223 réponses à ce sujet

[legaldinho]

TemplePhoenix wrote...

1. Blowin' up a relay blows up the system it's in.

2. The many alien species who designed the Crucible would probably have known this too.

3. Logically, they would make sure the Crucible did not blow the relays up the 'usual' way.

The problem we all have is that there is nothing to confirm this ingame other than the fairly vague ending movie. What we should have had is:

CATALYST: This will destroy the relay network.
SHEPARD: Whoa! Won't that kill all of us anyway?
CATALYST: Not in this case, BECAUSE...

...yet another thing missing from the ending, I guess. Probably on the same disc as the explanation for Joker's retreat.

You could have saved me a lot of trouble and verbose posts by posting this 30mins ago, mate.

[Flextt]

Because the eezo cores get ejected prior to them blowing up it creates a pinball effect relay 1 ejects the eezo core to relay 2 that one ejects these two cores onward to relay 3 and so forth. The dud relays then explode and break into pieces.

Proof? I don't want to be a major d-bag here, but considering everything around the ending, even I have my limits regarding "benefit of the doubt." Arrival, as the only canon, established, that garden worlds affected by a Relay explosion, mostly in the same system, would be inhospitable. The ending does not give any other hint to us other than that.
Someone wrote a great thread here: Too much of the ending lets a theory lead to the evidence. That's why so many arguments on BSN end in pure conjecture. It's actually supposed to be the other way around. (Evidence -> Theory)

[Alchemist4]

Either way, destroying the relays **** every race in the galaxy especially the ones that took a stand on Earth.

[Wolven_Soul]

OhoniX wrote...

What difference does it make if it was an asteroid or the beam? An asteroid is not going to make the destruction of a relay any bigger. It can only affect the surrounding area. It is the force or energy of the relay that causes the devestation of the system, not the asteroid.

The beam traveling from relay to relay was carrying the instructions and energy from the crucible to that it could transmit your instructions to every point in the galaxy in an organized fashion. This massive release of energy caused the relays to break down, destroying them, but AFTER all of their energy had been spent, so there would be nowhere for them to go. It's essentially the difference between driving your car so hard and so fast that by the time the gas is spent the engine seizes up, compared to throwing a lighter into the gas tank. One will be a lot more impressive than the other.

Seriously compare the two videos on youtube, in Arrival, the asteroid crushes the relay, which causes its energy field, with nowhere to go and nothing containing it, to go out of control. In the Me3 ending, on the other hand, the energy of the relay is blasted out to the next relay, while the relay itself just sort of crumbles apart. There is no giant supernova explosion, just a "demolition" explosion that would only be of concern if you were right on top of it (or in the transit beam at the time).

right, because clearly those bright R/G/B Explosions stretching over the entire Galaxy are something completely different from the Explosion in Arrival and are completely harmless.

Yes, exactly so. The energy waves released in ME3 were not "explosions", they were traveling WAY too fast for that, they were merely "transformative waves", carrying the Crucible code to every point in the Galaxy.

How do we know that the crucible's beam would use up all the energy of the relay?  In that case, will ships constantly flying through them eventually use them up.  We never hear anything about people having to refill the relay's energy supply, so to speak. 

I am sorry but your voicing your assumptions.  The game does not tell us this.  Yes, we see that the relays do not supernova in the ending cinematic, but everything we have learned in game tells us that it should have.  And before you go berating me for wanting everything explained, yes, I do want it explained.  I have enjoyed reading the explanations that the writers have come up with for things like FTL and biotics. 

And the crucible beam can't be harmless if Joker is running away from it and it causes his ship to crash.

[NGC1300]

DJBare wrote...

NGC1300 wrote... It opens the possibities for certain assumptions
like the energy from the crucible might negate the destruction force or
it might simply be something else and not "explosion" or the energy
from the crucible changes the energy released from the relays into some
other harmless forms of energy, etc.. that's what I was talking about.

So it's contrived, you used the words "assumption", "something else", "might", this is bad story telling, remember, the only information the player got about the destruction of a mass relay is from Arrival, so from that the player does not have to make "assumptions"; it's what we are "told" is the result of destroying a mass relay.

yes it is contrived. but then I personally think it's quite plausible, and yet I do agree explanation from the game itself should be included. It is people's level of confidence that intrigues me, leaving no room for what 'could' be.

Modifié par NGC1300, 01 avril 2012 - 05:18 .

[Barict78]

DJBare wrote...

NGC1300 wrote... It opens the possibities for certain assumptions
like the energy from the crucible might negate the destruction force or
it might simply be something else and not "explosion" or the energy
from the crucible changes the energy released from the relays into some
other harmless forms of energy, etc.. that's what I was talking about.

So it's contrived, you used the words "assumption", "something else", "might", this is bad story telling, remember, the only information the player got about the destruction of a mass relay is from Arrival, so from that the player does not have to make "assumptions"; it's what we are "told" is the result of destroying a mass relay.

Exactly to draw any other conclusion then the one we were presented with is conjecture. As i stated before if BW wanted the relays to NOT kill the SolarSystem and for their to be NO doubt they could have easily Made the Beam cause the Relays to become Inert And non Functioning but they did not they BLEW THEM UP so this is what we have to say it went any other way is speculation and fans adding their own Canon to the already established canon

[Tleining]

legaldinho wrote...

You're deciding what's fan fiction, you see: I could just as well say that the general statement that "all destructions, no matter what the source, of mass relays cause the relay to go nova" is fan fiction. It's based on fans rejecting what they see in the ending: that a beam from the crucible can break up the relays without causing the white flash slow supernova we saw in Arrival. This is rejectionism, because it chooses certain bits of the game and calls them canon- and rejects others and calls them out for failing to adhere to this interpretation of canon.

Sorry, let me make this Clear:
Option 1: RGB different Explosion, Systems intact, Relays destroyed.
Option 2: RGB same Explosion as in Arrival, Systems and everything in it destroyed.
Option 3: Variation of 1 or 2.

All above Options: Interpretations of Endings=Fanfiction

Canon-Ending: Relays Destroyed: Now create Fanfiction.

Personally, considering that the Destruction of a Relay destroys a System (in Arrival) and we never get any indication of something different in this case (Ending of ME3), the ME-Lore seems to support Option 2.
Especially if you then read about the Storyboard idea of a Galactic DarkAge that lasts for (more than) 10.000 years.

And just in Case this wasn't clear enough: Yes. Saying the Destruction of the Relays destroyed the Systems is Fanfiction.

[sinatron]

NGC1300 wrote...

let me clarify this as I saw some people don't quite get the idea. I'm
not saying what hitting the relays matters, all I'm saying is, the relay
in Arrival got blatantly hit by an asteroid while the relays in the
endings were tampered by the
energy of the crucible. It opens the possibities for certain assumptions
like the energy from the crucible might negate the destruction force or
it might simply be something else and not "explosion" or the energy
from the crucible changes the energy released from the relays into some
other harmless forms of energy, etc.. that's what I was talking about.

You just made me think of the possibility the Mass Relays enhance the beam generated by the Crucible until they just fry themselves whilst running out of energy to boost said beam. No form of energy in the relay = no cause for a huge ass explosion, no?

[Zhuinden]

Bail_Darilar wrote...

I don't see why the relays had to be destroyed anyway. It seems they were designed to project the crucibles energy, so who the hell wouldn't design the relays to withstand the energy blast in the first place.

Because this way it was easier to make the cutscenes identical.

[ahleung]

legaldinho wrote...

ahleung wrote...



The destruction of a Mass Relay being so
destructive is not due to the energy caused by an asteroid impact, but
due to the energy originally held by the Mass Relay. That's what I
remember, or so said the ME wiki

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Mass_Relay



So, what caused a Mass Relay destruction is not important.

As long as it is destroyed, releasing the energy it holds, it's catastrophic.



RGB beams might be harmless. But they destroyed the Mass Relays. It's the Mass Relay destruction itself being harmful.

DJBare wrote...

The asteroid was nothing but
the firing pin, good grief, the energy released by a destroyed mass
relay would make an asteroid look like a party popper.

Wolven_Soul wrote...

I really wish I knew where you people were getting the idea that the method of destruction of a mass relay has anything to do with what happens once the relay is gone.  It is not the asteroid that causes that devesation, it is the mass relay being destroyed.  It doesn't matter how it is destroyed.

If I have a bomb, pushing the detonator button lightly is not going to make the explosion any less than if I smack the button with a hammer.

You're all sayin the same thing, essentially. I'm not saying the asteroid causes the nova. I'm saying based on what we've seen, a blunt impact causes the relays to break up, and in that case this causes the relay to go nova.

In the case of the crucible, we see a beam going through the relays, then causing them to break up. We don't see the nova. We've been told by the abominable godchild that releasing the energy will cause the relays to break up, and some other consequences will follow depending on its colour. The natural assumption is that life will go on (no matter how hard, and potentially disastrous: for the Sol system's visitors in particular). Given that the game- the same game that told you of this piece of canon you hold so dear- told you that, why strain to say "well the ending means all life is extinguished in solar systems housing a relay because of the nova?"

You're supplying your own interpretation here, and calling it canon. In a sea of criticisms of the ending, most of which are valid, this is the last stretch of water I'd sail my boat on.

But people are clearly very upset. I'm now arguing witn loads of people at the same time, so I apologise if I can't keep track of all of them.

It's interesting that people supplying their own interpretation (RGB explosion is different) accusing people using evidence from game (Mass Relay destruction releases its own energy and go nova) of supplying their own interpretation.

I gave up here

[Wolven_Soul]

Wolven_Soul wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Blowing up a mass relay destroys the star system.

This is based on Arrival DLC.

Vhalkyrie shoulda wrote...
Blowing up a mass relay with an asteroid impact destroys the star system. Using the technology which created the relays, this can be done without destroying the star system.

This is based on what happens in the game. Arrival DLC happens in the game. The ending does too. Ergo, canon has been enriched, and generalised, absolute statements like yours no longer apply. The key difference is in Arrival we see the Nova explosion, and in the endings we don't. We just see the relay break up.

Strawman argument with no basis.  Reread the quote I was highlighting.

Don't tell me what I should have written.  Especially in the context of it being abjectly false.

I was presenting you with a modified canonical statement. The source of the modification is the same as the original: the videogame itself. The pertinent question is: why do you refuse to modify the canonical belief?

Except it is not up to you, or to us to modify the canon.  It is not our story.  We can only go on what we have already learned.  If we are supposed to believe that the crucible beam does not cause the relays to super nova, that is fine, but that needs to be explained in the game. 

[Geneaux486]

Nothing to suggest the relays destroyed everything, and that wouldn't be a plothole. The Alpha Relay incident was unique for multiple reasons. For one thing, it was unique in the massive amounts of power it could generate relative to other Mass Relays, and was destroyed when an asteroid was forcibly rammed into it. The circumstances of the relay destruction at the end of ME3 involves the relays going into overdrive and spreading the Crucible's energy as well as broadcasting it. They break apart, but it's entirely possible that they don't have enough energy left over to cause a super nova type explosion. This is hinted at further by Joker's crash-landing on the tropical planet. Joker crashed because the pulse did something to the Normandy's propulsion, so the planet he landed on would have also been in range of the blast, but clearly it is not devastated. So basically, no, the relays did not go supernova and destroy everything.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 01 avril 2012 - 05:24 .

[Evil Minion]

Everyone's supplying their own interpretation. It's all we can do thanks to the unclear nature of the ending.

I seriously hope Bioware explains the "magic waves."

[NGC1300]

sinatron wrote...

NGC1300 wrote...

let me clarify this as I saw some people don't quite get the idea. I'm
not saying what hitting the relays matters, all I'm saying is, the relay
in Arrival got blatantly hit by an asteroid while the relays in the
endings were tampered by the
energy of the crucible. It opens the possibities for certain assumptions
like the energy from the crucible might negate the destruction force or
it might simply be something else and not "explosion" or the energy
from the crucible changes the energy released from the relays into some
other harmless forms of energy, etc.. that's what I was talking about.

You just made me think of the possibility the Mass Relays enhance the beam generated by the Crucible until they just fry themselves whilst running out of energy to boost said beam. No form of energy in the relay = no cause for a huge ass explosion, no?

 I don't know anything much more than you do. Harmless explosion , may be? thoughts?

Still, I know it lacks explanation if that's realyy the case but it's irrelevant now.

[Wolven_Soul]

Evil Minion wrote...

We saw the mass relays for a split second.

I saw a burst of colored light followed by what appeared to be the relays "disintegrating." We also saw a "colored wave."

What was the "colored wave?" We don't know. Did the relays actually blow up? We don't know.

Speculate all you want based on three second of footage, but it's still just speculation. And they obviously didn't destroy everything. Civilization continues to exist very far into the future.

They all just live like Amish people (?).

Yes, because not every system has a relay in it.  I do not think that civilization is completely gone, but it does push the galaxy into a dark age that is going to take a seriously long time to recover from.

Also, the boy asks the Stargazer dude when he can go and visit the stars, implying that it is not something that they can do at that point.  I am not saying that is fact, just what it seems.

[Ishiken]

legaldinho wrote...


I was presenting you with a modified canonical statement. The source of the modification is the same as the original: the videogame itself. The pertinent question is: why do you refuse to modify the canonical belief?

It is the writer's job to modify canon and it is also the writer's job to present to the reader an explanation on why certain events defy canon. It is not the reader or the player's job to read and make sense of non-canon events. It is bad writing. Readers do not modify the canon.

[Barict78]

ahleung wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

ahleung wrote...



The destruction of a Mass Relay being so
destructive is not due to the energy caused by an asteroid impact, but
due to the energy originally held by the Mass Relay. That's what I
remember, or so said the ME wiki

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Mass_Relay



So, what caused a Mass Relay destruction is not important.

As long as it is destroyed, releasing the energy it holds, it's catastrophic.



RGB beams might be harmless. But they destroyed the Mass Relays. It's the Mass Relay destruction itself being harmful.

DJBare wrote...

The asteroid was nothing but
the firing pin, good grief, the energy released by a destroyed mass
relay would make an asteroid look like a party popper.

Wolven_Soul wrote...

I really wish I knew where you people were getting the idea that the method of destruction of a mass relay has anything to do with what happens once the relay is gone.  It is not the asteroid that causes that devesation, it is the mass relay being destroyed.  It doesn't matter how it is destroyed.

If I have a bomb, pushing the detonator button lightly is not going to make the explosion any less than if I smack the button with a hammer.

You're all sayin the same thing, essentially. I'm not saying the asteroid causes the nova. I'm saying based on what we've seen, a blunt impact causes the relays to break up, and in that case this causes the relay to go nova.

In the case of the crucible, we see a beam going through the relays, then causing them to break up. We don't see the nova. We've been told by the abominable godchild that releasing the energy will cause the relays to break up, and some other consequences will follow depending on its colour. The natural assumption is that life will go on (no matter how hard, and potentially disastrous: for the Sol system's visitors in particular). Given that the game- the same game that told you of this piece of canon you hold so dear- told you that, why strain to say "well the ending means all life is extinguished in solar systems housing a relay because of the nova?"

You're supplying your own interpretation here, and calling it canon. In a sea of criticisms of the ending, most of which are valid, this is the last stretch of water I'd sail my boat on.

But people are clearly very upset. I'm now arguing witn loads of people at the same time, so I apologise if I can't keep track of all of them.

It's interesting that people supplying their own interpretation (RGB explosion is different) accusing people using evidence from game (Mass Relay destruction releases its own energy and go nova) of supplying their own interpretation.

I gave up here

Ya im done too they wont see reason and dismiss fact as if it isnt there and supply their own made up or conjectured facts in its place then accuse us of making things up and not following cannon. Really this whole thread is akin to ur "conversation" with the spacebrat. Silly Circular "Logic" to Shove some nonsense point home they just dance around the established Canon and put their own facts in to please themselves.

[TemplePhoenix]

legaldinho wrote...

TemplePhoenix wrote...

1. Blowin' up a relay blows up the system it's in.

2. The many alien species who designed the Crucible would probably have known this too.

3. Logically, they would make sure the Crucible did not blow the relays up the 'usual' way.

The problem we all have is that there is nothing to confirm this ingame other than the fairly vague ending movie. What we should have had is:

CATALYST: This will destroy the relay network.
SHEPARD: Whoa! Won't that kill all of us anyway?
CATALYST: Not in this case, BECAUSE...

...yet another thing missing from the ending, I guess. Probably on the same disc as the explanation for Joker's retreat.

You could have saved me a lot of trouble and verbose posts by posting this 30mins ago, mate.

But... I LOVE verbose posts!

[Shiran]

ahleung wrote...

It's interesting that people supplying their own interpretation (RGB explosion is different) accusing people using evidence from game (Mass Relay destruction releases its own energy and go nova) of supplying their own interpretation.

I gave up here

Well, except the game clearly shows that Life and planets are not destroyed. Heck in Control version, Citadel itself is just chilling there protecting the Sheparoid-Catalyst.

[Wolven_Soul]

NGC1300 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

NGC1300 wrote... It opens the possibities for certain assumptions
like the energy from the crucible might negate the destruction force or
it might simply be something else and not "explosion" or the energy
from the crucible changes the energy released from the relays into some
other harmless forms of energy, etc.. that's what I was talking about.

So it's contrived, you used the words "assumption", "something else", "might", this is bad story telling, remember, the only information the player got about the destruction of a mass relay is from Arrival, so from that the player does not have to make "assumptions"; it's what we are "told" is the result of destroying a mass relay.

yes it is contrived. but then I personally think it's quite plausible, and yet I do agree explanation from the game itself should be included. It is people's level of confidence that intrigues me, leaving no room for what 'could' be.

That level of confidance probably comes from the fact that everything is so well explained, all the time.  If a cat suddenly learned how to play a piano we would probably get a codex telling us why it was possible.  Since they did not explain in game that the destruction would be different, we can only go on what we know. 

[Geneaux486]

Shiran wrote...

ahleung wrote...

It's interesting that people supplying their own interpretation (RGB explosion is different) accusing people using evidence from game (Mass Relay destruction releases its own energy and go nova) of supplying their own interpretation.

I gave up here

Well, except the game clearly shows that Life and planets are not destroyed. Heck in Control version, Citadel itself is just chilling there protecting the Sheparoid-Catalyst.

Yeah, certain things are not open to interpretation, they're presented to us upfront.  In the best endings Earth takes the brunt of the explosion and is left in tact, and the tropical planet Joker lands on is also in tact, even though it would have been as much in range of the explosion as Joker himself was.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 01 avril 2012 - 05:31 .

[NGC1300]

TemplePhoenix wrote...

legaldinho wrote...

TemplePhoenix wrote...

1. Blowin' up a relay blows up the system it's in.

2. The many alien species who designed the Crucible would probably have known this too.

3. Logically, they would make sure the Crucible did not blow the relays up the 'usual' way.

The problem we all have is that there is nothing to confirm this ingame other than the fairly vague ending movie. What we should have had is:

CATALYST: This will destroy the relay network.
SHEPARD: Whoa! Won't that kill all of us anyway?
CATALYST: Not in this case, BECAUSE...

...yet another thing missing from the ending, I guess. Probably on the same disc as the explanation for Joker's retreat.

You could have saved me a lot of trouble and verbose posts by posting this 30mins ago, mate.

But... I LOVE verbose posts!

Gotta agree this should be the best explanation of the issue.

[legaldinho]

Yep, that's the key difference. We're supplying interpretation to fit what we see in the game. They supply theirs to give one in-game event (arrival dlc) primacy over another. It's a rejectionist interpretation. The key criticism is, why do we have to supply interpretations at all? That is the real failing of the endings in this respect.

[Wolven_Soul]

sinatron wrote...

NGC1300 wrote...

let me clarify this as I saw some people don't quite get the idea. I'm
not saying what hitting the relays matters, all I'm saying is, the relay
in Arrival got blatantly hit by an asteroid while the relays in the
endings were tampered by the
energy of the crucible. It opens the possibities for certain assumptions
like the energy from the crucible might negate the destruction force or
it might simply be something else and not "explosion" or the energy
from the crucible changes the energy released from the relays into some
other harmless forms of energy, etc.. that's what I was talking about.

You just made me think of the possibility the Mass Relays enhance the beam generated by the Crucible until they just fry themselves whilst running out of energy to boost said beam. No form of energy in the relay = no cause for a huge ass explosion, no?

That is a fair assumption, but here is another fair assumption.  The relays were created by the Reapers who are much more evolved than any of the races that had anything to do with the crucible.  So it is hard to fathom anything being able to fry such a highly advanced piece of technology.

My point being, we do not know until it is better explained.

That is one of the main problems with these endings.  Nothing is explained to us, and previously in this serious, everything has been explained to us.  I wonder if Bioware is starting to regret the codex yet.  If we did not have the codex, then this arguement would not be nearly as heated, if it existed at all.

Modifié par Wolven_Soul, 01 avril 2012 - 05:36 .