299 réponses à ce sujet

[Cazlee]

Gwtheyrn wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Yokokorama wrote...

In regards to this whole opinion thing . . . while I agree people are entitled to their own opinions, I think there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, I can go around saying "In my opinion, zebras are red!" Just because I threw in a "In my opinion . . . " at the beginning doesn't make it a valid opinion, because its factually incorrect.

Making the above relevant here, while some stuff is subjective, I think there are some pretty obvious plot-holes in the game that can't be justified by saying "In my opinion, they were perfectly logical and made sense."

Well with every fiction, even the best ones, if you look hard enough you can find plot holes.
I'm not sure if ME's ending are rife with them though or if we just weren't given enough information.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

What's your point?

[Gwtheyrn]

Cazlee wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Yokokorama wrote...

In regards to this whole opinion thing . . . while I agree people are entitled to their own opinions, I think there is a line that has to be drawn. For example, I can go around saying "In my opinion, zebras are red!" Just because I threw in a "In my opinion . . . " at the beginning doesn't make it a valid opinion, because its factually incorrect.

Making the above relevant here, while some stuff is subjective, I think there are some pretty obvious plot-holes in the game that can't be justified by saying "In my opinion, they were perfectly logical and made sense."

Well with every fiction, even the best ones, if you look hard enough you can find plot holes.
I'm not sure if ME's ending are rife with them though or if we just weren't given enough information.

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

What's your point?

The top of my head.

[Melancholic]

My problem is that pro-enders can simply not buy the hypothetical ending DLC and remain completely unaffected, whereas for those who hate the ending the fate of the whole trilogy is in the balance. Pro-enders actively work to deny a large number of people what they want, apparently on principle. Empathy should weigh heavier than that.

Modifié par Melancholic, 01 avril 2012 - 12:22 .

[Yokokorama]

His point is kind of obvious. Until we're given more information, those plot-holes remain plot-holes. They don't just not  become plot-holes because we think  they'll give us more information.

Modifié par Yokokorama, 01 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[Cazlee]

Yokokorama wrote...

Joolazoo wrote...

So basically, "i don't want more endings becauase I'd be jealous of how other people were also now able to enjoy the endings." This is like saying your hersheys bar isn't good anymore because the person next to you got one with nuts in it. No where in your post was there a reasonable explanation for why adding new endings would diminish yours in any way.

This is exactly my thoughts, though worded a bit more crudely.  New endings don't have to effect anyone if they don't want them.  Nobody is forcing them to download them.  If they liked their old endings, keep them.

"Oh but our ending is invalidated."  No, its not.  Mass Effect 3 was heavily advertised as a choice based game with 16 different endings based on said choices.  They bought the game knowing full well that its possible for others to get different endings than them, but that didn't stop them from buying it.

Its what has been giving me that selfish vibe from them.

No. He said that an expansion of the endings are fine as long as his choice remains unchanged. What is so hard to understand about that?  They can make 13 more endings as long as they keep the first 3 the same.

Modifié par Cazlee, 01 avril 2012 - 12:24 .

[Torrible]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

True. That was not a good argument. Flat-earth theorists comes to mind. 

Let me try again. Objectivity implies falsifiabilitiy. A fact must be possible to prove. 

The best evidence the anti-enders have is popular opinion. People can be collectively wrong about things. 99.99% of the people in the world thought the earth was flat long ago, and if you ask them, they would proclaim it to be an objective fact. Unlike the roundness of earth, whether an ending is good or bad cannot be proven. You can argue that concepts like beauty and ugliness can be objective. It's not. It's still subjective because our views come from a limited human perspective. 

This explains what I meant although it more concerns morality
http://www.youtube.c...bvK8SIgMY#t=72s

So what you're saying is that the entire field of literary criticism is invalid and nothing more than opinion, and that there is no such thing as narrative causality at work in a story.

Strictly speaking yes. We can all agree that a piece of literature is a masterpiece but we can't call it a fact. Narrative consistency can be used to judge a novel but in the end it is all opinion.

Okay, I think that better defines what you're talking about.

Labelling it as 'opinion' is misleading though. I hope I'm not wrong in saying you're not a writer, you certainly don't talk like any writer I've spoken with or worked with. You're right in that there are no observable, scientific facts with writing or literary criticism, but there are techniques which work and techniques which don't. ME 3's ending isn't unique, there are many endings which introduce 11th hour characters or plot devices, and only a handful pull it off. When they do, it's easy to tell the different between them and the ones which fail.

Literary criticism is based on masses of analysis of those techniques, and the subjective responses of hundreds of thousands if not millions of readers coming to broadly similar conclusions.

While you're not 'wrong' I think that at the same time you're not right either. When people write those long literary analysis of why ME 3's endings suck, they're not just using clever words to voice their displeasure, they're using well established and valid critical thinking that's evolved from the basic way that human beings process and make sense of sensory input (in fact that's what literary construction is based on; making sense of information on the page, and writers working out the best ways to get the readers to process that information).

Still, it is questionable how far a narrative has to depart from established guidelines in order be to considered a failure. Besides, that is only from a writer's point of view. I think that the overall disdain for the ending stems from unexplained 'plotholes' and the bleakness of it all, as opposed to a bad narrative structure. Even though the execution could be better, it is not percieved as the main problem. Writers hate the ending for one reason, romantics hate it for another. With this much disagreement about what makes the ending bad and how bad it is, the atrociousness of the ending is hardly a fact.

Modifié par Torrible, 01 avril 2012 - 12:26 .

[iamthedave3]

Dridengx wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

It does actually, but thanks for playing.

I'm amazed at your stamina. You've been posting the same thing for weeks day in day out, in pretty much every thread you can get your hands on.

And it's still boring.

[daecath]

I shouldn't do it, but I'm going to. Reading some of these pro-ending posts, they sound very similar in tone to arguments put forth by the Republican party. "We think homosexuality is wrong, so you shouldn't be allowed to marry if you're gay." = "We think the endings are fine as they are, so you shouldn't be allowed to ask for them to be changed."

[Ducking under my flame-proof blanket]

[Gwtheyrn]

Torrible wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

True. That was not a good argument. Flat-earth theorists comes to mind. 

Let me try again. Objectivity implies falsifiabilitiy. A fact must be possible to prove. 

The best evidence the anti-enders have is popular opinion. People can be collectively wrong about things. 99.99% of the people in the world thought the earth was flat long ago, and if you ask them, they would proclaim it to be an objective fact. Unlike the roundness of earth, whether an ending is good or bad cannot be proven. You can argue that concepts like beauty and ugliness can be objective. It's not. It's still subjective because our views come from a limited human perspective. 

This explains what I meant although it more concerns morality
http://www.youtube.c...bvK8SIgMY#t=72s

So what you're saying is that the entire field of literary criticism is invalid and nothing more than opinion, and that there is no such thing as narrative causality at work in a story.

Strictly speaking yes. We can all agree that a piece of literature is a masterpiece but we can't call it a fact. Narrative consistency can be used to judge a novel but in the end it is all opinion.

Okay, I think that better defines what you're talking about.

Labelling it as 'opinion' is misleading though. I hope I'm not wrong in saying you're not a writer, you certainly don't talk like any writer I've spoken with or worked with. You're right in that there are no observable, scientific facts with writing or literary criticism, but there are techniques which work and techniques which don't. ME 3's ending isn't unique, there are many endings which introduce 11th hour characters or plot devices, and only a handful pull it off. When they do, it's easy to tell the different between them and the ones which fail.

Literary criticism is based on masses of analysis of those techniques, and the subjective responses of hundreds of thousands if not millions of readers coming to broadly similar conclusions.

While you're not 'wrong' I think that at the same time you're not right either. When people write those long literary analysis of why ME 3's endings suck, they're not just using clever words to voice their displeasure, they're using well established and valid critical thinking that's evolved from the basic way that human beings process and make sense of sensory input (in fact that's what literary construction is based on; making sense of information on the page, and writers working out the best ways to get the readers to process that information).

Still, it is questionable how far a narrative has to depart from established guidelines in order be to considered a failure. Besides, that is only from a writer's point of view. I think that the overall disdain for the ending stems from unexplained 'plotholes' and the bleakness of it all, as opposed to a bad narrative structure. Even though the execution could be better, it is not percieved as the main problem. Writers hate the ending for this reason, romantics hate it for another. With this much disagreement about what makes the ending bad and how bad it is, the atrociousness of the ending is hardly a fact.

No... having "god" show up out of the blue in the last 3 minutes to offer your three choices actually is pretty dreadful narrative structure. In fact, one of the worst literary sins I've ever seen.

[VoodooDrackus]

HenchxNarf wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's going to get worse once they add clarification to the endings, EVERYONE who thinks they're going to change the ending/make the Indoctrination theory canon are going to go rabid when they realise Bioware hasn't done that.

I know, right? lol

Actually that is probably my biggest fear for Bioware. Even if they elaborate on things that people are having a hard time with like why the Normandy is running, how the Normandy crashes, etc, I do not think it will satisfy the bloodlust. I think the ones against the ending will get even more enraged.

[Pelle6666]

We all love the game! I happen to disagree entirely with the current endings and I would like to see Bioware make us a dlc with alternative ones, if some one else is of an other opinion then just don't download it if it will be made! We don't have to fight over this!

[Torrible]

daecath wrote...

I shouldn't do it, but I'm going to. Reading some of these pro-ending posts, they sound very similar in tone to arguments put forth by the Republican party. "We think homosexuality is wrong, so you shouldn't be allowed to marry if you're gay." = "We think the endings are fine as they are, so you shouldn't be allowed to ask for them to be changed."

[Ducking under my flame-proof blanket]

I'm perfectly ok with the ending being changed, although I'm against a complete rewrite. I just don't think it deserves some of the bashing it is getting. I'm a neutral-ender btw.

[Gwtheyrn]

Pelle6666 wrote...

We all love the game! I happen to disagree entirely with the current endings and I would like to see Bioware make us a dlc with alternative ones, if some one else is of an other opinion then just don't download it if it will be made! We don't have to fight over this!

Yes we do! It's like watching a burning ant hill. Now, where did I put my can of gasoline?

[CrazyRah]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Alot of it is simply arguments getting out of hand.

Liking or not liking the endings is to a degree a subjective matter of opinion. There's a point where defending your position overlaps with attacking someone else's, and that's where the trouble starts. If you genuinely can't even see or understand the other persons viewpoint, then it's human nature to demonise the other person as 'wrong'.

I personally think we should all stand together on this subject though. Even if you love very single aspect of the ending, it's clear most people don't, and in a game that is built on choice, where we were promised multiple different endings and outcomes that would fit our Shepards stories, to end up with one ending in 3 colours, all with the same grim dark tone and barely distinguishable variations is a terrible thing, even if those three variations are exactly what you wanted.

I'd implore the pro enders to stand by their fellow fans, and help us all to get the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment from he series we all love as hey have now. Remember this is always going to be an OPTIONAL DLC, even if it gets made, no one will be forced to get it if by don't feel he need for it. And even if you are happy, is more variety in the endings really a bad thing? Won't it just give you more replay value, more paths to take your Shepard on? More Mass Effect to see and experience?

This isnt an us vs them scenario, this is just making sure we all get the things we not just want, but we were actually promised.

Well said! I so agree with this

[iamthedave3]

Torrible wrote...

Still, it is questionable how far a narrative has to depart from established guidelines in order be to considered a failure. Besides, that is only from a writer's point of view. I think that the overall disdain for the ending stems from unexplained 'plotholes' and the bleakness of it all, as opposed to a bad narrative structure. Even though the execution could be better, it is not percieved as the main problem. Writers hate the ending for one reason, romantics hate it for another. With this much disagreement about what makes the ending bad and how bad it is, the atrociousness of the ending is hardly a fact.

The thing is that people respond to these narrative structures even if they aren't aware they're doing it. You don't need to know what a plot hole is or how to correctly define it in order to be pissed off that it's there. 'Plot hole' really talks about a gap in the story that does or can get your mind stuck on it, so you're left either trying hard to think around it (explain it) or it becomes a sticking point where your mental processing gets caught up in trying to figure it out.

Essentially, it gets in the way of the reader's ability to make sense of the information.

Likewise, if you breach narrative causality, it makes people seize up. Even if they don't understand why, their brains get caught up trying to understand what's even there.

Though that said, my perception of other people's criticisms are likely coloured by my perspective. I view things with a writer's lens, so even when people are complaining it's too bleak, I see a narrative causation. It's like in the ending of Red Dead Redemption; very few people complained about it, in fact most people loved it, and even those who were sad accepted it, because they genuinely expected it.

ME 3 tries to get you to expect it, but it's never quite able to in large part because of its genre and because of the preceding games. It's one of those things where I get it intellectually but never felt it where I needed to for an ending like this to work.

Edit: Oh, I think it's important to note that a narrative can easily go away from established guidelines if the author has a definite vision of their own (Breakfast of Champions leaps screaming - and probably naked and covered in indescrible fluids - from the pile there) and pull it off, but when it comes to ME 3 that sort of discussion goes nowhere because it's a 100% conventional narrative that follows the standard narratorial rules right up to the ending, which is the absolute worst time to attempt a major tonal shift and/or flout conventions unless you have a truly brilliant and original idea which will stun the audience into dumb acceptance of your genius.

This, sadly, wasn't it, not least because it's not even very original. The content's been seen before in Deus Ex and other old sci-fi works from decades past.

In many ways the success of prior ME games is based on combining sci-fi traditions and glomping them together into one great universe with original design ideas to express the old concepts (a tried and tested approach in all writing). You can definitely see ME 3's ending as an attempt to go high concept by writers who don't understand how high concept endings function, and haven't learned at all from the many failures of the past. As it stands this is Matrix Reloaded, not 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Modifié par iamthedave3, 01 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[Ashilana]

There is a conflict over the ending... and neither side has any control of it being resolved.  The longer it takes for the situation to go away/change/be fixed/etc. the more likely it is for those who are frustrated by the situation to lash out at the only opposition they can fight.

[Gwtheyrn]

CrazyRah wrote...

Total Biscuit wrote...

Alot of it is simply arguments getting out of hand.

Liking or not liking the endings is to a degree a subjective matter of opinion. There's a point where defending your position overlaps with attacking someone else's, and that's where the trouble starts. If you genuinely can't even see or understand the other persons viewpoint, then it's human nature to demonise the other person as 'wrong'.

I personally think we should all stand together on this subject though. Even if you love very single aspect of the ending, it's clear most people don't, and in a game that is built on choice, where we were promised multiple different endings and outcomes that would fit our Shepards stories, to end up with one ending in 3 colours, all with the same grim dark tone and barely distinguishable variations is a terrible thing, even if those three variations are exactly what you wanted.

I'd implore the pro enders to stand by their fellow fans, and help us all to get the same level of satisfaction and enjoyment from he series we all love as hey have now. Remember this is always going to be an OPTIONAL DLC, even if it gets made, no one will be forced to get it if by don't feel he need for it. And even if you are happy, is more variety in the endings really a bad thing? Won't it just give you more replay value, more paths to take your Shepard on? More Mass Effect to see and experience?

This isnt an us vs them scenario, this is just making sure we all get the things we not just want, but we were actually promised.

Well said! I so agree with this

Yeah, but it's not nearly as much fun as throwing gasoline on an already raging fire. Like thus:

Folks who actually liked the ending are just sheep, bleating along and willing to accept whatever they're handed without question. Even if it's a turd in a waffle-cone, they'll believe it's icecream. People like this deserve to be tarred and feathered, waterboarded, dunked in boiling oil, crucified and then shot. It would be doing the human race a favour.

Now just sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch the inferno. Entertainment at its finest.

"Obvious troll is obvious and clearly not serious."

[VoodooDrackus]

Gwtheyrn wrote...



Definition of "Plot Hole" from Wikipedia:
     A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

And you skip over the most important part of that definition:
"While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome."
That is relevant since so many people are using plot hole loosely to try and invalidate a great journey/story.

[dragonflight288]

I bowed out of the conflict weeks ago. I started a thread quite similar to this one, calling for civility on both sides, and was then insulted and called every name under the book. I've been playing ME3 again, I've been enjoying the multiplayer, and I have also started Shepard's journey all over again in ME1. I have also been playing a little bit of Dragon Age Origins, to be followed by DA2.

People have been all riled up, but in the end, it's not a big deal.

[Dresden867]

Gwtheyrn wrote...

Yeah, but it's not nearly as much fun as throwing gasoline on an already raging fire. Like thus:

Folks who actually liked the ending are just sheep, bleating along and willing to accept whatever they're handed without question. Even if it's a turd in a waffle-cone, they'll believe it's icecream. People like this deserve to be tarred and feathered, waterboarded, dunked in boiling oil, crucified and then shot. It would be doing the human race a favour.

Now just sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch the inferno. Entertainment at its finest.

"Obvious troll is obvious and clearly not serious."

 /whunks Gweth with a fish

 Taste Finny Justice!

[Gwtheyrn]

Dresden867 wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...

Yeah, but it's not nearly as much fun as throwing gasoline on an already raging fire. Like thus:

Folks who actually liked the ending are just sheep, bleating along and willing to accept whatever they're handed without question. Even if it's a turd in a waffle-cone, they'll believe it's icecream. People like this deserve to be tarred and feathered, waterboarded, dunked in boiling oil, crucified and then shot. It would be doing the human race a favour.

Now just sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch the inferno. Entertainment at its finest.

"Obvious troll is obvious and clearly not serious."

 /whunks Gweth with a fish

 Taste Finny Justice!

SPOOOOOOON!

[MorSterling]

Kinda amused by the term "plothole" as that doesn´t even start to describe how much the fails to deliver...plotuniverse? Well that´s a start.

[iamthedave3]

VoodooDrackus wrote...

Gwtheyrn wrote...



Definition of "Plot Hole" from Wikipedia:
     A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot,
or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the
plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of
characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no
apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in
the storyline.

And you skip over the most important part of that definition:
"While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome."
That is relevant since so many people are using plot hole loosely to try and invalidate a great journey/story.

Yes, which is why the star child's existence is not necessarily a plot hole - though it does open up possible retrospective plot holes and poses at least a half dozen questions - but the Normandy flight IS a plot hole, as is the presence of squad mates on the ground on the Normandy post-crash.

There's a series of events implied there that defy explanation and which the story provides no answers for, which goes against prior characterization and defy common sense at multiple junctures.

[Militarized]

iamthedave3 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

iamthedave3 wrote...

Unfortunately your 'opinion' that plot holes are subjective is factually wrong, because 'plot hole' has a defined meaning and well established criteria

Mass Effect 3 does not have plotholes, you simply overlooked or don't know doesn't mean it's a mistake on the writer but a mistake of the player/reader.

just wait, Bioware will "clarify' the endings for people like you who need a helping hand. Maybe even get some at PAX

It does actually, but thanks for playing.

I'm amazed at your stamina. You've been posting the same thing for weeks day in day out, in pretty much every thread you can get your hands on.

And it's still boring.

There are a lot of viral EA marketers on the web, I wouldn't put it past him/her to be one of them. This info was leaked last week, they troll boards to sway public opinion. 

Obviously it is not working. 

Modifié par Militarized, 01 avril 2012 - 12:59 .

[DarkBladeX98]

ticklefist wrote...

Dresden867 wrote...

Well, for my part, I have never once said "you don't get it" and, for allowing that there are things I like about the ending, been flamed somewhere past "well done" and to "why the heck do I read this forum?".

I think there's a middle ground, but people seem to be angry that I am not into groupthink. /grin

Nice try. It's not group think. It's not mob mentality. People just have this knack for agreeing with the obvious.

yeah, its called something is wrong when 91% of the internet active fanbase hate it.