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Mass Effect 3 aftermath reinforces that games journalism is terribly broken


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#1
HanabPacal

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This is my take on games journalism and the situation as it now stands because of the controversy surrounding the Mass Effect 3 ending and the subsequent response by numerous games “journalists”.  This is a long read but by no means comprehensive.  I didn’t even get into the specifics of the games “journalists” responses concerning the various issues surrounding Mass Effect 3, but rather hope that this can serve as a basic framework from which to discuss the important overarching issues.  I would ask that any contributors to the thread please not demonize but rather present facts and personal observations in order to scrutinize the situation at hand.  Thanks.  
 
In every other form of mainstream entertainment media the journalists (critics/reviewers) for the most part act as a solid front-line of defense for consumers against poorly made products.  The critics (again for the most part – there are of course exceptions) are actually critical of the particular media that they cover because it helps to motivate the various artists to strive to do better, as well as serving the intended function of the job – to objectively inform the public.  These critics don’t act as mouthpieces for pre-release hype of the products.  Nor do they splash full page ads for the media they review on their websites or beside their columns.  They realize that things like these constitute as a huge conflict of interest and very much go against being able to present themselves, and their opinions, as objective and not influenced by them being beholden to publishing houses and production studios.  Also, as a rule, when writing a review they don’t allow themselves to be swept away as adoring fans.  A state of detached professionalism is maintained in order that when assessing something they don’t dismissively hand-wave away problems (sometimes major problems) that can and will adversely affect the enjoyment (as well as the objective quality) of the product by others. 
 
Perhaps most importantly of all though, these critics/reviewers of other media show a level of competence for actually understanding their media, which in turn instills a measure of confidence and trust in their readers.  For example, looking back at Dragon Age II we see that the game received numerous high marks and superlatives from professional games critics.  However, we don’t see any of those games critics having issue with the fact that a mage, or mages, in the party aren’t recognized as such and immediately sucked up into the overarching Mage/Templar conflict of the game as they should be.  From both a story standpoint (except for a few throw away lines) and a game standpoint, magic can be blown off everywhere around Kirkwall with absolutely no reaction - unless the very rigid script dictated it to be so.  
 
Now imagine this same thing happening in a book, in a movie or in a television show.  Professional critics of those other media would absolutely lambaste the (media respective) piece, and rightly so.  Why?  Because something like that is demonstrably terrible.  It ruins narrative cohesion (goes against the rules established in the narrative for no reason whatsoever - other than convenience for the developer).  It also ruins the tone and atmosphere (in DAII’s case - both for story and for game).  But, with nary a word from professional game critics on the subject (as well as no mention of many other glaringly obvious issues concerning both narrative and game play) and a similar lackluster approach to other games, the question of competence, and of knowledge related to the medium, rightfully comes up.  And subsequently as a result, we have to question whether these game critics can actually create professional, insightful reviews for the medium.  Are they truly able to take all of the disparate artistic endeavors which go into creating a game into consideration, and then knowledgably relate the good and the bad of each to their readers?  Are they then able, after getting a handle on the parts, to put together a picture of the whole as they once more weigh the good versus the bad on the larger scale?  Do they keep in mind the nature of the medium, and its intrinsic strengths and weaknesses, so that they can relate where games excel as artistic examples of the medium and where they stray too far from the medium as they try to be something else?  Not as far as I have seen.
 
All of these things covered above we expect from critics/reviewers - because it’s their raison d’etre, and because it’s what is considered the professional standard of being a critic.  Unfortunately, where gaming “journalism” is concerned, we all too often receive exactly the opposite of what is expected, the opposite of what is professional. 
 
Looking at the impact of critics opinions on entertainment mediums from a birds-eye view, one of the most telling things for me is the fact that professional film, literature, and television review scores are almost always lower than reader/viewer scores – upwards of 90% of the time.  While, on the other hand, “professional” game review scores are almost always higher than the user scores – again, upwards of 90% of the time - and when looked at collectively for AAA titles the overwhelming majority of the scores sit between 75 and 95 on a scale of 1-100.  Even more damning is the fact that such a large percentage of those AAA titles actually score at or above the 90 mark.  No artistic/entertainment medium is so top heavy with quality releases and must have titles.  That top tier is reserved for the very best of the best and not everything that gets produced by studios X, Y and Z  This perpetually ongoing situation serves to make the “professional” games critics look deservedly ridiculous (and anything but professional) not only to gamers, but also to anyone on the outside of gaming looking in.     
 
While a fair amount of distrust concerning game review scores has always been floated around, games “journalists” and game publishers have been able to maintain plausible deniability by perpetuating, and hiding behind, the defense that the reason people question the awarded scores is because those scores simply don’t match the opinion of those making the accusations.  Unfortunately, the fact that there is some truth to this line of defense lends an air of credibility to it, but it’s certainly not the whole story.  Even more unfortunate is the fact that currently this is used in almost all cases where a portion of the consuming public questions a game’s review scores and is given more surface level credibility because (invariably) gamers who like the game in question back up the perspective without thinking – without looking at the bigger picture.  This has led to the knee-jerk reaction of branding anyone and everyone that questions the scores (and actual quality) of game X as being somehow, in some way “entitled” and/or as a conspiracy theorist.  However, when you pull back and actually look at that bigger picture and consider not only the overall trend of game review scores skewing to the extremely high side of the scale, but the manner in which gaming “journalists” conduct themselves and the perpetuation of their opinions in comparison to the journalists of other artistic mediums, it is pretty obvious that something is rotten in the state of games “journalism”.
 
Now, I’m not going to get into the myriad motivating factors for why the system exists as it does (as that is an essay all unto itself) beyond saying that although some corruption definitely exists (it is an 8 billion dollar a year industry after all) between (some) publishers and (some) games “journalists”, there are other factors at play as well.  Some of the factors are personal in nature – quests for legitimacy gone awry for some “journalists” – while other factors are more benign than outright mutually agreed upon instances of corruption – wanting the extra free advertising that comes with proclaiming something superlative, a game of the year candidate, etc. – but no less detrimental to the overall state of things.
 
Thus we arrive at the current situation kicked into gear with Mass Effect 3.  With the confluence of the objectively bad (read poorly written) Mass Effect 3 ending, BioWare’s response (a combination of pulling inside their shell and a continuation of their recent history of smugness) and the overwhelming positive reviews of the product by games “journalists”, reviews which ignore not only the problems with the ending but all of the other problems within the game as well, all hell has broken loose.  Never before has a game release and games “journalism” in general been put under such intense scrutiny and criticism by so many at one time with a singular point of focus. 
 
Quite simply the dam broke and the games “journalists” panicked.  This situation provided them a chance to self-evaluate and a chance to evaluate the merits of the overall system in place.  They could have directed their energy to creating a standardized review system that uses a scale which makes a semblance of sense.  They could have reevaluated the multiple conflicts of interest present in the system as well as those areas that are merely perceived as conflicts of interest, but they didn’t.  That would have taken some soul searching and some self-actualization and an ability to admit being wrong, which from their responses thus far shows them to be wholly incapable of.  Unfortunately, (and expectedly) the “journalists” for the larger gaming sites/publications showed everyone where their priorities and loyalties really rest - with serving the largest publishers (and subsequently the developers that fall under the aegis of them) rather than with the consumers and/or with journalistic integrity. 
 
I’m certain that some of these “journalists” actually believe that they are working in the best interests of the games industry (while some definitely fall into the less than ethical motivating factors listed above), even some of the most absurdly vociferous of them.  I think that they believe that they are fighting for the recognition and the legitimacy of the medium by taking the stance that they are.  Unfortunately, by ignoring the bigger picture and the overarching problems, and not actually taking up the mantle of being reporters and presenting the whole situation, factually as it exists, they are further perpetuating the problem.  Those that are falsely throwing around artistic integrity (I will expound on this for anyone that wishes – it’s another long topic all unto itself) and accusations of entitlement are not only making the situation worse but are revealing a contempt for the consumers of games –the very people that they are supposed to be serving with unbiased reviews and articles. 
 
What publishers/developers and games journalists fail to understand is that when looked at from the outside they are held in as much a sense of ridiculous contempt as the gamers that they continually portray as the bad guys.  What they also fail to understand is that to continually generalize any consumer-minded gamers with the worst of the ‘fit throwers’ is also to undermine the legitimacy of the industry.  The bottom line is that gamers (we are the very worst consumer group out there, being ruled more than any other group by “But I want…” rather than informed purchasing decisions) publishers/developers and games “journalists” are all equally responsible for the poor perception of games and the games industry by the mainstream media and the public at large.  Until they come to that realization and actually do something to correct that highly questionable course that they are on, true legitimacy will remain a pipedream. 
 
In order for games “journalists” to be taken seriously, to be considered the vanguards of the artistic medium of games like critics for other artistic mediums are, a number of things have to be done. 
 

Intimate knowledge of the various artistic endeavors and how they come together as a game, along with truly understanding the nature and strengths of the medium have to be exhibited.

The current 75-100 review score scale with way too many AAA games coming in above 90 needs to go and be replaced by a true 1-100 (or 0-100) scale.

Standards of quality comparable to what the other entertainment mediums have in place need to be defined and enforced for games.

Standards of quality comparable to what the other entertainment mediums have in place need to be defined and enforced for games critics/reviewers and their reviews. (Linked to #1 but also covering professionalism and application of the knowledge from #1.)

Sensationalism in “reporting” needs to disappear and be replaced by cool professionalism that presents the ‘who, what, where, when, why and how’ of news topics/issues.  Games “journalists” need to stop generalizing and demonizing gaming consumers and approach any problems that arise from a neutral perspective while providing a look at the bigger picture. 

The five items listed here are only the beginning of what needs to be scrutinized and subsequently accomplished.  And although I just mentioned it above I have to reiterate this point because of its importance – games journalists have to take responsibility for their part in the poor perception of games, gamers and the games industry by other media professionals and the public at large.  If this current crop of games “journalists” can’t and/or won’t come to terms with the situation and their part in it – then its time for them to go elsewhere as they are sabotaging the chance of the medium ever getting the recognition that it deserves.        

Modifié par HanabPacal, 01 avril 2012 - 10:43 .


#2
Tirigon

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TL;DR.

But I agree you cant take any reviewers seriously.

#3
Dridengx

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Tirigon wrote...

TL;DR.

But I agree you cant take any reviewers seriously.


but what about forbes, angry joe, and gamefront, and everyone else who was on Retake's side? they trusted them lol

Both sides are being played for hits.

#4
Achkas

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I stopped reading when you said the ending was 'objectively bad'. I'm glad journalists don't buy into such a thing being possible, because when the aesthetic is concerned, it's not possible.

#5
redplague

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That's a lot of words.

#6
kalle90

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TL;DR also except for the last paragraphs.

One thing: I don't see any point in 1-100 scale. It's not like there's a game that deserves 1/100 or 2/100. What does that 1 point difference mean anyway? That game X is 0.1% better than game Y which is of completely different genre?

I'd just settle for 1-5 or 1-10. IMO the biggest failure of sites such as Metacritic (the site itself, there are bigger issues elsewhere) is that 10/10 is turned into 100/100.

On Xbox Marketplace, Good old games etc. On those I rate 5=Must have, 4=Great, with some issues; 3=Thoroughly enjoyable, but nothing special; 2=Weak, with some good bits; 1=Awful. I think that's entirely enough, maybe add half stars for borderline cases. The text is what matters, not the scores.

In the end though I wouldn't stress about it. Game journalism changes if it needs to. If people stop visiting, they get the signal (or they start to blame customers lol)

#7
Tarrax Nightwind

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TL;DR

95% of ME3 was awesome, but as the last 5% was not then reviewers should have panned it? Come on now. You're not Goldfish and neither are they.

Modifié par Tarrax Nightwind, 01 avril 2012 - 12:11 .


#8
Cicero.me

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Dridengx wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

TL;DR.

But I agree you cant take any reviewers seriously.


but what about forbes, angry joe, and gamefront, and everyone else who was on Retake's side? they trusted them lol

Both sides are being played for hits.


Its true. Honestly in general you have to trust your friends or your intuition here. Use online reviews as a guidepoint. Though in general regardless of how you feel about the ending. Mass Effect 3 earned high scores because its faults were far outdistanced by what was done right. In my opinion that is. Maybe just put a warning in reviews stating that there is a good possibility of potential players not liking the ending.

#9
jerrinehart

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This is why anytime I want a REAL review and not just media driven hype I go to Angry Joe. That guy is a shining example to the gaming community and video game sites and what they should be. Entertaining and HONEST.

That guy has been saying the truth for YEARS, not just with ME3.

Modifié par jerrinehart, 01 avril 2012 - 12:18 .


#10
tetrisblock4x1

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Journalists in general are more interested in saying whatever it is that they think the reader wants to hear. It's more about the pandering and hype than anything, that is why you see glowing reviews for cult classics such as the Deus Ex series. Notice how most reviewers either ignored or barely said anything about the boss fights and the AI which were both objectively bad and below industry standard? This Human Revolution didn't have the huge ad campaign and bribe fund unlike EA, but the Deus Ex name is one of the most popular and loved names of PC gaming, and that alone is enough to ensure a load of bull**** journalism from the usual suspects like IGN and Gamespot. They ignore or understate the flaws because they know well that their followers want to like Deus Ex.

#11
redplague

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jerrinehart wrote...

This is why anytime I want a REAL review and not just media driven hype I go to Angry Joe. That guy is a shining example to the gaming community and video game sites and what they should be. Entertaining and HONEST.

That guy has been saying the truth for YEARS, not just with ME3.



But he doesn't review all the games though.

#12
Tarrax Nightwind

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tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Journalists in general are more interested in saying whatever it is that they think the reader wants to hear. It's more about the pandering and hype than anything, that is why you see glowing reviews for cult classics such as the Deus Ex series. Notice how most reviewers either ignored or barely said anything about the boss fights and the AI which were both objectively bad and below industry standard? This Human Revolution didn't have the huge ad campaign and bribe fund unlike EA, but the Deus Ex name is one of the most popular and loved names of PC gaming, and that alone is enough to ensure a load of bull**** journalism from the usual suspects like IGN and Gamespot. They ignore or understate the flaws because they know well that their followers want to like Deus Ex.


The fact that everything else about Deus Ex: Human Revolution, excluding the Boss Fights and ABC endings, was great fun kind of undermines your point. Of course you may also think your opinion is the be all and end all of opinions, but you'd be wrong there too.

Modifié par Tarrax Nightwind, 01 avril 2012 - 12:26 .


#13
Tarrax Nightwind

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double post, sorry.

Modifié par Tarrax Nightwind, 01 avril 2012 - 12:26 .


#14
tetrisblock4x1

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Yeah, it's a good thing they have nothing to do with journalistic integrity which was the whole point of my post. If you don't think that the AI and boss fights in HR are bad it's because you've never seen a game that did it well.

#15
Cicero.me

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Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Journalists in general are more interested in saying whatever it is that they think the reader wants to hear. It's more about the pandering and hype than anything, that is why you see glowing reviews for cult classics such as the Deus Ex series. Notice how most reviewers either ignored or barely said anything about the boss fights and the AI which were both objectively bad and below industry standard? This Human Revolution didn't have the huge ad campaign and bribe fund unlike EA, but the Deus Ex name is one of the most popular and loved names of PC gaming, and that alone is enough to ensure a load of bull**** journalism from the usual suspects like IGN and Gamespot. They ignore or understate the flaws because they know well that their followers want to like Deus Ex.


The fact that everything else about Deus Ex: Human Revolution, excluding the Boss Fights and ABC endings, was great fun kind of undermines your point. Of course you may also think your opinion is the be all and end all of opinions, but you'd be wrong there too.


Similar to Mass Effect 3 don't you think? 98 percent great game and 2 percent disappointing.

#16
Traim Eisenblut

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I`ve read all of it and agree to most of what you are saying.

Some perspectives, like the businessplan for gaming-magazines could be further explained, at least here in germany it is well known that game-magazines are suffering heavily financially because of a lack of advertisment in their magazines since game-retailers all have an online presence and don`t need a 2-page advertisment for their whole inventory, and aswell since advertisment for cigarettes and alcohol are forbidden in such magazines the only advertisers left are gamecompanys. And also the targeted audiance, which are mostly teenagers who wouldn't be too interested in insightful, critical debates based on standartized scientific values but instead want to know what gun makes the biggest boom and if the graphics are all shiny.

When I read articles on said magazines or webpages, I'm already enraged by the language that is used. Grammar doesn't seem to be of any interest to some reviewers, analyzations of the game are focusing on features like gamemechanics, graphics and sound instead of any insightful review of the narratives, the presented fiction and which elements of the game reflect in service of the games main purpose in a whole.
Even badly broken game mechanics get ignored or are only mentioned on a sidenode for triple A titles.

I wonder what kind of qualification someone needs to become a game-reviewer? It's clearly not the same standard as for journalists, which is why I refuse to call them so.

And those guys who are just throwing around with insults against the Retake Movement are reflecting very poorly on their profession as a whole. In an open discussion you do not simply insult others for having a different opinion, you do not hide behind platitudes like "artistic integrity" without giving any explanation of the term and explaining it's context to the debate. You do not alienate a group of your readers by taking only a defensive stand for one side, without analyzing the arguments of the other side and falsifying them. At least not if you want to be regarded as a professional journalist, who should first analyze the topic of the discussion, list the arguments of both sides, correct or verify or falsify them when it`s necessary and than, maybe, give a personal judgement in the last instance.
Moriaty and all the other clowns ranting about the "entitled" fans have only shown me how immature they are and how very little they know about the profession they all want to be part of.

Modifié par Traim Eisenblut, 01 avril 2012 - 12:34 .


#17
Tarrax Nightwind

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Sure, but they didn't invalidate the rest of the game mechanics. They're what made DE:HR fun, not the AI or the Boss fights. Also, your attempt to discredit anyone who's opinion differs from yours is noted.

#18
alperez

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I agree with a lot of what your saying OP, however i would like to draw one distinction between games journalists/critics and movie/tv journalists or critics.

In a movie or tv review the reviews will concentrate more on substance over style whearas in a game review its the other way round in one sinigificant aspect, storytelling.

That to me is where a large part of the problem with reviews of mass effect actually occurs, gameplay, graphics, take precedence over story and continunity.

Whether the art direction or the costumes or the special effects of a movie or tv show are impressive handled or badly handled in the end its how the plotline is handled that creates most of the basis for the reviewer/critic to judge the product.

If the story makes no sense or follows a standarised formula and doesn't do it well or brings nothing new to the formula then in tv or movies it will inevitably lead to a bad review, if the acting is terrible or the script contradicts itself then the movie or tv show will immediately receive harsh criticism.

This in games is a relatively minor point when it comes to how the game is reviewed, plot holes, forgetting its own lore, bad voice acting are almost considered par for the course, so its the other things that get more attention.

The storyline, the va work, the narrative itself only really get attention when they're handled really well and when they're not its no biggie because look at the explosions, or the fact that you can now dual weild weapons or some other little aspect that brings something different to the game.

In essence its like if most games reviewers are Michael Bay fans where story integrity or character arcs don't need to make sense as long as the explosions are there.

So while i agree that there's too much influence being placed on the game's reviewers by the larger companies for the reasons you lay out, i think an equally big problem is that the reviewers themselves are less interested in some of the things they should be.

Most people agree that for almost 99% of the time Mass Effect 3 is arguably the best game in the series and its only in the last few minutes that most people begin to take issue, despite the fact that even during this time there are plot holes, character inconsitencies and lore being broken.

The problem is that the reviewers are so concerned with the 99% and so unitnerested or willing to forgive the 1% that the reviews biased or not will always show this imo.

Game's reviewers need to take a good hard look at themselves not just because of the perception people have that they are in the pockets of the larger companies, but because the medium itself if its to be taken seriously then just graphics and gameplay shouldn't be the only things that make a good game.

Movies, tv shows, hell even music as mediums all know this, for every big budget movie or reality tv show or bubble gum pop act, there are countless well written, well acted, well thought out movies/tv shows or musical artists with gravitas.

So when the awards get handled in these mediums more often than not the big budget action movies or the reality tv shows or the bubblegum pop acts are ignored in favour of the character rich stories or well acted performances or the musical acts that dared to be different.

The game's industry though is still stuck in the populist view being the right one and the lowest common denominator being whats important so this is reflected in the reviews themselves.

#19
Tarrax Nightwind

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Cicero.me wrote...

Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Journalists in general are more interested in saying whatever it is that they think the reader wants to hear. It's more about the pandering and hype than anything, that is why you see glowing reviews for cult classics such as the Deus Ex series. Notice how most reviewers either ignored or barely said anything about the boss fights and the AI which were both objectively bad and below industry standard? This Human Revolution didn't have the huge ad campaign and bribe fund unlike EA, but the Deus Ex name is one of the most popular and loved names of PC gaming, and that alone is enough to ensure a load of bull**** journalism from the usual suspects like IGN and Gamespot. They ignore or understate the flaws because they know well that their followers want to like Deus Ex.


The fact that everything else about Deus Ex: Human Revolution, excluding the Boss Fights and ABC endings, was great fun kind of undermines your point. Of course you may also think your opinion is the be all and end all of opinions, but you'd be wrong there too.


Similar to Mass Effect 3 don't you think? 98 percent great game and 2 percent disappointing.


Exactly, but in neither case does in invalidate ther rest of the game. So why should reviewers base their reviews on that 2% only? I've read lots of ME3 qand DEHR reviews that mention the bad points, but say it's still worth playing the games due to the other 98%.

#20
Cicero.me

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Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

Sure, but they didn't invalidate the rest of the game mechanics. They're what made DE:HR fun, not the AI or the Boss fights. Also, your attempt to discredit anyone who's opinion differs from yours is noted.


What are you talking about? Was that aimed at me? 

"Exactly, but in neither case does in invalidate ther rest of the game. So why should reviewers base their reviews on that 2% only? I've read lots of ME3 qand DEHR reviews that mention the bad points, but say it's still worth playing the games due to the other 98%."

I agree with you here. They both are really great games. I was just pointing out a similiarity.

Modifié par Cicero.me, 01 avril 2012 - 12:37 .


#21
LeBurns

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Wow, um TL;DR, but I skimmed it.

What I can say about it is a lot shorter.

As long as there are paid adds on any Game review site or mag you can ignore the reveiws. At this point I use the user reviews only as holding any overall truth to them.

#22
Merwanor

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I am so happy I do not work as a game journalist and have to give a score to ME3. It would be very hard for me. Because 90% of the game is amazing, but it has an ending that destroys the whole series for me. I would have had to give it 2 scores, 1 where I disregard the ending and 1 where I take the ending into account.

Modifié par Merwanor, 01 avril 2012 - 12:37 .


#23
Tarrax Nightwind

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Cicero.me wrote...

Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

Sure, but they didn't invalidate the rest of the game mechanics. They're what made DE:HR fun, not the AI or the Boss fights. Also, your attempt to discredit anyone who's opinion differs from yours is noted.


What are you talking about? Was that aimed at me? If it was, I am thouroghly confused as it seems to me that you are the one trying to discredit others opinions here. I am not opposed to dissenting opinions, but love a good healthy debate of arguments and positions. If thats trying to discredit someone in your eyes then I guess you a right.:mellow:


Heh, no that was not aimed at you.  :)

I was responding to Tetrisblock...

Modifié par Tarrax Nightwind, 01 avril 2012 - 12:38 .


#24
Cicero.me

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Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

Cicero.me wrote...

Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

Sure, but they didn't invalidate the rest of the game mechanics. They're what made DE:HR fun, not the AI or the Boss fights. Also, your attempt to discredit anyone who's opinion differs from yours is noted.


What are you talking about? Was that aimed at me? If it was, I am thouroghly confused as it seems to me that you are the one trying to discredit others opinions here. I am not opposed to dissenting opinions, but love a good healthy debate of arguments and positions. If thats trying to discredit someone in your eyes then I guess you a right.:mellow:


Heh, no that was not aimed at you.  :)





Oh okay. I was worried because I thought that I was a decently fair minded person.

Modifié par Cicero.me, 01 avril 2012 - 12:38 .


#25
Tarrax Nightwind

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Cicero.me wrote...

Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

Cicero.me wrote...

Tarrax Nightwind wrote...

Sure, but they didn't invalidate the rest of the game mechanics. They're what made DE:HR fun, not the AI or the Boss fights. Also, your attempt to discredit anyone who's opinion differs from yours is noted.


What are you talking about? Was that aimed at me? If it was, I am thouroghly confused as it seems to me that you are the one trying to discredit others opinions here. I am not opposed to dissenting opinions, but love a good healthy debate of arguments and positions. If thats trying to discredit someone in your eyes then I guess you a right.:mellow:


Heh, no that was not aimed at you.  :)





Oh okay. I was worried because I thought that I was a decently fair minded person.


You certainly seem to be.  ;)

Modifié par Tarrax Nightwind, 01 avril 2012 - 12:39 .