299 réponses à ce sujet

[Cazlee]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Many pro-endings always try to start flame wars while asking for a "legitimate" question or something similar. It's not that anti-ending people try to show off as superior, most try to point plot holes, inconsistencies etc. I would like to point out that i never called any pro-endings hipsters, but a few pro-endings have told us that we deserved to get shot.

And Anti-enders hope we jump off a bridge, get shot, kill ourselves, go off and die somewhere...

So don't go pointing fingers, okay? Both sides have bad apples.

well given the dynamics of this thread, the OP's curiosity should be satisfied.

[SaleemRa]

Joolazoo wrote...

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board thinks makes no sense? Any view that is presented in public has the right to be evaluated. If you don't want what you say to be judged don't say anything...

No its not because there is a code of conduct on the forums and we expected to adhear to that. Having poo flung at you is not the price to be paid. If you disagree with an opinion fine but personal attacks lead to counter attacks and thread derailments due to all the poo piling up.

There is a difference between saying "I dont agree with your opinion because of X,Y and Z" and saying "lolz ur opininz is crp and u's a troll"

[OhoniX]

I have nothing against people who do like the ending, I have nothing against people who don't like the ending.

What I do have a problem with is people that demand that Bioware spend their time creating a new ending that suits them. I would rather they spend that time working on fun new DLC, or on some other project.

So basically, if your view is "I didn't like the ending, do better on the next game, Bioware," then I have no problems with you. If your view is "I didn't like the ending so Bioware owes it to me to make a completely different one, oh, and they'd better not charge me any extra for their extra work," then hell yeah, I have a problem with you.

[Joolazoo]

SaleemRa wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board thinks makes no sense? Any view that is presented in public has the right to be evaluated. If you don't want what you say to be judged don't say anything...

No its not because there is a code of conduct on the forums and we expected to adhear to that. Having poo flung at you is not the price to be paid. If you disagree with an opinion fine but personal attacks lead to counter attacks and thread derailments due to all the poo piling up.

There is a difference between saying "I dont agree with your opinion because of X,Y and Z" and saying "lolz ur opininz is crp and u's a troll"

...I have already stated that you shouldn't resort to calling people names or using ad homenim attacks. I do think it's fine to say "You're opinion makes no logical sense and you are clearly just stating it to hear your own voice...or see your own typed words"

[HenchxNarf]

Cazlee wrote...

HenchxNarf wrote...

Legendaryred wrote...

Many pro-endings always try to start flame wars while asking for a "legitimate" question or something similar. It's not that anti-ending people try to show off as superior, most try to point plot holes, inconsistencies etc. I would like to point out that i never called any pro-endings hipsters, but a few pro-endings have told us that we deserved to get shot.

And Anti-enders hope we jump off a bridge, get shot, kill ourselves, go off and die somewhere...

So don't go pointing fingers, okay? Both sides have bad apples.

well given the dynamics of this thread, the OP's curiosity should be satisfied.

Kind of a pointless thread, but eh. I hope it is lol Cause nothing good will come of it, I reckon.

Though, I will say that a lot of anti-enders won't take the time to understand where the pro-enders are coming from. They just assume we work for EA, are paid, or trolls. Some don't care to actually try and have a civilized conversation without ripping what we say apart.

[Cazlee]

SaleemRa wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

It's kind of the price you pay for stating your opinon in a public forum. I mean really...was everyone posting threads about how they liked the ending really expecting every reply to either be in agreement or respect a view that many of the people on this board thinks makes no sense? Any view that is presented in public has the right to be evaluated. If you don't want what you say to be judged don't say anything...

No its not because there is a code of conduct on the forums and we expected to adhear to that. Having poo flung at you is not the price to be paid. If you disagree with an opinion fine but personal attacks lead to counter attacks and thread derailments due to all the poo piling up.

There is a difference between saying "I dont agree with your opinion because of X,Y and Z" and saying "lolz ur opininz is crp and u's a troll"

That's actually part of the problem. People tired of the same arguments are still clicking threads that they don't want to see. Annoyed, they post effortless troll responses instead of posting reasonable arguments or refraining to post at all.

Modifié par Cazlee, 01 avril 2012 - 10:14 .

[Joolazoo]

OhoniX wrote...

I have nothing against people who do like the ending, I have nothing against people who don't like the ending.

What I do have a problem with is people that demand that Bioware spend their time creating a new ending that suits them. I would rather they spend that time working on fun new DLC, or on some other project.

So basically, if your view is "I didn't like the ending, do better on the next game, Bioware," then I have no problems with you. If your view is "I didn't like the ending so Bioware owes it to me to make a completely different one, oh, and they'd better not charge me any extra for their extra work," then hell yeah, I have a problem with you.

No one on the retake movement is saying I didn't like the ending, they are saying it was objectively bad. There is such a monumental difference that it has to be taken into consideration.

Edit: more accurately, anyone with any sense who wants to change the ending is saying that it is objectively bad and not just "i don't like feed my wants"

Modifié par Joolazoo, 01 avril 2012 - 10:15 .

[HenchxNarf]

OhoniX wrote...

I have nothing against people who do like the ending, I have nothing against people who don't like the ending.

What I do have a problem with is people that demand that Bioware spend their time creating a new ending that suits them. I would rather they spend that time working on fun new DLC, or on some other project.

So basically, if your view is "I didn't like the ending, do better on the next game, Bioware," then I have no problems with you. If your view is "I didn't like the ending so Bioware owes it to me to make a completely different one, oh, and they'd better not charge me any extra for their extra work," then hell yeah, I have a problem with you.

This is pretty much everything I have to say, but said better than I could.

[Dresden867]

Sure, but here's the thing: if you don't agree with their reasoning for it being objectively bad (I don't), then what they have there is ...

... an opinion. That they don't like the ending.

[Joolazoo]

Dresden867 wrote...

Sure, but here's the thing: if you don't agree with their reasoning for it being objectively bad (I don't), then what they have there is ...

... an opinion. That they don't like the ending.

Whether you agree with something or not doesn't make it an opinion. Whether it adheres to reality, or is logical is what makes it true or false. When people didn't believe that the earth was round did it then turn from a fact to an opinion? Ok, that example is a pretty big stretch, but the larger principle remains. You can agree or disagree with whether or not it is bad, but that doesn't change the fact that it is either objectively bad or good.

Edit: not to mention like and good are not synonymous in the least.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 01 avril 2012 - 10:20 .

[Jadebaby]

Ajna wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

I just stay out of it. That's my general rule when it comes to internet flame wars- they're not worth it. I hate the ending, but if someone else likes it I'm not going to give them a hard time about it. I'm happy that there are people who enjoy the ending. I wish that I could have too.

This

Again, this^

[lillitheris]

It's the internet. Discussions tend to be…vigorous. It takes a certain amount of practice to be able to ignore the noise and concentrate on the signal.

The problematic threads are the ones where the ‘pro-ender’ argument is that the ending is objectively good, without plot-holes and so on (I don't think I've seen any thread descend into fighting when the ending was acknowledged to be faulty and liking it despite that).

Some of these threads still manage to have good discussions, too, you just have to pick through the unnecessary comments to find them. (I'm not even close to have been convinced by any of them, but still.)

I'm sure someone'll provide an opposing view.

[HenchxNarf]

Joolazoo wrote...

Whether you agree with something or not doesn't make it an opinion.
Whether it adheres to reality, or is logical is what makes it true or
false. When people didn't believe that the earth was round did it then
turn from a fact to an opinion? Ok, that example is a pretty big
stretch, but the larger principle remains. You can agree or disagree
with whether or not it is bad, but that doesn't change the fact that it
is either objectively bad or good.

An opinion is someone's view on a subject. It doesn't matter if it's not logical or if it makes sense. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion whether or not they like/dislike the ending.

Being objectively bad/good doesn't really apply, because everyone's view is different.

Modifié par HenchxNarf, 01 avril 2012 - 10:20 .

[Joolazoo]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

Whether you agree with something or not doesn't make it an opinion.
Whether it adheres to reality, or is logical is what makes it true or
false. When people didn't believe that the earth was round did it then
turn from a fact to an opinion? Ok, that example is a pretty big
stretch, but the larger principle remains. You can agree or disagree
with whether or not it is bad, but that doesn't change the fact that it
is either objectively bad or good.

An opinion is someone's view on a subject. It doesn't matter if it's not logical or if it makes sense. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion whether or not they like/dislike the ending.

Being objectively bad/good doesn't really apply, because everyone's view is different.

it definitely applies. I don't want to get into a pnilosophical argument with you, but about 99% of the philosophers in history would say otherwise, and the 1% that agree have much more profound reasoning.

[Dresden867]

Joolazoo wrote...
 Whether you agree with something or not doesn't make it an opinion. Whether it adheres to reality, or is logical is what makes it true or false. When people didn't believe that the earth was round did it then turn from a fact to an opinion? Ok, that example is a pretty big stretch, but the larger principle remains. You can agree or disagree with whether or not it is bad, but that doesn't change the fact that it is either objectively bad or good.

Edit: not to mention like and good are not synonymous in the least.

 Since I disagree with the use of "objectively" in the manner they are using it, it necessitates treating the entire thing as opinion.  The actual objectivity of a lot of the folks involved with the "retake" movement as to the "objective" quality is a bit suspect in my opinion.

 So yeah. I feel that my disagreement here -does-, in fact change whether or no the -entire ending- can be described as "objectively" bad or good, from my perspective.

 (I also feel like the word "objective" is getting a bit overused on this topic, ha)

[HenchxNarf]

Joolazoo wrote...


it definitely applies. I don't want to get into a pnilosophical argument with you, but about 99% of the philosophers in history would say otherwise, and the 1% that agree have much more profound reasoning.

I'm sure they would, but this is a video game debate. Philosophy really doesn't apply.

[Cazlee]

Joolazoo wrote...

An opinion is someone's view on a subject. It doesn't matter if it's not logical or if it makes sense. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion whether or not they like/dislike the ending.

Being objectively bad/good doesn't really apply, because everyone's view is different.

Calling the ending "objectively" bad implies that any other opinion of the ending is invalid though. 

Modifié par Cazlee, 01 avril 2012 - 10:23 .

[HenchxNarf]

Cazlee wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

An opinion is someone's view on a subject. It doesn't matter if it's not logical or if it makes sense. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion whether or not they like/dislike the ending.

Being objectively bad/good doesn't really apply, because everyone's view is different.

Calling the ending "objectively" bad implies that any other opinion of the ending is invalid though. 

Exactly.

[Joolazoo]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...


it definitely applies. I don't want to get into a pnilosophical argument with you, but about 99% of the philosophers in history would say otherwise, and the 1% that agree have much more profound reasoning.

I'm sure they would, but this is a video game debate. Philosophy really doesn't apply.

umm...ok. Good conversation .

[michael99887766]

Quite a few people on the pro-ending side seem to be coming across rather arrogant and "I-got-it-you-didn't".

However, people are being too quick to flame those who aren't like this. To be fair, when a reasonable thread does come along there are usually quite a few posters saying "Fair enough, I'm glad you liked them, I just disagree with you."

[Joolazoo]

Cazlee wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

An opinion is someone's view on a subject. It doesn't matter if it's not logical or if it makes sense. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion whether or not they like/dislike the ending.

Being objectively bad/good doesn't really apply, because everyone's view is different.

Calling the ending "objectively" bad implies that any other opinion of the ending is invalid though. 

That's what it would imply....as would any side taken on any argument that has any intention of being resolved one way or the other, or are we just giving reasons why it's good or bad for our health?

and sorry, that last part of the sentence came off as douchebaggish.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 01 avril 2012 - 10:28 .

[Annora]

chester013 wrote...

Well a lot of pro-anti (slightly more with pro enders I have noticed) tend to post something insulting about people with different opinions. Then the flame war starts.

Really? I haven't called anyone a name, and yet I've been called all sorts of names because I said I was totally fine with the ending. I didn't even profess to love it because I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it either. Apparently that gives people the license to call me stupid, arrogant, not a real fan, hipster, retard, COD gamer, casual gamer, soap opera watcher, illiterate, and a child.

Modifié par Anastassia, 01 avril 2012 - 10:27 .

[Militarized]

Cazlee wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

An opinion is someone's view on a subject. It doesn't matter if it's not logical or if it makes sense. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion whether or not they like/dislike the ending.

Being objectively bad/good doesn't really apply, because everyone's view is different.

Calling the ending "objectively" bad implies that any other opinion of the ending is invalid though. 

Technically you could call it objectively bad. They failed at writing 101, literally, the storyboard rises in the climax arc but does not descend into the resolution arc. How you fail to do that, I have no idea... it is an objective reason why so many people feel confused and abandoned at the ending however. 

That's not even getting into the dropping of narrative coherence, and many other objectionable issues with the ending. 

Modifié par Militarized, 01 avril 2012 - 10:29 .

[lillitheris]

OhoniX wrote...

What I do have a problem with is people that demand that Bioware spend their time creating a new ending that suits them. I would rather they spend that time working on fun new DLC, or on some other project.

Actually, this is the other problematic theme: entitlement. Sometimes it seems as though our ‘demands’ are seen as some kind of magical compulsions that can't be ignored and should therefore never be made (if only).

So basically, if your view is "I didn't like the ending, do better on the next game, Bioware," then I have no problems with you. If your view is "I didn't like the ending so Bioware owes it to me to make a completely different one, oh, and they'd better not charge me any extra for their extra work," then hell yeah, I have a problem with you.

I think this illustrates a fundamental difference in thought process. Let me see if I can condense the ‘entitled’ argument:

“I did not like the ending, and this is why. Let me try to convince you to see the same problems that I do and, if you do, to take steps to fix it. I'm sorry to inform you that if you either cannot see the problems, or do see them but refuse to fix them, then I no longer have faith in you as an author, and will no longer seek out your works; nor can I in good conscience recommend them to others.”

That is my ‘entitlement’. BioWare will do what it will with the information.

[Torrible]

Not surprising that most people can only remember insults coming from the other side. It's called cognitive bias.