299 réponses à ce sujet

[Banelash]

Most fustration for anti enders are the pro enders are calling them whiners, denying all reasons raise like bioware will never do wrong, and saying anti are the minority

[Robhuzz]

chester013 wrote...

Well a lot of pro-anti (slightly more with pro enders I have noticed) tend to post something insulting about people with different opinions. Then the flame war starts.

It also does not help that whenever a pro ending thread comes up it's usually the art argument being thrown around and some 'congratulations BioWare' at the end. After that the OP never shows up again and doesn't even take the time to write down what he or she likes about the ending. Guess why so many anti ending people don't take the other side seriously?

For the record: I absolutely hate the ending and all the lies BioWare has fed us and I cannot fathom how anyone could possibly like the ending, BUT I don't go about flaming people because of it...

[SaleemRa]

Militarized wrote...

While I concede that liking or not liking the ending is technically subjective, I'm also of the opinion that the people who DO like it have either not played ME1 or ME2 or do not have good critical thinking skills. 

You sir have just insulted someone on the internet and done so intentionally.

[Militarized]

Dresden867 wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

Yeah, but, Dresden, it's kinda hard to find a middle ground with this. I mean, either you're for change, or you're not. There IS no mddle ground. The most miniscule of changes is still a change nonetheless.

 Is. I would like minor clarifications on the pieces that do not presently make sense (from my perspective). I would like a bit of epilogue material for some closure.  I do not feel the whole thing needs scrapped and rewritten.

 I am for -very minor- selective change, but do not regard the existence of the Starchild as the end of the franchise.

 To me, that seems like a middle space between some very extreme positions (such as Indoc Theory)

That's an interestingly optimistic view of the star child considering the information gathered so far about the Crucible = a new dark age no matter which ending you pick and the stargazer scene is 10k years in the future with no space travel. 

It's pretty easy to see they chose the stereotypical and overused "reset" button to send people back to a "simpler time". It's just weaksauce writing IMO. The Adam and Eve reference insulted my intelligence as well, but that's just how I felt I guess. 

SaleemRa wrote...

You sir have just insulted someone on the internet and done so intentionally. 

 

It's not an insult, it's my subjective opinon. 

See what I did thur? 

Modifié par Militarized, 01 avril 2012 - 09:30 .

[xsdob]

I would advise avoiding this issue. A long time ago i tried to ask this question and put out a similar stace and was flamed and trolled and questioned until i just gave up and left the thread i was posting in.

basically the lines have been drawn, people have embraced the us vs them approach, and people don't want to accept that a middle ground exist anymore. So if you don't want to screw up and get sucked into flamewar after flamewar than either don't post or learn to do what i've been trying to do and grow apathetic towards all the posters here and stick to neutral topic surfing, It may just be what saves your sanity in the end.

[Dresden867]

Mil: I gotta ask: why you gotta pick a fight, exactly? I -very carefully- only said "I don't regard the Starchild as the end of the franchise" and you are choosing to:

1) put words in my mouth
2) then claim those words are "too optimistic"

[ZombifiedJake]

What it comes down to is, regardless of the pro/anti stance, everybody would jump onto the chance to have a better ending if it was offered.

[SaleemRa]

Militarized wrote...

It's not an insult, it's my subjective opinon. 
See what I did thur? 

Split hairs as much as you want, it is an insult since you have effectively labled a portion of the community as being dense for lack of a better term. It is no different to someone saying "in my opinion your opinion is <insert snarky comment here>"


To be honest I dont think there can be a middle ground - if there is one its no mans land. No one is asking you to compromise your opinion - love it or hate it its your call. But dont be a douchebag and attack someone.

Modifié par SaleemRa, 01 avril 2012 - 09:37 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

who called who a hipster

[Militarized]

Dresden867 wrote...

Mil: I gotta ask: why you gotta pick a fight, exactly? I -very carefully- only said "I don't regard the Starchild as the end of the franchise" and you are choosing to:

1) put words in my mouth
2) then claim those words are "too optimistic"

Oh that time I wasn't trying to pick a fight, it was just how I read it. Didn't say "too optimistic", just that it was "optimistic" . I just personally  viewed it as the total destruction of the franchise so it was an interesting difference in our views. 

SaleemRa wrote...

Split hairs as much as you want, it is an insult since you have effectively labled a portion of the community as being dense for lack of a better term. It is no different to someone saying "in my opinion your opinion is <insert snarky comment here>"


To be honest I dont think there can be a middle ground - if there is one its no mans land. No one is asking you to compromise your opinion - love it or hate it its your call. But dont be a douchebag and attack someone.

 

My splitting of the hairs was a jab in and of it's self, just some fun poking.  

Most of the pro-enders I keep seeing are either the EA viral team, making one post bout how they like the ending with no context in their post, or they're like that Lazarius guy, using the controversy to make asinine posts and stick his stream at the bottom to gets hits/revenue to his site. 

I never said I wasn't a douche/ahole, I stated that pretty plainly. I stick by what I said though, as it's what I've viewed. A lot of the threads I've been in have pretty much come to that. 

Modifié par Militarized, 01 avril 2012 - 09:44 .

[Joolazoo]

SaleemRa wrote...

I dont get all the insults? K so you like/dont like the ending or how it was written, good for you. Anti enders call pro enders hipster etc, pro enders keep saying you dont "get it", for what? Everyone has different tastes. Some ppl like curry others dont life's like that.

Instead of ragging on someones opinion, post lots on why you like/dont like it. All these "questions" to the pro enders are really the Anti's trying to show off perceived "intelectual superiority" as well since your literally calling the Pro's out to verbally spar with them. Your being just as "hipster" or whatever as the the guys who said you dont "get it".

To the Pro's - enough already with the "you dont get it" jabs. Internet forums are not a good communication tool, ppl cant really guage what your saying since there is no body language etc. You know the Anti's dont like it so stop already, just say you like it and what you like about it and be done.

Personally I like the endings but I dont think that there is anything to "get". I like them because of the reasons I mentioned in this thread (pg 20 btw). If Bioware keeps the endings I'll be fine with it - not the end of the world. If they change it great, another reason to play again. Either way I spent a lot of money on this game so I WILL get my money's worth out of it and be entertained.

The end of the day YOU and only YOU can control how much you enjoy something - its the reason why some ppl can enjoy crap movies or poorly written pulp fiction. Everybody stop getting your knickers in a twist!

I don't understand how people can have discussions where they just go "i like this, but you like that, good talk." That's a discussion that might as well never have happened because all you did was give your opinion and then basically agree that it's never going to change. You should never insult people or use ad homenim attacks in a discussion, but this idea that we should all hold hands and just say what we like/dislike is just as dumb as insulting someone. There are dumb statements on both sides, more one than the other IMO (won't say which), but this extreme of just saying everyone should defer to just giving their opinions with no actual debate is pretty laughable.

[beyondsolo]

SaleemRa wrote...

I dont get all the insults? K so you like/dont like the ending or how it was written, good for you. Anti enders call pro enders hipster etc, pro enders keep saying you dont "get it", for what? Everyone has different tastes. Some ppl like curry others dont life's like that.

Instead of ragging on someones opinion, post lots on why you like/dont like it. All these "questions" to the pro enders are really the Anti's trying to show off perceived "intelectual superiority" as well since your literally calling the Pro's out to verbally spar with them. Your being just as "hipster" or whatever as the the guys who said you dont "get it".

To the Pro's - enough already with the "you dont get it" jabs. Internet forums are not a good communication tool, ppl cant really guage what your saying since there is no body language etc. You know the Anti's dont like it so stop already, just say you like it and what you like about it and be done.

Personally I like the endings but I dont think that there is anything to "get". I like them because of the reasons I mentioned in this thread (pg 20 btw). If Bioware keeps the endings I'll be fine with it - not the end of the world. If they change it great, another reason to play again. Either way I spent a lot of money on this game so I WILL get my money's worth out of it and be entertained.

The end of the day YOU and only YOU can control how much you enjoy something - its the reason why some ppl can enjoy crap movies or poorly written pulp fiction. Everybody stop getting your knickers in a twist!

Some people always find a reason to fight. And some people identify with their opinions so strongly that they perceive any criticism of their opinion as an attack on themselves. Neither of these mindsets is a way to have a civilized discussion.

As far as the ending goes, I'm happy for everyone who enjoyed it. I truly am. However, I will not stop giving voice to my own disappointment with the ending until BioWare actually addresses the matter with actions or definitely says that there will be no changes made. While this is an emotional matter for me because I care deeply about the Mass Effect universe, its story, and its characters, I always try to support my argumentation on why the ending was bad and unworthy of the series with evidence; one just can't rely on others sympathizing or even empathizing, especially those one is trying to convince.

As for "intellectual superiorty" and challenges to verbal sparring, I don't see what's wrong with that. You make it sound as if it was a bad thing to be good at arguing one's point. Do you perceive an unfair advantage in the allegedly superior intellect of those who disliked the ending? I find that odd because I don't think either side is intellectually superior. I just think that the Retake ME3 movement has done an outstanding job in presenting its case and drawing attention to the issue at hand. (I admit bias in this case because I am one of "them.")

While i believe that there are players who genuinely liked the ending, I have to say that I've seen very little solid argumentation in favor of it, if any at all. Much of the support for the ending has come from wanna-be journalists of gaming sites who can't write five lines without making use of profanity or insults. We've been called whiners, idiots, and worse by people who should be as neutral as possible on the matter. If nothing else, the Retake ME3 movement has shown that a large part of what calls itself "gaming journalism" is nothing but a lapdog of the industry.

And then I've seen many posts on the forums that simply state that someone loves the ending. And nothing else. That is neither a contribution to the discourse about the controversy, nor is it any form topic for discussion. It specifically leads to what I've mentioned at the beginning: people consider their opinion to be an argumentation in its own right and expect others to sympathize with them while reacting aggressively toward those who disagree. And that is assuming that those posts are genuine in the first place and not just seeking to provoke an emotional reaction.

Finally, I'd like to once again state that I'm truly happy for anyone who enjoyed the ending. I do think that each of those people has the right to voice their opinion and to contribute to the discussions on these forums. But I'd also like you to understand that much of the argumentation in favor of the ending has been very shallow, and I have yet to see a convincing point that is not refuted within minutes of being made.

Modifié par beyondsolo, 01 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[SaleemRa]

Joolazoo wrote...

I don't understand how people can have discussions where they just go "i like this, but you like that, good talk." That's a discussion that might as well never have happened because all you did was give your opinion and then basically agree that it's never going to change. You should never insult people or use ad homenim attacks in a discussion, but this idea that we should all hold hands and just say what we like/dislike is just as dumb as insulting someone. There are dumb statements on both sides, more one than the other IMO (won't say which), but this extreme of just saying everyone should defer to just giving their opinions with no actual debate is pretty laughable.

What is even more laughable are the attacks made on idividuals with entrenched positions. At the end of the day everyone wants to have their say but nothing you say is going to change their mind or "enlighten" them. Internet forums are not places to reach a middle ground coz NOBODY cares about the alternative opinion. Its about saying "I like this so it is true".

Like it or not there is NO debate on the internet only bickering and petty one upmanship.

[Joolazoo]

SaleemRa wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

I don't understand how people can have discussions where they just go "i like this, but you like that, good talk." That's a discussion that might as well never have happened because all you did was give your opinion and then basically agree that it's never going to change. You should never insult people or use ad homenim attacks in a discussion, but this idea that we should all hold hands and just say what we like/dislike is just as dumb as insulting someone. There are dumb statements on both sides, more one than the other IMO (won't say which), but this extreme of just saying everyone should defer to just giving their opinions with no actual debate is pretty laughable.

What is even more laughable are the attacks made on idividuals with entrenched positions. At the end of the day everyone wants to have their say but nothing you say is going to change their mind or "enlighten" them. Internet forums are not places to reach a middle ground coz NOBODY cares about the alternative opinion. Its about saying "I like this so it is true".

Like it or not there is NO debate on the internet only bickering and petty one upmanship.

you're probably right. A forum is not an adequate place for any productive debate to happen, but I still can't stand when people resort to a relativistic way of talking to each other.

[Dresden867]

This last isn't wholly true, but probably true enough for practical purposes.

Of course, it's also true -off- the internet for the most part.

[Militarized]

SaleemRa wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

I don't understand how people can have discussions where they just go "i like this, but you like that, good talk." That's a discussion that might as well never have happened because all you did was give your opinion and then basically agree that it's never going to change. You should never insult people or use ad homenim attacks in a discussion, but this idea that we should all hold hands and just say what we like/dislike is just as dumb as insulting someone. There are dumb statements on both sides, more one than the other IMO (won't say which), but this extreme of just saying everyone should defer to just giving their opinions with no actual debate is pretty laughable.

What is even more laughable are the attacks made on idividuals with entrenched positions. At the end of the day everyone wants to have their say but nothing you say is going to change their mind or "enlighten" them. Internet forums are not places to reach a middle ground coz NOBODY cares about the alternative opinion. Its about saying "I like this so it is true".

Like it or not there is NO debate on the internet only bickering and petty one upmanship.

That's not entirely true, I have an entrenched position as you say but there have been a FEW posters who I could agree with on why they personally liked the ending, I still thought it was bad writing but I wasn't going to harrass them to much about it. Though I will pose questions, like the poster above who said it wasn't the end of the franchise. That perspective, to me, makes it understandable why he/she doesn't hate the ending quite as much as I do. 

[Cazlee]

its pretty hard to be a pro ender on these forums. if you state your opinion you're then insulted for either not being a "true fan" or "you haven't thought about it enough" and if that doesn't work "it's because you're dumb." in addition you're interrogated to the 9th degree. the community doesn't just leave them alone if someone says they like the game, the forums will poke and prod at them and drag them through hell. noone deserves that.

[xsdob]

FRom a neutral about the ending stance, i have a sense of hope that civilizations will recover and maybe surpass current technology. When Rome fell it set all but the most isolated civilizations into the darkage for over 1000 years, back than they thought they had reached the peak of scientific discovery and innovations and stopped inventing new things like the current galactic civilization did. we surpassed Rome though, and i feel the same will happen on a galactic scale again, this fact gives me faith in the future.

Renders are constantly accused of not giving reasons for liking the ending, when we do give a reason are reasons are dismissed as stupid. This gives the impression of a loaded question or a rigid system where we can't win no matter what.

Also, Antienders tend to accuse us of things other people have said when we criticize unfair criticism against us. And we ate always bilittled for liking the endings while no on tries to reign in those who take their comments to far.

All in all, it feels like the majority picking and trying to suppress the minority for having another opinion and this has a negative effect on proenders and makes attacking hates seem like a good idea.

i really hope posting this isn't a bad idea.

[Joolazoo]

Cazlee wrote...

its pretty hard to be a pro ender on these forums. if you state your opinion you're then insulted for either not being a "true fan" or "you haven't thought about it enough" and if that doesn't work "it's because you're dumb." in addition you're interrogated to the 9th degree. the community doesn't just leave them alone if someone says they like the game, the forums will poke and prod at them and drag them through hell. noone deserves that.

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board thinks makes no sense? Any view that is presented in public has the right to be evaluated. If you don't want what you say to be judged don't say anything...

Modifié par Joolazoo, 01 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[Dresden867]

Militarized wrote...

That's not entirely true, I have an entrenched position as you say but there have been a FEW posters who I could agree with on why they personally liked the ending, I still thought it was bad writing but I wasn't going to harrass them to much about it. Though I will pose questions, like the poster above who said it wasn't the end of the franchise. That perspective, to me, makes it understandable why he/she doesn't hate the ending quite as much as I do. 

Aside: I'd be perfectly happy to discuss it (probably even at length), but I don't wanna derail this thread on that particular topic.

Or really talk about it on this forum, for reasons that several posters have made abundantly clear.

Joolazoo wrote:

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board thinks makes no sense? Any view that is presented in public has the right to be evaluated. If you don't want what you say to be judged don't say anything...

There's a middle ground between "discussing your opinion" and "having your opinion carefully scrutinzed by 300 people, found wanting, flamed to a crisp, and rejected as insufficient."

Just saying.

Modifié par Dresden867, 01 avril 2012 - 10:01 .

[Cazlee]

Joolazoo wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

its pretty hard to be a pro ender on these forums. if you state your opinion you're then insulted for either not being a "true fan" or "you haven't thought about it enough" and if that doesn't work "it's because you're dumb." in addition you're interrogated to the 9th degree. the community doesn't just leave them alone if someone says they like the game, the forums will poke and prod at them and drag them through hell. noone deserves that.

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board makes no sense?

what about the other times?

[SaleemRa]

beyondsolo wrote...
As far as the ending goes, I'm happy for everyone who enjoyed it. I truly am. However, I will not stop giving voice to my own disappointment with the ending until BioWare actually addresses the matter with actions or definitely says that there will be no changes made. While this is an emotional matter for me because I care deeply about the Mass Effect universe, its story, and its characters, I always try to support my argumentation on why the ending was bad and unworthy of the series with evidence; one just can't rely on others sympathizing or even empathizing, especially those one is trying to convince.

Good I hope you continue to do so since you do not feel that the promised product was delivered. I support you with that.

beyondsolo wrote...
As for "intellectual superiorty" and challenges to verbal sparring, I don't see what's wrong with that. You make it sound as if it was a bad thing to be good at arguing one's point. Do you perceive an unfair advantage in the allegedly superior intellect of those who disliked the ending? I find that odd because I don't think either side is intellectually superior. I just think that the Retake ME3 movement has done an outstanding job in presenting its case and drawing attention to the issue at hand. (I admit bias in this case because I am one of "them.")

Not even but its rediculous to the point of asking someone who likes burgers why they like burgers and demanding they justify it. Its a trap like the swami who asks the traveller if he will release the bird in his hand or crush it. No If you wanted to spar over issues like have been brought up by retake and others ie is this a plot hole, or how this could have been so much better then thats great because everyone benefits from it. A lot of these threads asking so called honest questions to pro enders are just setups for the responses to get torn apart - they arent really interested (or very few are) in knowing why they like them rather they are used to corral the pro enders in and harras them.

beyondsolo wrote...
While i believe that there are players who genuinely liked the ending, I have to say that I've seen very little solid argumentation in favor of it, if any at all. Much of the support for the ending has come from wanna-be journalists of gaming sites who can't write five lines without making use of profanity or insults. We've been called whiners, idiots, and worse by people who should be as neutral as possible on the matter. If nothing else, the Retake ME3 movement has shown that a large part of what calls itself "gaming journalism" is nothing but a lapdog of the industry.

And then I've seen many posts on the forums that simply state that someone loves the ending. And nothing else. That is neither a contribution to the discourse about the controversy, nor is it any form topic for discussion. It specifically leads to what I've mentioned at the beginning: people consider their opinion to be an argumentation in its own right and expect others to sympathize with them while reacting aggressively toward those who disagree. And that is assuming that those posts are genuine in the first place and not just seeking to provoke an emotional reaction.

I agree with you on this, a lot of so called journalism is just opinion passed up as news. The insults are also unbecomming and really show how low reporting media has fallen. I also agree with you on the empty posts by pro enders, if your going to post about it then do so but add context so ppl know where your coming from.

[HenchxNarf]

Legendaryred wrote...

Many pro-endings always try to start flame wars while asking for a "legitimate" question or something similar. It's not that anti-ending people try to show off as superior, most try to point plot holes, inconsistencies etc. I would like to point out that i never called any pro-endings hipsters, but a few pro-endings have told us that we deserved to get shot.

And Anti-enders hope we jump off a bridge, get shot, kill ourselves, go off and die somewhere...

So don't go pointing fingers, okay? Both sides have bad apples.

[Joolazoo]

Dresden867 wrote...

Militarized wrote...

That's not entirely true, I have an entrenched position as you say but there have been a FEW posters who I could agree with on why they personally liked the ending, I still thought it was bad writing but I wasn't going to harrass them to much about it. Though I will pose questions, like the poster above who said it wasn't the end of the franchise. That perspective, to me, makes it understandable why he/she doesn't hate the ending quite as much as I do. 

Aside: I'd be perfectly happy to discuss it (probably even at length), but I don't wanna derail this thread on that particular topic.

Or really talk about it on this forum, for reasons that several posters have made abundantly clear.

Joolazoo wrote:

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board thinks makes no sense? Any view that is presented in public has the right to be evaluated. If you don't want what you say to be judged don't say anything...

There's a middle ground between "discussing your opinion" and "having your opinion carefully scrutinzed by 300 people, found wanting, flamed to a crisp, and rejected as insufficient."

Just saying.

I think the middle ground is really just people realizing when a thread/discussion is over and has just delved into repetitive back and forth statements that are continually going nowhere. The biggest problem is people just repeat the same point over and over again in a thread to the same person despite it being clear that they are a little past being convinced. It takes two right minded people to have a productive discussion.

[wicked_being]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Alot of it is simply arguments getting out of hand.

Liking or not liking the endings is to a degree a subjective matter of opinion. There's a point where defending your position overlaps with attacking someone else's, and that's where the trouble starts. If you genuinely can't even see or understand the other persons viewpoint, then it's human nature to demonise the other person as 'wrong'.

I personally think we should all stand together on this subject though. Even if you love very single aspect of the ending, it's clear most people don't, and in a game that is built on choice, where we were promised multiple different endings and outcomes that would fit our Shepards stories, to end up with one ending in 3 colours, all with the same grim dark tone and barely distinguishable variations is a terrible thing, even if those three variations are exactly what you wanted.

I'd implore the pro enders to stand by their fellow fans, and help us all to get the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment from he series we all love as hey have now. Remember this is always going to be an OPTIONAL DLC, even if it gets made, no one will be forced to get it if by don't feel he need for it. And even if you are happy, is more variety in the endings really a bad thing? Won't it just give you more replay value, more paths to take your Shepard on? More Mass Effect to see and experience?

This isnt an us vs them scenario, this is just making sure we all get the things we not just want, but we were actually promised.

Well said.