508 réponses à ce sujet

[jojon2se]

VampireSoap wrote...
...
To reiterate, Game writers don't hide the plots so sophisticated that it takes speculations in this depth to piece the story together.
...

If they dont; Maybe they should.

[spacehamsterZH]

Eli Parker wrote...

Have you seen the video?

I have. It's really well done, and I enjoyed watching it. I don't think any of it was intentional, though.

[AlphaDormante]

VampireSoap wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

If I was an emotionless shell then I'd agree but nobody is. We're human - I think a lot more harm would be done out of knowing the cold hard truth. Because then...what is there if there isn't any degree of hope? Would you say the samething to a starving mother and her three kids that there wasn't any hope for a better future in a dystopian nation (assuming you cannot interfere in anyway)? 

Truth is: we cannot possibly know everything and so we have theories and emotional constructs. It's how art and music and all the beautiful things man has created gets form. 

I understand your position, but I do not agree with you on emotions making us Humans. I believe that being logical has always been the symbol of being a Human. Passion corrupts reason. The bigger picture eludes us when we let our internal desires take control. The control of emotions, so that they do not control us.

With respect, I disagree. Logic is indeed a symbol of humanity, but too much and it becomes robotic. In someone who has pushed away emotions in favor of reason, there would be no drive, no purpose, just pointless calculus. Great minds of our time were driven not only by their intelligence, but by their passion for expanding this knowledge. Even to use an in-game universe, geth were not considered sentient until they experienced a desire for something.

To be human, one requires logic and passion. One cannot be forsaken in favor of the other.

[Pockydon]

You're talking about people having logical thinking, yet you're denying a theory that has so much evidence that it would be illogical to not believe it! If you think there isn't enough evidence than you clearly don't know much about mass effect's lore.

[kalle90]

VampireSoap wrote...
When there is a situation presented to us, we don't make an assumption and then assume that assumption is right and make up all the details from there, we look at the data, the facts and then decide whether there is truth in this claim.

I feel that is what happened. People get the feeling that something is missing from the ending, they start to look at the data:
- Pistol with infinite ammo
- No one sees Shepard or Anderson
- Bushes from dreams in the real world
- Codex info
etc etc etc.

Only then people start to make assumptions, which lead into people thinking indoc theory is plausible.

[ThomasakaDes_]

Sgt Reed 24 wrote...

B/c ... unlike the ending...

it makes sense. lol

If Bioware was smart, they'd take the Indoctrination Theory and run with it in the DLC they are supposed to be making. 

It`s probably what they`ve been planing to do all along
 
At the end of this vid he shows Tweets from people who work at Bioware.

[durasteel]

BioWare has never before produced a scene of this importance that was so poorly written. Never.

Some people find it easier to believe in an elaborate hoax than to accept that their trust in BioWare was breached. If we cannot believe in BioWare's storytelling, then what can we count on? It is difficult to lose faith.

[Il Divo]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Eli Parker wrote...

Have you seen the video?

I have. It's really well done, and I enjoyed watching it. I don't think any of it was intentional, though.

That's my perspective as well.

[RyuujinZERO]

Pockydon wrote...

You're talking about people having logical thinking, yet you're denying a theory that has so much evidence that it would be illogical to not believe it! If you think there isn't enough evidence than you clearly don't know much about mass effect's lore.

Actually, you're the one being illogical - The simplest explanation is usually the more accurate one




Option A:
Bioware wrote an ending that has subtle clues of indoctrination but are so subtle that even viewed with a magnifying glass some doubts remain - ie. the entire Normandy scene is nonsense no matter how you interpret it. And openly denies that this is the intended ending when questioned about it, because denying it makes it more arty and controvertial


Option B:
Bioware flubbed the ending



When i finished Mass Effect, before I even came on the forum i had the indoctrination "vibe" that something felt wrong. I saw other people posting their evidence and I did a replay myself, this time keeping my eyes open and noting ALL the evidence; and here is where my opinion splits.

There is a lot of evidence FOR, but there is also a lot of evidence to suggest this is just incidental - remember the scientific process is not about drawing a hypothesis and then cherry picking data to support your hypothesis, ALL the data must be relevant. For me, there is too much data that does not fit the hypothesis. I'm seeing a lot of bad science and poor logic going on the IT discussions; people have already drawn their conclusion and now they're trying to back up their theory with facts that support it yet dismissing the facts that run counter to it.

There is a lot that does, but there is a lot that doesn't. if the indoctrination theory IS true, it's a lot smaller scope, probably starting from the point Shepard passes out on the Citadel. 

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 01 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[VampireSoap]

AlphaDormante wrote...

With respect, I disagree. Logic is indeed a symbol of humanity, but too much and it becomes robotic. In someone who has pushed away emotions in favor of reason, there would be no drive, no purpose, just pointless calculus. Great minds of our time were driven not only by their intelligence, but by their passion for expanding this knowledge. Even to use an in-game universe, geth were not considered sentient until they experienced a desire for something.

To be human, one requires logic and passion. One cannot be forsaken in favor of the other.

I really appreciate that you are giving such a thoughful reply. Thank you:happy: And I was just saying emotions should be under control at all times. I did not say that emotions should be eliminated. Emotions can be powerful tools, but they should be disciplined by rational thinking. That's why the majority of all scientists don't believe in magical beings in the sky, and that's why gamers should not believe in speculations so easily.

[Eli Parker]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Eli Parker wrote...

Have you seen the video?

I have. It's really well done, and I enjoyed watching it. I don't think any of it was intentional, though.

I understand your view point. To me looking at the game and seeing all those issues/plot holes there was effort put into it. Bioware had to develope all of those little things and had to plan that out ahead of time so I thing Bioware does have something planned out. Still I'm not letting them off the hook if the Indoc theory is true, because they had enough of time to finish the ending and put it on disk. 

Also what was odd for me in the beginning, I was replaying the start, and I saw the Kid run into the building where he is hiding in the vent and Anderson says nothing.

[nukular power]

Oh dear.. it's another self-righteous, patronizing atheist telling everyone how they should be thinking!

Really, you guys are getting worse than the religious nuts...

Are you implying that a magical "star child" magically giving you a space magic hippy ending is a better, more scientific option?

Modifié par nukular power, 01 avril 2012 - 05:32 .

[spacehamsterZH]

Pockydon wrote...

You're talking about people having logical thinking, yet you're denying a theory that has so much evidence that it would be illogical to not believe it! If you think there isn't enough evidence than you clearly don't know much about mass effect's lore.

The problem with it is that all of the evidence can just as easily be explained with lazy writing, plot holes and visual assets being re-used because they had to rush it. And unfortunately, that's the far more likely explanation.

[nukular power]

VampireSoap wrote...
 That's why the majority of all scientists don't believe in magical beings in the sky, and that's why gamers should not believe in speculations so easily.

This made me lol.  I can see the thought behind it: "the MAJORITY of scientists etc etc....  btw, did I mention I'm a science student? coughcoughlookhowsmartzIam.   Let's see how many more times I can say magic while ignoring the "space magic" in the "real" ending!"

Modifié par nukular power, 01 avril 2012 - 05:30 .

[RyuujinZERO]

nukular power wrote...

Oh dear.. it's another self-righteous, patronizing atheist telling everyone how they should be thinking!

Really, you guys are getting worse than the religious nuts...

Are you implying that a magical "star child" magically giving you a space magic hippy ending is a better option?

You might want to cross reference whether the "non believers" actually LIKE the ending first. I don't believe in the "indoctrination theory" either, that doesn't mean i approve of the ending, but my approval is irrelevant, bad writing is bad writing no matter what i want to believe.

incidentlly I'm an atheist too... does this mean "religious" is synonymous with "gullible"? 

[Abispa]

Unless this "indoctrination theory" had been planned all along and Bioware has proof that it has always been in the works, Bioware will NEVER use it because so many have written about it on the BSN. Bioware using a fan's idea as their own opens them up to all sorts of legal problems, which can only grow more complicated since it can't be proved who came up with it in the first place and would be owed the royalties.

[nukular power]

RyuujinZERO wrote...
incidentlly I'm an atheist too... does this mean "religious" is synonymous with "gullible"? 

I guess we'll find out on April 6th.  It might just be the reverse

[Savber100]

I watched the indoctrination theory video for the first time. (Being unable to do so due to internet complications on Youtube)

And honestly, I can't see why NOT even if Bioware didn't plan it. The indoctrination theory makes sense. Any counter-arguments are easily refuted when one actually examines the endings rather than just tossing out questions and claiming they destroy the theory etc.

[VampireSoap]

nukular power wrote...

Oh dear.. it's another self-righteous, patronizing atheist telling everyone how they should be thinking!

Really, you guys are getting worse than the religious nuts...

Are you implying that a magical "star child" magically giving you a space magic hippy ending is a better, more scientific option?

Based on what facts that you make the conclusion that I am an atheist and I think that the ending is better?

[RyuujinZERO]

nukular power wrote...

I guess we'll find out on April 6th.  It might just be the reverse

Maybe - Though at this stage we may never know, if Bioware was to now come out and say "IT is true", we'd forever have that niggling question in the back of our minds "Was it really true all along... or did they jump on the bandwagon to rescue this mess?"

[AlphaDormante]

VampireSoap wrote...

AlphaDormante wrote...

With respect, I disagree. Logic is indeed a symbol of humanity, but too much and it becomes robotic. In someone who has pushed away emotions in favor of reason, there would be no drive, no purpose, just pointless calculus. Great minds of our time were driven not only by their intelligence, but by their passion for expanding this knowledge. Even to use an in-game universe, geth were not considered sentient until they experienced a desire for something.

To be human, one requires logic and passion. One cannot be forsaken in favor of the other.

I really appreciate that you are giving such a thoughful reply. Thank you:happy: And I was just saying emotions should be under control at all times. I did not say that emotions should be eliminated. Emotions can be powerful tools, but they should be disciplined by rational thinking. That's why the majority of all scientists don't believe in magical beings in the sky, and that's why gamers should not believe in speculations so easily.

I see; I misunderstood your initial post, then. I agree, a balance should be maintained between emotions and logic at all times - I merely wanted to combat the opinion that logic was more important to the definition of a person than emotion was. If that wasn't your intent, I apologize for misreading

I don't believe the Indoctrination Theory is intended as true, but I choose to apply it myself because it fixes a lot of what I find wrong with the endings. I still hope BioWare will give us something substantial soon, though =\\

[TaHol]

I was going to represent Occam's Razor here, but as it is already done, I just suggest people should examine this "theory" with it.

[xlightscreen]

Ow I can think of several counter arguments to the theory. I personally believe the ending is exactly what it looks like. However the Indoctrination theory even if its not the original intent of the idea would be a amazing thing to just pretend they planned it all along and go with it.

[AlphaDormante]

nukular power wrote...

Oh dear.. it's another self-righteous, patronizing atheist telling everyone how they should be thinking!

Really, you guys are getting worse than the religious nuts...

Are you implying that a magical "star child" magically giving you a space magic hippy ending is a better, more scientific option?

Could we please not drag religion into this? The thread will degenerate in about 20 minutes.