I'm an openly admitted ahole so that's just me.

I think it has more to do with the level of emotional involvement in the game ( and there will always be those who are exceptions) but I have been (about 60 time a minute at last count) and could be wrong again.

[MrNighttime]

GlassElephant wrote...

I just stay out of it. That's my general rule when it comes to internet flame wars- they're not worth it. I hate the ending, but if someone else likes it I'm not going to give them a hard time about it. I'm happy that there are people who enjoy the ending. I wish that I could have too.

Agreed this is dead on for me.