508 réponses à ce sujet

[grimkillah]

VampireSoap wrote...

grimkillah wrote...

The theroy in which I have the right to believe is my belief.

Please listen to yourself, does your statement really make sense? Are you denying that there is a difference between a person's belief and his right to believe? So the freedom of religion is the same as faith on Christianity?

On the contrary, I found your views are more closely associated to Christianity than mine. The one and only truth? I know mine is a lie which I woven myself, and I am okay with that, I found solace in the lie. But you believe yours is the truth, and trying to proselyting against all those who differ from you.

[Getorex]

The "theory" (sorry, you mean "hypothesis" as this in no way reaches the level of a "theory") is that Bioware INTENTIONALLY sabotaged their game, destroyed goodwill of players, took MEGA PR hits, all so they could pull a prank and release a "real" ending later.

Bunkum. The theory fails as this is NOT what Bioware or ANY sane company would do or, in this case, DID do. The IT was a nice HYPOTHESIS but it fails basic business, marketing, and PR tests. The released DEVELOPER NOTES clearly state that the end is the end, as it is. It wasn't a lead-in to an April Fool's prank (costing Bioware BIG).

Bioware may have entertained putting a stint of indoctrination schtick into the game near the end but they ABANDONED IT because it was undoable. They dropped it. Hence, they did not keep it and HAD to take another direction. They went with a shortcut as they were running out of time.

The end. Occam's Razor is you friend, use it.

[VampireSoap]

iVitriol wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

iVitriol wrote...
Red herrings? This guy just comes off as a ******.

No offense, but have you been in college? Critical thinking? Logic 101? http://www.nizkor.or...ed-herring.html

Also, please stop calling names. It's not your first time to do so and it's really rude. Please acknowledge that.

Ah, so now you act cooth after bashing religion in your OP.
Lol @ you.

Another Red Herring. Whether I truly insulted religious people offers no support to your rude behaviors. If you truly want to discuss the topic, do so without insults!! Otherwise, I would once again like to humbly request that you leave this thread.

[Getorex]

So...the BIG question for the religious IT types around these here parts...when early to mid-April comes and goes and there is NO ENDING released that uses IT...will you drop you religion then or will you continue to worship at the alter of IT?

[VampireSoap]

grimkillah wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

grimkillah wrote...

The theroy in which I have the right to believe is my belief.

Please listen to yourself, does your statement really make sense? Are you denying that there is a difference between a person's belief and his right to believe? So the freedom of religion is the same as faith on Christianity?

On the contrary, I found your views are more closely associated to Christianity than mine. The one and only truth? I know mine is a lie which I woven myself, and I am okay with that, I found solace in the lie. But you believe yours is the truth, and trying to proselyting against all those who differ from you.

I do not "believe" that my point of view is the truth, I reason that it is true, and I do not force my point of view upon you or anyone else. I've been trying to argue that IT is not true. I am not in a position of making claims. The IT theorists are the ones who are making the claims.

Also, once again, I do not disrespect your right to believe in anything you like. You can delude yourself for the rest of your life and I will die defending your right to do so. But do I think that what you are believing is wrong? Damn right I do! No rational beings would agree that believing in lies and stories is a healthy thing to do.

[alienatedflea]

If IT is real...then everyone is already indoctrinated because if the idea is that you have to hang out around reaper technology to brainwashed then all spacefaring species have been using the mass relays (REAPER TECH) for thousands of years...that arguement is flawed to the core...OP is right

Modifié par alienatedflea, 02 avril 2012 - 01:26 .

[grimkillah]

VampireSoap wrote...

I do not "believe" that my point of view is the truth, I reason that it is true, and I do not force my point of view upon you or anyone else. I've been trying to argue that IT is not true. I am not in a position of making claims. The IT theorists are the ones who are making the claims.

Also, once again, I do not disrespect your right to believe in anything you like. You can delude yourself for the rest of your life and I will die defending your right to do so. But do I think that what you are believing is wrong? Damn right I do! No rational beings would agree that believing in lies and stories is a healthy thing to do.

So you claim your point of view isn't the truth, simpily that you reasoned it is true, so how is that different to people who claim that IT is true through their own reasoning? You are just a different side of the same coin. No one except BioWare know the truth, and until they tell us the truth, everything is a mere speculation. You are living in a dream just like I am, except I know it is not real, while you have yet comes to term with it.

Modifié par grimkillah, 02 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[VampireSoap]

grimkillah wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

I do not "believe" that my point of view is the truth, I reason that it is true, and I do not force my point of view upon you or anyone else. I've been trying to argue that IT is not true. I am not in a position of making claims. The IT theorists are the ones who are making the claims.

Also, once again, I do not disrespect your right to believe in anything you like. You can delude yourself for the rest of your life and I will die defending your right to do so. But do I think that what you are believing is wrong? Damn right I do! No rational beings would agree that believing in lies and stories is a healthy thing to do.

So you claim your point of view isn't the truth, simpily that you reasoned it is true, so how is that different to people who claim that IT is true through their own reasoning? You are just a different side of the same coin. No one except BioWare know the truth, and until they tell us the truth, everything is a mere speculation. You are living in a dream just like I am, except I know it is not real, while you are yet comes to turn with it.

So you are saying that nothing can be gained through reasoning? And that everyone has his or her own truth? But in real life, there is one and only one reality. That is why either the theories of relativity are right or they are wrong. There is no other way. There is only one objective truth. And that's also why you don't get a doctor's degree by denying a scientific theory and say that it is your right to do so and that there's more than one truth.

Simple fact: The guy who doesn't believe in gravity doesn't mean he won't die after jumping out of the window on the top floor of a skyscraper.

[THEE_DEATHMASTER]

alienatedflea wrote...

If IT is real...then everyone is already indoctrinated because if the idea is that you have to hang out around reaper technology to brainwashed then all spacefaring species have been using the mass relays (REAPER TECH) for thousands of years...that arguement is flawed to the core...OP is right

Codex says slow indoctrination can last months to years and fast only days to weeks. The Reapers come every 50,000 years, so the species have enough time to travel and populate other places. If the relays were indoctrination devices, this wouldn't really work at all. Certain devices (and the Reapers themselves), may be useful for indoctrinating (object Rho), but not absolutely everything.

[KevShep]

Overule wrote...

Hope makes people stupid. That's about all that needs to be said.

Hope can keep you sane and alive, Like a soldier in battle. That is not stupid.

What is stupid is when people use hope to go against facts.

[grimkillah]

VampireSoap wrote...
So you are saying that nothing can be gained through reasoning? And that everyone has his or her own truth? But in real life, there is one and only one reality. That is why either the theories of relativity are right or they are wrong. There is no other way. There is only one objective truth. And that's also why you don't get a doctor's degree by denying a scientific theory and say that it is your right to do so and that there's more than one truth.

Simple fact: The guy who doesn't believe in gravity doesn't mean he won't die after jumping out of the window on the top floor of a skyscraper.

If something can be gained from reasoning, then both sides of this argument are able to gain something, which doesn't solve your dilemma.

As for one reality, there is no one reality, reality is a concept woven together by billions of individual point of view, and that is just on Earth, so there is no one reality, as there is no one point of view that is true and correct and includes all that has existed, and will ever exist in the known universe. Even the theory of relativity is just a theory, it may hold true on earth, but can you say that it will hold true anywhere without actually go and test it yourself? Remember this universe is very big, and you only have a very limited information, to claim that a universal truth would be unwise at best.

[MACharlie1]

KevShep wrote...

Overule wrote...

Hope makes people stupid. That's about all that needs to be said.

Hope can keep you sane and alive, Like a soldier in battle. That is not stupid.

What is stupid is when people use hope to go against facts.

No. Being hopeful is, logically anyway, being stupid. But I think most people would agree that they'd rather be stupidly hopeful then intelligently dead. Without any hope, you might as well be dead. And by any hope I mean, you hope for good fortune the next day. You hope you find love. Instead of just wandering around this world as an empty shell of nothing besides your sense of survival. I can't even say that is what seperates animals and people - animals actually feel things. 

[VampireSoap]

grimkillah wrote...

If something can be gained from reasoning, then both sides of this argument are able to gain something, which doesn't solve your dilemma.

As for one reality, there is no one reality, reality is a concept woven together by billions of individual point of view, and that is just on Earth, so there is no one reality, as there is no one point of view that is true and correct and includes all that has existed, and will ever exist in the known universe. Even the theory of relativity is just a theory, it may hold true on earth, but can you say that it will hold true anywhere without actually go and test it yourself? Remember this universe is very big, and you only have a very limited information, to claim that a universal truth would be unwise at best.

Please explain what all the scientists are doing if nothing can be gained through reasoning.

And the theory of relativity is not "just a theory", it is a fact. In daily life, when we say "a theory", we are usually just talking about an assumption, not even a hypothesis. But in science, when we discuss "the theories", we are talking about the greatest achievements in the history of mankind. They are facts that have been proven by countless experiments. The one and only truth within the current knowledge of mankind and the only criteria for all later scienstists conducting experiments..

[VampireSoap]

MACharlie1 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Overule wrote...

Hope makes people stupid. That's about all that needs to be said.

Hope can keep you sane and alive, Like a soldier in battle. That is not stupid.

What is stupid is when people use hope to go against facts.

No. Being hopeful is, logically anyway, being stupid. But I think most people would agree that they'd rather be stupidly hopeful then intelligently dead. Without any hope, you might as well be dead. And by any hope I mean, you hope for good fortune the next day. You hope you find love. Instead of just wandering around this world as an empty shell of nothing besides your sense of survival. I can't even say that is what seperates animals and people - animals actually feel things. 

Yes, what separates humans and animals? Emotion or logic? Instinct or intelligence?

[grimkillah]

VampireSoap wrote...
Please explain what all the scientists are doing if nothing can be gained through reasoning.

And the theory of relativity is not "just a theory", it is a fact. In daily life, when we say "a theory", we are usually just talking about an assumption, not even a hypothesis. But in science, when we discuss "the theories", we are talking about the greatest achievements in the history of mankind. They are facts that have been proven by countless experiments. The one and only truth within the current knowledge of mankind and the only criteria for all later scienstists conducting experiments..

I don't need to explain what the scientists are doing, because I didn't make the connection that reasoning achieves nothing, just that Your reasoning achieves nothing, because the reasoning achieved through IT would cancel out your reasoning, since both are not conclusive on the issue at hand.

As for your theory, it might be a fact on earth, but without investigating or experiment how could you claim that the theory is the universal truth? Has anyone conducted experiment at the furthest reach of our universe? Scientists might use it as a criteria in their experiment, but their experiments will continue as long as there are still things to discover, after all isn't that the point, to prove that a whether a theory is the universal truth? You claim a theory is universal truth before you tested your theory throughout the universe, I wonder who is the real dreamer.

[MACharlie1]

VampireSoap wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Overule wrote...

Hope makes people stupid. That's about all that needs to be said.

Hope can keep you sane and alive, Like a soldier in battle. That is not stupid.

What is stupid is when people use hope to go against facts.

No. Being hopeful is, logically anyway, being stupid. But I think most people would agree that they'd rather be stupidly hopeful then intelligently dead. Without any hope, you might as well be dead. And by any hope I mean, you hope for good fortune the next day. You hope you find love. Instead of just wandering around this world as an empty shell of nothing besides your sense of survival. I can't even say that is what seperates animals and people - animals actually feel things. 

Yes, what separates humans and animals? Emotion or logic? Instinct or intelligence?

In most cases, I would say self-awareness which I guess would translate into intelligence with logic thrown in. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that someone who isn't hopeful in some regards or posses any emotions isn't human or even living. A machine. 

[Malanek]

I thought it was nonsense when it was at the very start just described as a hallucination. But after having all the little hints pointed out I started to consider how I would implement indoctrination in a game like ME and it fits perfectly. Plus things like the illusive man taking control of you just don't make sense in the absence of indoctrination. At that point I started believing in it. My belief has been shaken a bit by the fact I would have thought we would have the ending by now if it was true, but I don't know what is going on behind closed doors. I still think it is likely true but it could just be that the writers hinted at it without ever making up their own minds leaving it deliberately vague on purpose.

[VampireSoap]

grimkillah wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
Please explain what all the scientists are doing if nothing can be gained through reasoning.

And the theory of relativity is not "just a theory", it is a fact. In daily life, when we say "a theory", we are usually just talking about an assumption, not even a hypothesis. But in science, when we discuss "the theories", we are talking about the greatest achievements in the history of mankind. They are facts that have been proven by countless experiments. The one and only truth within the current knowledge of mankind and the only criteria for all later scienstists conducting experiments..

I don't need to explain what the scientists are doing, because I didn't make the connection that reasoning achieves nothing, just that Your reasoning achieves nothing, because the reasoning achieved through IT would cancel out your reasoning, since both are not conclusive on the issue at hand.

As for your theory, it might be a fact on earth, but without investigating or experiment how could you claim that the theory is the universal truth? Has anyone conducted experiment at the furthest reach of our universe? Scientists might use it as a criteria in their experiment, but their experiments will continue as long as there are still things to discover, after all isn't that the point, to prove that a whether a theory is the universal truth? You claim a theory is universal truth before you tested your theory throughout the universe, I wonder who is the real dreamer.

Oh, so scientific theories only work on earth. So in space, an object in motion does not stay in motion? Because we never conducted experiments out in space to know enough to tell? And all the astronomers are just lying about the existence of Black Holes because they only found out about the Black Holes by carefully calculating the orbits of the giant stars near the center of our galaxy. We can't believe that, can we? Those are all just reasonings, right?

[VampireSoap]

MACharlie1 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Yes, what separates humans and animals? Emotion or logic? Instinct or intelligence?

In most cases, I would say self-awareness which I guess would translate into intelligence with logic thrown in. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that someone who isn't hopeful in some regards or posses any emotions isn't human or even living. A machine. 

I just want to say that you don't have to give up hope in order to be objective. Knowing reality as it is actually significantly improves the chance of survival.

And just for the record, anthropologists believe that the ability to make sophisticated tools is the mark that distinguishes intelligent life forms and non-sentient beings.

[grimkillah]

VampireSoap wrote...
Oh, so scientific theories only work on earth. So in space, an object in motion does not stay in motion? Because we never conducted experiments out in space to know enough to tell? And all the astronomers are just lying about the existence of Black Holes because they only found out about the Black Holes by carefully calculating the orbits of the giant stars near the center of our galaxy. We can't believe that, can we? Those are all just reasonings, right?

But we have conducted experiments on object when we are in space. But how do you know for 100% certainty that it still follow the theory when it is no longer measurable by you? So you only know when you check on it, so the theory is only true when it is been observed. But what happen when it is not been observed? Do you know 100% certainty that it still follow the theory?

So you believe the word of a scientist without own investigation? So you took their word as truth on faith value? Aren't you just the same as us then?

[grimkillah]

VampireSoap wrote...
I just want to say that you don't have to give up hope in order to be objective. Knowing reality as it is actually significantly improves the chance of survival.

And just for the record, anthropologists believe that the ability to make sophisticated tools is the mark that distinguishes intelligent life forms and non-sentient beings.

Ah yes the seek for objectivity in a subjective world, the holy grail.

Ps. what classify as sophisticated tool? And while you are at it, when will a sand dune stop been a sand dune, if you remove it one grain of sand at a time, the 500billionth, or the 500billionth and one?

[mcsupersport]

In science a "Law" is a proven idea or concept, such as the Law of Gravity.

In science a "Theory", is the best working idea at the given time, but still hasn't been proven 100%. To say the Theory of Relativity is 100% true and factual is actually false. Most scientists will tell you it is probably 100% true, but they haven't proven it yet not to a point of calling it a Law, and are actually making minor changes to it as we speak, to include Quarks and other never before known ideas thus making it still a theory, not fact.

So until the scientists get around to changing the terms to the Laws of Relativity, you can't say it is 100% factual and above all speculation or change.