299 réponses à ce sujet

[lofte_2000]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Alot of it is simply arguments getting out of hand.

Liking or not liking the endings is to a degree a subjective matter of opinion. There's a point where defending your position overlaps with attacking someone else's, and that's where the trouble starts. If you genuinely can't even see or understand the other persons viewpoint, then it's human nature to demonise the other person as 'wrong'.

I personally think we should all stand together on this subject though. Even if you love very single aspect of the ending, it's clear most people don't, and in a game that is built on choice, where we were promised multiple different endings and outcomes that would fit our Shepards stories, to end up with one ending in 3 colours, all with the same grim dark tone and barely distinguishable variations is a terrible thing, even if those three variations are exactly what you wanted.

I'd implore the pro enders to stand by their fellow fans, and help us all to get the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment from he series we all love as hey have now. Remember this is always going to be an OPTIONAL DLC, even if it gets made, no one will be forced to get it if by don't feel he need for it. And even if you are happy, is more variety in the endings really a bad thing? Won't it just give you more replay value, more paths to take your Shepard on? More Mass Effect to see and experience?

This isnt an us vs them scenario, this is just making sure we all get the things we not just want, but we were actually promised.

I agree 100%

[iamthedave3]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

You can be told that you're wrong for stating your opinion when your opinion is wrong. This makes you wrong twice. :innocent:

An opinion isn't wrong. It's someone's opinion..not yours. I'm sorry, but saying someone's opinion is right or wrong is ridiculous.

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria by which one can be determined. The only question is whether or not the person understands the criteria and has the critical skills to examine the narrative in question to find and determine whether or not it does in fact contain plot holes.

You're correct that some anti-enders don't understand those criteria or the definition of a plot hole and over use it. You're wrong in your apparent assertion that there are no plot holes in ME 3's ending, as is anyone else who claims there are no plot holes.

On the flip side, anti-enders are wrong in the number of plot holes present, because some things that are called plot holes are not.

[Dridengx]

Gwtheyrn wrote...

You can be told that you're wrong for stating your opinion when your opinion is wrong. This makes you wrong twice. :innocent:

no such thing as being wrong twice derp. Your opinion can be 'wrong' when there is facts to disprove an opinion.

For example. Retake has over 50k members. If you said, no they don't! you would be wrong because I have the facebook proof against you. That's being wrong once. Where do you get twice? lol, why do I even bother with some of you

[Dridengx]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

Modifié par Dridengx, 01 avril 2012 - 11:53 .

[Dragoni89]

Dridengx wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

Why don't you clarify, if not stfu? Can't explain the plot holes with the evidence from the game? Why do you even bother to post.

Modifié par Dragoni89, 01 avril 2012 - 11:55 .

[daecath]

From a literary standpoint, it would be hard to argue that this is a "good" ending. There are too many plot holes and too many contrivances for this to be considered an example of a well written element.

That said, I understand that something doesn't have to be the height of literary brilliance in order to be enjoyable. I like the Twilight series, but I'm perfectly willing to admit that it's not exactly the best writing in the world, to put it mildly.

So I don't personally have any problem when someone says that they like the ending. What I do have a problem with is when someone implies or outright states that I'm either too stupid to understand it, or that I just want the story to end my way because I'm whiny, entitled, and immature.
EDIT:
Like this:

Dridengx wrote...
Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you
simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the
writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

These kinds of posts trigger the animosity. Had the poster taken the time to reasonably explain why they thought it was a good ending, I would respect their opinion. However offering no supporting evidence simply insulting the intelligence of anyone that disagrees automatically discounts their opinion.

Here's a reasonable response:
Once the reaper beam hit, a retreat order was given. Your ground forces, seeing you appear to be dead, would have fallen back to the Normandy. Joker, seeing the energy buildup on the Citadel/Crucible, could concievably have decided that the prudent course of action would be to make an escape.
The explosions of the Mass Relays clearly differ visually from the explosion of the Mass Relay in the Arrival DLC, so it's possible that the effects would be different as well.
There are a few, albeit obscure, references to an ancient race in descriptions about a specific planet that could be taken as referring to the "god-child".

And so on. If you write out a reasoned, intelligent post supporting your position, I'll respect it. If not, then basically you're a troll, offering up an emotionally-charged opinion as fact in order to stir up a response.

Incidentally, the above arguments do not actually negate the presence of plot holes. A plot hole is something that is not completely covered in the plot of the story. Anytime it is left to the user to fill in the blanks, to try and come up with an explaination for why or how an event in the plot took place, that is a plot hole. So all of the above - your ground crew on Normandy; Joker leaving the battle; how they got to the planet; why the destruction of the relays doesn't destroy everything in that star system; how the stranded fleet is going to survive on an alien, decimated world - all of these still fall into the definition of a plot hole.

Modifié par daecath, 01 avril 2012 - 12:19 .

[Cazlee]

Dragoni89 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

Why don't you clarify, if not stfu? Can't explain the plot holes with the evidence from the game? Why do you even bother to post.

Why do YOU bother to post if you're not interested in responding to anyone?
Everyone in this thread has been civil so far but you, are you here just to be a rude troll?

[scourgereaver]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

You can be told that you're wrong for stating your opinion when your opinion is wrong. This makes you wrong twice. :innocent:

An opinion isn't wrong. It's someone's opinion..not yours. I'm sorry, but saying someone's opinion is right or wrong is ridiculous.

You are right, but that's what mankind's history has alway been based upon.  Majority rules and therefore has always been presumed "right."

BTW, if a mod is reading this, please close this topic up, it's pointless and has obviously been turned into what the OP preached against.  Just like every single post or "discussion" ever made on the internet.

[Yokokorama]

In regards to this whole opinion thing . . . while I agree people are entitled to their own opinions, I think there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, I can go around saying "In my opinion, zebras are red!" Just because I threw in a "In my opinion . . . " at the beginning doesn't make it a valid opinion, because its factually incorrect.

Making the above relevant here, while some stuff is subjective, I think there are some pretty obvious plot-holes in the game that can't be justified by saying "In my opinion, they were perfectly logical and made sense."

[Gwtheyrn]

Dridengx wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

You can be told that you're wrong for stating your opinion when your opinion is wrong. This makes you wrong twice. :innocent:

no such thing as being wrong twice derp. Your opinion can be 'wrong' when there is facts to disprove an opinion.

For example. Retake has over 50k members. If you said, no they don't! you would be wrong because I have the facebook proof against you. That's being wrong once. Where do you get twice? lol, why do I even bother with some of you

Alas, I can see that humour is wasted.

BTW, I find your sig line pretty tactless. Most people I know who are upset about the endings aren't upset because they dislike the game. They're upset over it because they love the games.

[Cazlee]

Yokokorama wrote...

In regards to this whole opinion thing . . . while I agree people are entitled to their own opinions, I think there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, I can go around saying "In my opinion, zebras are red!" Just because I threw in a "In my opinion . . . " at the beginning doesn't make it a valid opinion, because its factually incorrect.

Making the above relevant here, while some stuff is subjective, I think there are some pretty obvious plot-holes in the game that can't be justified by saying "In my opinion, they were perfectly logical and made sense."

Well with every fiction, even the best ones, if you look hard enough you can find plot holes.
I'm not sure if ME's ending are rife with them though or if we just weren't given enough information.

[Wowlock]

Sad truth is that the ''Internet anonimity'' declines the need for respect for other's opinion. We have our own and they have theirs but the moment you agree with some valid points from either-side , you get the reaction like '' you are betraying your ideas ! ''...

For me, as I always said for 3 or so weeks since the ending , I don't have any problems with those who like the ending. Good for them, in fact I am envious of them to enjoy the game and the ending like that. What I don't understand is that those who like the ending but have the urge to come to forums and insult those who didn't like. Calling them basicly '' Idiots'' for not ''Getting '' the ending and feeling superior to them. I understand people need to satisfy their Ego at some point but this is just throwing fuel to the fire.

Personally ? I ignore those who don't respect my opinion and their opinion doesn't worth my time if they act like that. in the end. I am always available for a good and pure arguement though as long as you listen to my side aswell.

[Yokokorama]

Cazlee wrote...

Yokokorama wrote...

In regards to this whole opinion thing . . . while I agree people are entitled to their own opinions, I think there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, I can go around saying "In my opinion, zebras are red!" Just because I threw in a "In my opinion . . . " at the beginning doesn't make it a valid opinion, because its factually incorrect.

Making the above relevant here, while some stuff is subjective, I think there are some pretty obvious plot-holes in the game that can't be justified by saying "In my opinion, they were perfectly logical and made sense."

Well with every fiction, even the best ones, if you look hard enough you can find plot holes.
I'm not sure if ME's ending are rife with them though or if we just weren't given enough information.

True, but thats the thing . . . until enough information is given, its a plot-hole.  Otherwise, there are a million and a half interpretations of what happened. 

[scourgereaver]

Cazlee wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

Why don't you clarify, if not stfu? Can't explain the plot holes with the evidence from the game? Why do you even bother to post.

Why do YOU bother to post if you're not interested in responding to anyone?
Everyone in this thread has been civil so far but you, are you here just to be a rude troll?

Why don't you read DridenGx's second last post ;p

[VoodooDrackus]

ZombifiedJake wrote...

What it comes down to is, regardless of the pro/anti stance, everybody would jump onto the chance to have a better ending if it was offered.

That is a complete generalization.

I would not jump at a chance to have a better ending if it was offered. I am very happy with the ending I went through. Changing it or offering something that is suppose to be better would more than likely ruin anything that I got out of my first and second playthroughs.
 
In fact I just went through the ending 5 times with different choices just to disprove some baseless assertions I have seen around here. And in all cases each ending was still very moving, because of their implications, even if I can't get behind Destroy or the Synthesis choices.
Those last few moments are still so very moving to me. I will always remember how I felt when I made the choice for the first time. I was completely torn, only had 2 choices, and went with the one that my Shepard felt was the only choice he could make as a total Paragon.

[Gwtheyrn]

Cazlee wrote...

Yokokorama wrote...

In regards to this whole opinion thing . . . while I agree people are entitled to their own opinions, I think there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, I can go around saying "In my opinion, zebras are red!" Just because I threw in a "In my opinion . . . " at the beginning doesn't make it a valid opinion, because its factually incorrect.

Making the above relevant here, while some stuff is subjective, I think there are some pretty obvious plot-holes in the game that can't be justified by saying "In my opinion, they were perfectly logical and made sense."

Well with every fiction, even the best ones, if you look hard enough you can find plot holes.
I'm not sure if ME's ending are rife with them though or if we just weren't given enough information.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

[Dragoni89]

Cazlee wrote...

Dragoni89 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

Why don't you clarify, if not stfu? Can't explain the plot holes with the evidence from the game? Why do you even bother to post.

Why do YOU bother to post if you're not interested in responding to anyone?
Everyone in this thread has been civil so far but you, are you here just to be a rude troll?

I am responding, I am telling her to calrify where she see the evidence that explains against it being plot hole. I asked this a page ago. Obviously the poster can not devliver.

Obviosuly I'm being rude, when someone questions other people intelligence by saying they overlooked things without stating WHAT they over looked. Or saying they do not understand the endin without giving evidence for it.

[Joolazoo]

VoodooDrackus wrote...

ZombifiedJake wrote...

What it comes down to is, regardless of the pro/anti stance, everybody would jump onto the chance to have a better ending if it was offered.

That is a complete generalization.

I would not jump at a chance to have a better ending if it was offered. I am very happy with the ending I went through. Changing it or offering something that is suppose to be better would more than likely ruin anything that I got out of my first and second playthroughs.
 
In fact I just went through the ending 5 times with different choices just to disprove some baseless assertions I have seen around here. And in all cases each ending was still very moving, because of their implications, even if I can't get behind Destroy or the Synthesis choices.
Those last few moments are still so very moving to me. I will always remember how I felt when I made the choice for the first time. I was completely torn, only had 2 choices, and went with the one that my Shepard felt was the only choice he could make as a total Paragon.

So basically, "i don't want more endings becauase I'd be jealous of how other people were also now able to enjoy the endings." This is like saying your hersheys bar isn't good anymore because the person next to you got one with nuts in it. No where in your post was there a reasonable explanation for why adding new endings would diminish yours in any way.

Modifié par Joolazoo, 01 avril 2012 - 12:11 .

[Gwtheyrn]

Vurculac wrote...

To the OP; and I am being completely serious here. If you really want to know what's going on, just read a history book. It is impossible for people to get along, period.

^This. I got a good chuckle out of that.

Well played, sir.

[Lmaoboat]

Go on to a Star Wars forum, and say the prequels were better, that Jar Jar Binks really made those movies great, and that people just don't get him, and I'm sure you'd get a similar reaction.

[Gwtheyrn]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Go on to a Star Wars forum, and say the prequels were better, that Jar Jar Binks really made those movies great, and that people just don't get him, and I'm sure you'd get a similar reaction.

Hey, I loved Jar Jar. I thought it was absolutely brilliant that he turned out to be responsible for the formation of the Empire.

[Yokokorama]

Joolazoo wrote...

So basically, "i don't want more endings becauase I'd be jealous of how other people were also now able to enjoy the endings." This is like saying your hersheys bar isn't good anymore because the person next to you got one with nuts in it. No where in your post was there a reasonable explanation for why adding new endings would diminish yours in any way.

This is exactly my thoughts, though worded a bit more crudely.  New endings don't have to effect anyone if they don't want them.  Nobody is forcing them to download them.  If they liked their old endings, keep them.

"Oh but our ending is invalidated."  No, its not.  Mass Effect 3 was heavily advertised as a choice based game with 16 different endings based on said choices.  They bought the game knowing full well that its possible for others to get different endings than them, but that didn't stop them from buying it.

Its what has been giving me that selfish vibe from them.

Modifié par Yokokorama, 01 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[FOX216BC]

"Pro vs Anti Ender animosity - WTF is going on?"
It is referred to as "Speculation".