269 réponses à ce sujet

[noxsachi]

The talk about the ending seems to be dominating the discussion here, and rightly so, for its many flaws, but I would like to give some feedback about what I felt were some of the most jarring sequences in the game, why they fell flat, and possible ways they could have gone better. Now the dreams especially are seminal to the indoctrination theory, but I will be talking about them as presented, ie. that ventkid was just a kid and the nightmares are simply nightmares.

One of the great things about Bioware games is that the protagonist is a blank slate shaped by you as a player, and Commander Shepard is no exception. In the first two games you get to control how Shepard reacts to things, you choose their backstory, you choose everything essential to Shepard as a character. However in ME3 the game breaks this, by dictating how Shepard feels in a manner that is alienating to the player. Both the ventkid and Thessia's loss are shown in game to be devastating to Shepard, while before the player choose how something impacted the character. These losses could of course be devastating, but the presentation robs them of any force they could have had.

The ventkid is especially egregious because of how heavy handed the scene is with the emotional manipulation. The slow motion, the sad music, the fact that it is a little kid, all telegraph that the scene may as well have been a placard that flashes "BE EMOTIONAL". To me this sequence became laughable because of how blatant they were being. How does a character introduced five seconds before, whom you have no connection with, actually serve to disturb either Shepard(who has faced far more disturbing deaths, no matter the background) or the player? If you wanted that scene to actually be emotional, kill Anderson. I would venture that most players like him, Shepard certainly does, and if you killed him it would impact both Shep and the player.

Thessia is more of a case where you lose via cutscene magic, so the loss does not actually feel devastating. In the fight the cutscene only triggers when you reduce Kai Leng to a certain percentage...which in video game terms means you won! How am I supposed to be upset about that? If you want me to lose...actually make me lose. Have Kai Leng show up with four gunships, instantly kill your squadmates, get you in that little melee battle sequence, then they blow up the temple. It is as cutsceney...but something like that would convey the fact that you actually lost.

Lastly the nightmare sequences are both desperate attempts to move you emotionally and horrible gameplay segments. They are a huge pain to get through and they do little to nothing to the player. Shepard having nightmares is a good conceit given what is going on, but the opportunity to do anything interesting with them is lost. If you want to have a nightmare, actually make it disturbing. Referance Shepard's backstory, what you saw in the beacon, or at the Collector base. Or hell, have a new sequence where you think you are awake, only things go horribly wrong and you wake up and it is a nightmare. Have us have to do something disturbing, like see our LI get huskified and we have to kill them. Something like that would impact both Shepard and the player, while running slowly after a stupid annoying kid just wastes your time.

Basically the point of this long discussion is that Shepard has been connected to the player, but in all of these circumstances the game says that something affects Shepard without it impacting the player at all. This is utterly against the point of a blank character like Shepard because you as a player are supposed to react as Shepard would, something the series had accomplished very well til this point.

[iamthedave3]

The nightmare sequences would have been a good time to have Harbinger turn up, come to think of it. I never liked him as a villain, Sovereign was much better written, but he's better than what we got (nothing).

The Kai Leng defeat could have been handled better. The main issue is that - oddly - Kai never gets to really shine. His appearance on the citadel is brief, and he is defeated even if he manages to kill Thane. But there's never a moment where Kai Leng just gets to look unbeatably awesome. His troll e-mail doesn't work, either.

A Virmire-like scenario that ends with Kai killing one of the squadmates would have worked effectively, I think, if it was obvious that Kai manipulated you into that situation.

Modifié par iamthedave3, 01 avril 2012 - 01:40 .

[lordnyx1]

I agree with just about everything you wrote OP.

Nightmares being actual nightmares instead of just slow mos in particular.

[Peete]

I agree with your statement OP.

However, BSN alread has a reputation for being unsatisfiable and whiny. The endings are our main complaint, bascially everything else we can stomach. We don't want people thinking that we want BW to remake the entire game.

Sorry, too focused about the endings to be thinking about anything else ME atm...

[Kilshrek]

Yeah, these issues got smoothed over because of the huge crease that is the ending, but I do agree on these.

I was just thinking, how the hell does Shep get PTSD/nightmares on account of one kid, when she'd left a subordinate to be atomised on Virmire, and before that had one ripped to shreds by geth drones. Depending on the sequence of events leading up to ME 3, Shep could also have lost an entire ship's crew. Shep also witnessed the liquefication of people to feed a Reaper. One kid getting blasted out of the sky? *shrugs*

And, I'd rather not have more cutscene deaths, if it's all the same to you. Those enrage me like nothing else.

[ahandsomeshark]

Agreed, all the nightmare scenes did was annoy me, I didn't really care one way or another about the kid.

[noxsachi]

iamthedave3 wrote...

The nightmare sequences would have been a good time to have Harbinger turn up, come to think of it. I never liked him as a villain, Sovereign was much better written, but he's better than what we got (nothing).

The Kai Leng defeat could have been handled better. The main issue is that - oddly - Kai never gets to really shine. His appearance on the citadel is brief, and he is defeated even if he manages to kill Thane. But there's never a moment where Kai Leng just gets to look unbeatably awesome. His troll e-mail doesn't work, either.

A Virmire-like scenario that ends with Kai killing one of the squadmates would have worked effectively, I think, if it was obvious that Kai manipulated you into that situation.

I heard that Kai Leng was originally intended to have indoctrinated the VS, and you had to choose between the VS and someone on your squad. That would have actually made him a legitmate villain. But sadly that sequence was lost.

Also I actually rather liked his troll e-mail. I doubt it was what they were going for, but the way the game shows him Kai is just this petulant child, and the e-mail confirms that. It and stabbing him in the gut after breaking his sword were the only good things about him.

[d-boy15]

I agree with you, OP.



from what video above, I wonder where why all funny moments turn in to forced non-sense emotional scene.
one of my shepard is pure renegade, how the hell he depress because kid from nowhere killed?

Modifié par d-boy15, 01 avril 2012 - 01:51 .

[ahandsomeshark]

To me one of the biggest issues with ME3 is it tries to be too many things, and several things that are counter to the ME series, cinematics can be great in games, but not in games built around the idea of control, because you have to wrestle control away from the players to insert them.

If I'm playing GTA, or Heavy Rain the cinematics are great because I know I'm not really Niko I'm just an interactive participant in his story/movie. In ME3, or other (western) RPG's I AM Shepard, it's my story, so I don't want to be constantly interrupted with cut scenes telling me how I should feel or trying to force me to feel a certain way. As beautifully as they were done, they just don't (IMO) fit into RPGs when the selling point is controlling and shaping your own journey.

And I feel like they found this balance wonderfully on Tuchanka, but everywhere else I just felt like my story was constantly being interrupted by some outside force who I don't remember inviting.

Modifié par ahandsomeshark, 01 avril 2012 - 01:49 .

[MegumiAzusa]

I disagree. For me it had the intended emotional impact and I liked the presentation of it. You also don't recognize that the other voices in your nightmare are your fallen squad mates. Shep remembers what s/he has lost, and the child is but an avatar. It can stand for yourself, humanity, or simply everything else you could not save. If that doesn't give you an emotional impact I am sorry that it has been "rubbed in your face" as you would describe it.

[wombat_stalker]

Absolutely loved the nightmares and the Thessia loss and subsequent brooding. Get so annoyed with perfect heroes that never seem to get emotional over anything. If I'm emotional, I'd like the game to have the option to display it. It just has to be done sparingly and well, and I feel ME3 managed to do that. If development had had more time and resources maybe there could have been checks for whether the player goes with the, "yeah, I'm feeling kind of worn out" options or the "nah, I'm fine, don't worry" ones and present Shepard's story accordingly. But that would rather explode the amount of development time AND hide a lot of scenes based on dialogue choices - which the games really don't do much, either dialogue choice will get you the same story just presented differently, this would actually make a different story.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Although i'm sure Bioware intended for you to be emotionally distraught over the death of a little brat, i like to interpret the dreams as the kid being the personification of Earth. It's the only way i can keep my Shepard in character, because he would not give two ****s about a random kid.

[ahandsomeshark]

wombat_stalker wrote...

Absolutely loved the nightmares and the Thessia loss and subsequent brooding. Get so annoyed with perfect heroes that never seem to get emotional over anything. If I'm emotional, I'd like the game to have the option to display it. It just has to be done sparingly and well, and I feel ME3 managed to do that. If development had had more time and resources maybe there could have been checks for whether the player goes with the, "yeah, I'm feeling kind of worn out" options or the "nah, I'm fine, don't worry" ones and present Shepard's story accordingly. But that would rather explode the amount of development time AND hide a lot of scenes based on dialogue choices - which the games really don't do much, either dialogue choice will get you the same story just presented differently, this would actually make a different story.

the fact the game doesn't do this is one of the biggest disappointments for me. What's the point of playing through multiple times for the exact same story/scenes. I'd prefer one that diverges based on choices...isn't that kind of what bioware RPG's were always about?

[the slynx]

I remember (for the life of me, I can't recall the specific article, but it's referenced on threads like this one) someone at BioWare circa Mass Effect 2 saying that Dragon Age was meant to be a roughly first-person narrative, in which you completely control your character; they stated Mass Effect was more of a third-person narrative, with a given character that's partially malleable to player input.

If they conceive of the games in those terms, it makes some sense to structure some of the cutscenes that way. I don't know that all fans would agree with that characterisation of the differences between the games, though.

EDIT:

Here's a link to similar comments by Ray Muzyka.

Modifié par torudoom, 01 avril 2012 - 02:01 .

[noxsachi]

wombat_stalker wrote...

Absolutely loved the nightmares and the Thessia loss and subsequent brooding. Get so annoyed with perfect heroes that never seem to get emotional over anything. If I'm emotional, I'd like the game to have the option to display it. It just has to be done sparingly and well, and I feel ME3 managed to do that. If development had had more time and resources maybe there could have been checks for whether the player goes with the, "yeah, I'm feeling kind of worn out" options or the "nah, I'm fine, don't worry" ones and present Shepard's story accordingly. But that would rather explode the amount of development time AND hide a lot of scenes based on dialogue choices - which the games really don't do much, either dialogue choice will get you the same story just presented differently, this would actually make a different story.

I have nothing against Shepard being emotional. What I am saying is that the choice should be in the players hands. The option for Shep to be devastated should be there, you are entirely right on that. It should simply be a choice. You should have the option to be emotional and upset, just as I should have the option to stoically carry onward and not let it drag me down.

Forcing the character to feel something, when the presentation does not actually make the player feel it, is a problem where you as a player are supposed to define said character.

Edit: Also on the child as an avatar of the lost; this has potential but we have zero connection to that kid. It isn't a kid of a friend of Shepard's, it is literally just some random brat. If you want an avatar of the lost, every Shepard had to lose a squadmate, if not a friend, on Virmire. In fact, they got a shiny new model update, and their VA was on hand...The Virmire victim would have worked far better than just a random kid.

Modifié par noxsachi, 01 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[malra]

I agree that if we remove the endings and look at the game in a serious manner from beginning to the beam of light we begin to see it for what it is: a heavy handed attempt by the writers to move everyone into a single direction which they said they were not going to do. Heavy handed because because the player is constantly being beaten over the head with foreshadowing, heavy handed through all the emotional manipulation, heavy handed through the creation of secondary conflicts and psuedo-villians that are not properly fleshed out (Miranda's father/Sanctuary being a prime example)......I could go on and on, not to mention the problems with the journal, etc. But all of this would have just lain by the wayside if only the ending had not been broken......yes, I said it. The end of my game is broken because there is no option to reflect the storyline my Shepard was engaged in. Since it is missing, the game is broken.

Having said all of that, I agree that all of this needs to be discussed because the overall storytelling among other things is not what I expect to get from Bioware.  However, I mostly focus on the endings because the ending can be fixed.

-edited because I forgot half of my sentence in the epilogue

Modifié par malra, 01 avril 2012 - 02:03 .

[flamingplatypus]

I do agree with this. I felt kind of like Bioware was just trying to say "LOOK A CHILD DIED! THIS IS SAD! GET REVENGE ON THE REAPERS!"
I think it would have been more effective to have the Virmire Survivor in the dreams.

[Goober2049]

I thought the nightmare's were ok, but not because of the kid. I was sad because while you are having those nightmares you can hear the voices of squadmates that have died as whispers, saying some of their lines.

Though I do like your idea for the nightmares, OP. It would have had a much larger impact.

[savionen]

The whole thing felt forced because of the kid.

[ahandsomeshark]

malra wrote...

I agree that if we remove the endings and look at the game in a serious manner from beginning to the beam of light we begin to see it for what it is: a heavy handed attempt by the writers to move everyone into a single direction which they said they were not going to do. Heavy handed because because the player is constantly being beaten over the head with foreshadowing, heavy handed through all the emotional manipulation, heavy handed through the creation of secondary conflicts and psuedo-villians that are not properly fleshed out (Miranda's father/Sanctuary being a prime example)......I could go on and on, not to mention the problems with the journal, etc. But all of this would have just lain by the wayside if only the ending had not been broken......yes, I said it. The end of my game is broken because there is no option to reflect the storyline my Shepard was engaged in. Since it is missing, the game is broken.

Having said all of that, I agree it is better to focus on the ending which can be fixed.

agreed with this sadly. I know a lot of people found the story great but while I found some parts great, the rest of it seemed to forced to me. Why am I supposed to care about Kai Leng? Why are the Quarians suddenly moustache twirling villians, why am I suddenly supposed to care about Sanctuary/Miranda's father when they've barely been mentioned throughout the entire game. I just really feel like the entire story was rushed. The ending just drives the entire mess home.

[Grasich]

The kid was just a bad idea.

The nightmares really could have been done better. Either, make them pure cutscenes, like the visions in ME1, or like was suggested here with them being gameplay where things just go horribly wrong.

The ending of Thessia also really pissed me off. Personally I wish they had just made that the final fight with Kai Leng. Just have him upload the data to the Illusive man, and then have the final fight with him. He used plot armor WAY too much here. Especially considering that with a decent setup you can kill a gunship in just a few seconds normally. EDIT: They tried way too hard to make him an "anti-Shepard", which he wasn't... at all. Saren is a perfect example of a well done "anti-Shepard", with the Illusive man not far behind. Kai-Leng was just an ass with a sword.

Modifié par Grasich, 01 avril 2012 - 02:10 .

[Vikali]

Speaking of forced emotion, it really struck me when Ashley got her face melted. Mainly because she spent the previous hour complaining to my Shepard and accusing her of working with Cerberus so my Shep was hoping she'd just fall off a building. The whole ASHLEY'S HURT IM SAD was very out of character for her.

[RighteousNorn]

Eh; I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, you can make the argument that if what you're looking for is personal agency in Shepard's story, then there's definitely something lacking here. As for the gameplay and story elements themselves, they worked for me, but they /were/ a little manipulative, and whether you appreciate them is really dependent on how much you're willing to overlook that.

On the other hand, Thessia is one of my favorite parts of the game because story-wise, it feels new to me. I feel like the space-marine-who-keeps-going-like-a-bullet-until-he-hits-the-bullseye-and-is-so-manly-and-badass-he-doesn't-let-the-emotions-get-to-him storyline has been done so many times that I expect it, and it bores me. Sure, Shepard's been through a lot and he's never wavered - but he's also been through a lot, and it only bought them a little time, and now the losses keep stacking up... I like that psychological degradation finally starts to kick in. (Heck, Udina even mentions at one point that Kaidan's a good pick for Spectre because he's a veteran who *doesn't* have PTSD, which would be a serious problem, especially after the Reapers invade.)

Could it have been executed better (characters more fleshed out, tying it more into characters the player might already be emotionally involved with) or more according to the idea of Shepard as a 'blank slate'? Sure (though I think just how *much* of a blank slate Shepard is is debatable). But I personally kind of appreciated the dip into realism here & was more than willing to trade in some agency for it. (And there is some wiggle room for the stoicism option - you can choose not to let on to anyone just how much it gets to your Shepard.)

[ed87]

Its quite obvious that the attempts to get players emotional were transperant and poorly thought out. My Shepard in ME3 felt like an NPC for a lot of the dialogue sections in the game.

I cant help but think if Bioware had time to put away their work, and come back later to view it in a more objective and clear state of mind that disaster could have been averted

[ed87]

Vikali wrote...

Speaking of forced emotion, it really struck me when Ashley got her face melted. Mainly because she spent the previous hour complaining to my Shepard and accusing her of working with Cerberus so my Shep was hoping she'd just fall off a building. The whole ASHLEY'S HURT IM SAD was very out of character for her.

I think thats one of the worst things about ME3 compared to the last 2, the characters are now breaking character