508 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

kalle90 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

You know, you should really start a scientific project on this.

Evidence of the current ending being real:
- Because this is what we see at the end of the game ("It's always been like this")
...

Evidence against it:
- Shrubs where there wasn't any
- Anderson
- Eyes
- These days not every game comes with a proper ending
...

Heck, for scientific purposes you could even check out intoxination theory, dream theory etc.

Then come back with the results. Error margins and all.

After your comment being posted, I don't think I have to

Why exactly? The science guy inside you doesn't want to unravel the absolute truth?

You can conclude with absolute certainty it's just bad writing because...

Well, for one thing, I don't go on and participate in the competition of speculation. If I'm going to give evidence, I'll go inview the Bioware officials, cite reliable sources that Bioware confirms.

Besides, your comment basically says it all. The "evidence" of the theory isn't evidence at all. You can never go from seeiing shady trees and TIM changing eyes to Shepard being indoctrinated the whole time. Through faith maybe, but not through logic and reason.

[pixelface]

kamikazekeeg wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

What? No, no. I really don't get it. Tell me if I'm wrong because I'm really not sure. According to the IT, don't the Reapers destory everything and all that you hold dear is gone? What is the point of Shepard winning the fight in his head? I don't understand why that's a fantastic ending. But you must have your reasons, no?

I don't believe it means that at all.  What I get from it, is that the ending still hasn't finished and there is more to accomplish. If the IT happens and Shepard wins the fight for his mind, he can still work to finish off the Reapers. A fantastic ending to me, just means some proper closure, even if it might not be a happy ending or anything like that.  Even a depressing ending can be good if it makes sense.

precisely, it just didn't make any sense and that's really what broke the ending, but if indoctrination is real than it would explain a lot, which is why the fans really like this idea. for example, have you seen the movie "repo man".

[SLana]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

While a lot of the pieces fit, the design doesn't. Games tell their stories through design, and the way the endgame was set up doesn't mesh well with the Indoctrination Theory. With the lowest EMS where your fleet gets curb stomped and you are barely equipped to even tackle the mission, your only option is to destroy the Reapers. If the theory worked, then your only option in that scenario should be failure of some kind.

Yes but "destroy" is also the only ending when you can see that "breathing Shepard" piece and only if you did significant work on collecting war assets, galaxy readiness etc.

[Darth Wolfenbarg]

SLana wrote...

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

While a lot of the pieces fit, the design doesn't. Games tell their stories through design, and the way the endgame was set up doesn't mesh well with the Indoctrination Theory. With the lowest EMS where your fleet gets curb stomped and you are barely equipped to even tackle the mission, your only option is to destroy the Reapers. If the theory worked, then your only option in that scenario should be failure of some kind.

Yes but "destroy" is also the only ending when you can see that "breathing Shepard" piece and only if you did significant work on collecting war assets, galaxy readiness etc.

That's not relevant to what I said. Sure, destroy has a unique outcome if you have the maximum EMS. If you do everything possible, then the idea is that you beat the Reapers and didn't succumb to being their thrall. However, if you rush through the game and make lots of bad decisions, you shouldn't logically be able to overcome their control, yet in that case, destroy is the ONLY option. Why is doing the bare minimum rewarded with beating the Reapers? It's not, because the theory isn't supported by the design.

Modifié par Darth Wolfenbarg, 02 avril 2012 - 08:56 .

[VampireSoap]

SLana wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
Yeah, I was already halfway to the starship that headed to Vulcan. Then it just suddenly occurred to me that the indoctrination theory isn't exactly a religion. Please don't laugh, that was a tough one.

So, can I have your ticket if the ship is still there?  I would gladly discuss what I call "Green Space Magic" with you but this is the wrong topic, so I'll just wish you a nice day

Sorry, the ship's already gone, but don't worry, another one will come in about 100 years. And "Green Space Magic"? Just can't wait:lol: You are not going to tell me humans and turians can finally interbreed, are you?

[kamikazekeeg]

pixelface wrote...

kamikazekeeg wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

What? No, no. I really don't get it. Tell me if I'm wrong because I'm really not sure. According to the IT, don't the Reapers destory everything and all that you hold dear is gone? What is the point of Shepard winning the fight in his head? I don't understand why that's a fantastic ending. But you must have your reasons, no?

I don't believe it means that at all.  What I get from it, is that the ending still hasn't finished and there is more to accomplish. If the IT happens and Shepard wins the fight for his mind, he can still work to finish off the Reapers. A fantastic ending to me, just means some proper closure, even if it might not be a happy ending or anything like that.  Even a depressing ending can be good if it makes sense.

precisely, it just didn't make any sense and that's really what broke the ending, but if indoctrination is real than it would explain a lot, which is why the fans really like this idea. for example, have you seen the movie "repo man".

I haven't, but I watched a review of it that has me understanding where your going with this about false endings.

I'm not someone that angrily hates the ending as is, I just want plot holes and lack of closure fixed. IT is one way this is fixed, so if they just fix what is already there, I'll take it, but IT is just something that appeals to alot of people simply because of what it COULD lead to.  I have a feeling too many people might believe IT too much, so if it doesn't happen, things are only going to get worse for them.  Setting themselves up for failure basically.  Keeping an open mind is the best way to go about it I think.

[kalle90]

VampireSoap wrote...
If I'm going to give evidence, I'll go inview the Bioware officials, cite reliable sources that Bioware confirms.

Well, that is like god going "There is evidence about me, but I won't allow it"

Bioware is keeping quiet and holding back everything. Not just their work on ending, but also the EMS, face imports and everything. Fortunately in a few days we know more.

Problem is, even if they end up stating the current ending is an indoctrination sequence and slap the real ending after it, how do we know if it was their original intention?

[SLana]

VampireSoap wrote...
Sorry, the ship's already gone, but don't worry, another one will come in about 100 years. And "Green Space Magic"? Just can't wait:lol: You are not going to tell me humans and turians can finally interbreed, are you?

Nope. So, can I assume that the only thing you believe in (related to ME3 endings) is just bad writing and it is so bad that even fans can do a lot better? 

[Darth Wolfenbarg]

kalle90 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
If I'm going to give evidence, I'll go inview the Bioware officials, cite reliable sources that Bioware confirms.

Well, that is like god going "There is evidence about me, but I won't allow it"

Bioware is keeping quiet and holding back everything. Not just their work on ending, but also the EMS, face imports and everything. Fortunately in a few days we know more.

Problem is, even if they end up stating the current ending is an indoctrination sequence and slap the real ending after it, how do we know if it was their original intention?

Unless it's coming apart at the seams and has assets created in Microsoft Paint, an ending would take more than a month to hastily slap together. A lot of their creative staff would already be tasked with other projects when the game went gold. If they do release or announce an ending DLC in a few days, there's no way it wasn't in the works.

[VampireSoap]

Yeah, guys, I also want to point out that if we choose "destory". EDI dies, and so will all the sentient Geth (commiting mass-murders?) That doesn't seem perfect to me. But hey, it is perfectly justifiable to commit genocide when you goal is to save the galaxy, right? Right? Who cares about the freshless machines anyway?

And yeah, you can also argue that choosing the destory option won't actually kill anyone, it's all just a hallucination. But Shepard thinks it's true the whole time...so in my opinion, the moral issue still exists...I don't know, what do you guys think about this?

[kalle90]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

kalle90 wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
If I'm going to give evidence, I'll go inview the Bioware officials, cite reliable sources that Bioware confirms.

Well, that is like god going "There is evidence about me, but I won't allow it"

Bioware is keeping quiet and holding back everything. Not just their work on ending, but also the EMS, face imports and everything. Fortunately in a few days we know more.

Problem is, even if they end up stating the current ending is an indoctrination sequence and slap the real ending after it, how do we know if it was their original intention?

Unless it's coming apart at the seams and has assets created in Microsoft Paint, an ending would take more than a month to hastily slap together. A lot of their creative staff would already be tasked with other projects when the game went gold. If they do release or announce an ending DLC in a few days, there's no way it wasn't in the works.

Well Bioware obviously cut a lot of the stuff originally intended to be in the game, From Ashes not being the least.

[VampireSoap]

SLana wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...
Sorry, the ship's already gone, but don't worry, another one will come in about 100 years. And "Green Space Magic"? Just can't wait:lol: You are not going to tell me humans and turians can finally interbreed, are you?

Nope. So, can I assume that the only thing you believe in (related to ME3 endings) is just bad writing and it is so bad that even fans can do a lot better? 

Bad writing caused by dangerous deadline. But I really don't think the IT is any better, wait, hold on....In fact, it may have to take some time to calculate which one is worse.

[SLana]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...
That's not relevant to what I said. Sure, destroy has a unique outcome if you have the maximum EMS. If you do everything possible, then the idea is that you beat the Reapers and didn't succumb to being their thrall. However, if you rush through the game and make lots of bad decisions, you shouldn't logically be able to overcome their control, yet in that case, destroy is the ONLY option. Why is doing the bare minimum rewarded with beating the Reapers? It's not, because the theory isn't supported by the design.

And why this "starchild" so easily points you on the "destroy" option? Why is this the only option if they are a part of crucible's design made by other organic races? You know, IT or not, imo the whole ending as it is has nothing to do with logic.

[Little Princess Peach]

VampireSoap wrote...

Wake up, people! Bad writing is just bad writing. There is no way game writers will hide the plots so sophisticated that it takes speculations in this depth to piece the story together. I kept laughing while I was watching the indoctrination theory video clip. I thought the guy was just being funny, but now so many people actually believe it. No wonder so many people right now still believe in magical beings in the sky....The pathway to truth is through reason and logic. When there is a situation presented to us, we don't make an assumption and then assume that assumption is right and make up all the details from there, we look at the data, the facts and then decide whether there is truth in this claim.

It's just my personal point of view, I'm sorry if it sounds offensive to some people. It is never my intention to provoke anyone.

you know it's a little human thing that most of us have its called hope, and have you ever considerd this, the ending was so bad because Bioware wanted us to think about it?

it makes people talk about the ending giving reasosn for there shepards future, each of our stories are  diffrent maybe they wanted us to fill in the blanks, its like reading a book and you can view the images in your mind

[VampireSoap]

kalle90 wrote...
Well, that is like god going "There is evidence about me, but I won't allow it"

This one is classic and epic:lol: If I'm some kind of deity, the only logical choice of religion for me is to be an atheist.

So I deeply believe that the creator of IT himself does not believe in IT:P (Just joking, please don't mind me)

Modifié par VampireSoap, 02 avril 2012 - 09:21 .

[VampireSoap]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

you know it's a little human thing that most of us have its called hope

That sounds most inconvenient. Have you considered having it removed?

But in all seriousness, I just don't think it is a good reason to believe in something simply because it comforts you, makes you feel good and gives you hope. Those "benefits" have nothing to do with the credibility of the thing that you believe.

[SLana]

Bad writing caused by dangerous deadline. But I really don't think the IT is any better, wait, hold on....In fact, it may have to take some time to calculate which one is worse.

I read a lot. Some books are really good, some are just trash. And the bad ones... well they usually are bad from first page to last page. There's a lot of sequels that are much worse than first books/games, but again, they are generally bad from first chapter to last one. Maybe I'm lucky but I've never read a book which I want to re-read without last chapter... That's not some sort of evidence, that's just my feelings.

Modifié par SLana, 02 avril 2012 - 09:33 .

[VampireSoap]

SLana wrote...

Bad writing caused by dangerous deadline. But I really don't think the IT is any better, wait, hold on....In fact, it may have to take some time to calculate which one is worse.

I read a lot. Some books are really good, some are just trash. And the bad ones... well they usually are bad from first page to last page. There's a lot of sequels that are much worse than first books/games, but again, they are generally bad from first chapter to last one. Maybe I'm lucky but I've never read a book which I want to re-read without last chapter... That's not some sort of evidence, that's just my feelings.

Interesting. I read a lot of books that have bad endings...It may make sense if you look at it this way. In the end, you've got to explain the origins or the intention of the Reapers, right? Give the audience a closure. But how do we wrapped up such an enormous plot???



If you are still contemplating the answer, have no worries!! Bioware presented to you --- The RBG ending!!!

Modifié par VampireSoap, 02 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[pixelface]

VampireSoap wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

you know it's a little human thing that most of us have its called hope

That sounds most inconvenient. Have you considered having it removed?

But in all seriousness, I just don't think it is a good reason to believe in something simply because it comforts you, makes you feel good and gives you hope. Those "benefits" have nothing to do with the credibility of the thing that you believe.

look, a lot people felt screwed with the ending, if it eases their pain by making up a story about how shepard was indoctrinated than there shouldn't be a problem with that, you cannot prove nor disprove this theory. 

[ZajoE38]

IDT while makes sense to some degree, is just crowd psychology. It can be VERY powerful. Bioware is silent because I think they don't know how to react on this. Their difficult-to-understand ending backfired. Or/and they just didn't expect that fans will be pampered and wanting happy end. The tragedy is very famous worldwide (Shakespeare).... Few came up with IDT and snowball effect has begun. Fans rather believed IDT because they wanted explanations. You don't need IDT to have ending explained. But they rather fool themself with dream than take the tragic ending. It's based that normal "real" plot of ME3 has "necessary plotholes". Should Reapers continue cycle as they have been doing if for last millions of years, ME3 would finish just before it started. Assuming everyone know how Reapers does their "job". Remeber - ME wasn't about Shepard with friends in Purgatory getting drunk.. ME was about menace of the Reapers and fight to preserve galaxy.

[VampireSoap]

pixelface wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

you know it's a little human thing that most of us have its called hope

That sounds most inconvenient. Have you considered having it removed?

But in all seriousness, I just don't think it is a good reason to believe in something simply because it comforts you, makes you feel good and gives you hope. Those "benefits" have nothing to do with the credibility of the thing that you believe.

look, a lot people felt screwed with the ending, if it eases their pain by making up a story about how shepard was indoctrinated than there shouldn't be a problem with that, you cannot prove nor disprove this theory. 

I'm totally not interested in what people should believe. My only interest is whether there is truth in the IT. And I am not in a position to disprove the theory because in order to do so, they'll have to first prove that the theory is correct. But as I said earlier, so far there is not a single shred of evidence that is reliable.

PS: Be very careful when you hear people say "you cannot prove or disprove" in daily life. Because there is always a burden of proof that is on the one who is making the claim. The person who is making the claim must first give reliable evidence to support his or her claim. So in actual reasonable debates, there is no such a thing as "cannot prove or disprove". I hope it helps :happy:

Modifié par VampireSoap, 02 avril 2012 - 09:53 .

[Robhuzz]

Because the IT is easier to believe than the simple fact that BioWare blatantly lied about the ending AND messed up greatly.

Not to mention the ending makes absolutely no sense when taken literally and there are many things in the game that hint at and could possibly support the IT. Vent kid being ignored by everyone but Shepard. The 'oily shadows' (talked about by the Rachni queen in ME1) in Shepard's last dream, Shepard shooting Anderson for no reason only to suffer the wound himself. Your squadmembers being aboard the normandy, surviving an FTL speed crash on a planet with no engines (also, said engines blowing up for no reason). Shepard somehow surviving the red ending and ending up back on earth... the list goes on.

And finally: BioWare hinted at post campaign dlc a long time ago. Tweets like 'if the fans knew what was coming, the reaction to the ending would be different' and 'keep your savegames' all hint at something having been planned behind the scenes.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 02 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[Amilius]

because it makes sense

[SLana]

ZajoE38 wrote...

IDT while makes sense to some degree, is just crowd psychology. It can be VERY powerful. Bioware is silent because I think they don't know how to react on this. Their difficult-to-understand ending backfired. Or/and they just didn't expect that fans will be pampered and wanting happy end. The tragedy is very famous worldwide (Shakespeare).... Few came up with IDT and snowball effect has begun. Fans rather believed IDT because they wanted explanations. You don't need IDT to have ending explained. But they rather fool themself with dream than take the tragic ending. It's based that normal "real" plot of ME3 has "necessary plotholes". Should Reapers continue cycle as they have been doing if for last millions of years, ME3 would finish just before it started. Assuming everyone know how Reapers does their "job". Remeber - ME wasn't about Shepard with friends in Purgatory getting drunk.. ME was about menace of the Reapers and fight to preserve galaxy.

Maybe I misunderstood you but for example, I was very upset by those endings before I knew there's someone else like me. Before I came here I actually thought I'm the only one so "picky". Now I'm just gald that I'm not. I've read a lot of books with tragic ending, but I don't want to complain about those endings even if I really love the main hero and want him/her to be happy, because everything in those endings fit the described world. And how does this space magic fit ME universe? I don't see good enough answer to accept those endings as they are.

Modifié par SLana, 02 avril 2012 - 10:02 .