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Let's stop mocking those who spend money on equipment packs.


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#101
niko20

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

RunaKun wrote...

Love it or hate it, it is a person's choice.

It's just a waste of breath to insult someone for what they choose to do.


Actually, the game design structure being used here is designed to cause *operant conditioning* and actually addict people via abuse of the psychology surrounding reward schedules.  One could say that your argument is like wasting your breath for being concerned about an alcoholic's self-destructive habits.  Also, like with alcoholism, the bad habit of the addicts is directly harmful to the interests of others... for example, the more the suckers buy into skinner box game design, the more it will replace better (but harder to do) avenues of game design.  This trend has already begun and has been going on (with gradually increasing severity) for many years.  If gamers (and game designers!  Many of them that I know oppose skinner box game design) don't push back, it will only get worse.


Well I don't think "not buying" from ME3 is going to reverse the trend on its own. I think even though a lot of people don't like it, it's a model that is here to stay.

Also, I've seen documentaries about WOW being addictive and people playing 18 hours straight so they could keep leveling up - how is that any different ? How is there any difference between paying for virtual goods or spending your whole waking life trying to level up instead? These people weren't paying for level up's in WOW, they were playing and playing and playing.

For someone that is going to become addicted it will happen either way. You can't just say the pay model is the bad culprit. Addiction can happen with our without a pay model.

Modifié par niko20, 02 avril 2012 - 03:00 .


#102
Kuraiken

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Arkley wrote...

You somehow refuse to realize a few things:
It's not about financing. Free-to-Play servers need financing, because they have costs for the servers they provide. ME3 doesn't host the games, that's why players are hosts. Thus, there is no real need for any financing. And it's not even about getting in the costs to begin with, it's about making a profit. Making money. Relying on the lazyness of players as the sole source of income *is* not a clever business plan, and it's not what EA pursued in the past. There is no reason for a player who enjoys ME3 Multiplayers to be unwilling to pay 5 euro for 3 new maps and one new game mode. It's very likely that players (especially RPG players, who tend to be completionists) will pay for it, just as they do in any other game.

You ramble about micro transactions, but these micro transactions are added, not integrated into the system. They are an additional source to profit aside of the money they get from retail that is supposed to allow another margin income, just as in Facebook games from EA/Bioware, you can waste hundreds of euro for useless stuff and actually need to pay some 15 euro for a simple item for a facebook game. And still it persists. Why? Because there are many people who buy it.

What you skirt around is that there is no sensible reason not to use the dlc venue as another source of income. Those item micro-transactions are not a reliable or major income, and not neccessary to begin with. There is no reason not to get another 5-10 euro for a multiplayer DLC.

Instead you run around with general statements, and entirely ignore that most micro-transaction MMORPGs often fail or only occupy a small margin compare to those that require an suscription, barely manging to stay above water. You ignore that more and more companies utilize mixed models, to cater to multiple audiences, that games such as WoW contain money sinks and multiple extra-microtransactions too, that we're talking about products that are entirely different in their structure, infrastructure, support and management. You basically cling to one thing: There are games that provide micro-transactions only and some of them are still alive, without charging for addons. But you don't mention that these games often provide an incredible variety in the micro-transactions possible, or - once in a while - produce an "optional" addon that *does* cost money.

And what you seem unable to understand is that when a company such as EA is asked the question:
Would you like to continue to hope and believe that enough lazy people buy some Bioware points, or would you try to actively milk more money, prove that you're a good business man and save the day?
The answer is obvious. In fact, even if you *were* right, even if paid-DLC were the worst thing they could do, and no one would buy them, they would *still* try them, because passivly and inactivly disregarding the possibility to improve the income is *not* and will *never* be an option for such a company. It is ridiculous to consider something else.

EDIT: Oh, and what you also can't wrap your head around is target audiences. What do you think who pays for item packs and so on? Do you think someone who wastes 30-40 euros on item packs will be unwilling to dish out another 5 for a bunch of maps, characters and game modes? Yes, some people might not buy the dlcs and quit. But those are not people who are already heavily invested in the game. The people who leave are those who never paid a euro through microtransactions and never will. Thus, their is no loss incurred. While the people who *do* allow EA to gain more money through microtransactions will not shirk away from a dlc that costs as much as a hand ful of item packs. Of course they stay after all they already paid, and pay that small sum too.

So both, from the way a company naturally acts, and the logic of maximizing profit, there is no reason why they should provide constant free multiplayer dlc, because they can keep the players entertained and freshen up the experience while earning even more.

EDIT2: Oh, and those microtransactions are a "drying well". Eventually players who pay for them will have all the items they want, and need no further consumables, as they naturally with ingame currency will remain well supplied. You can add additional items and new packs, modificators, etc. to provide a reason for them to spend some more, but eventually, you won't be able to add a 20th sniper rifle any more. There is a limit, and when it's reached, micro-transactions would cease. You think EA will soley rely on a drying well system?

Modifié par Kuraiken, 02 avril 2012 - 03:39 .


#103
GodlessPaladin

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niko20 wrote...
Well I don't think "not buying" from ME3 is going to reverse the trend on its own.

And an individual voting won't get you the best candidate on its own. 

The problem with your line of reasoning is that you can make that argument for every issue which is bigger than just one man (e.g. most issues that really matter).

Also, I've seen documentaries about WOW being addictive and people playing 18 hours straight so they could keep leveling up - how is that any different ?

  What are you talking about?  WoW is one of the most successful examples of skinner box game design out there, and it DOES gather LOTS of money through exploitation of Skinner's theories (though, thankfully, they are not one of the more unethical examples of said exploitation, and have lots of other kinds of good game design alongside it).  I'm getting the feeling that you don't know what I'm talking about when I mention the concept of skinner box game design and did not read the links I gave which would explain it to you.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 avril 2012 - 03:10 .


#104
jerrinehart

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I like the idea of buying packs, it's fun I like opening them. I don't have the money to spend on them, but if I made really good money i would probably buy some. Personally, it's nice to see change in multiplayer. All of them are so similar these days its like playing the same game with different skins. I like the RNG, hell I don't have half of what I want but that's the fun in it'!

#105
Hyunsai

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Spending money on RANDOM unlocks ?

Sorry, but LOL.

#106
Devowra

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its not about supporting micro-transaction models, its about supporting this micro-transaction model.

the multiplayer experience for many is reduced by the fact we cannot spend our credits on specific unlocks.

so we cannot play the class\\race combination we want, or do as well because we have been unlucky in our weapon unlocks, or even reset our class after a undesirable build choice until we suffer to max level with it.

while ultimately we blame EA for this, the consumers of this model have our pity for making it more effective than a specific unlock model

#107
Aiyie

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vivanto wrote...

Let's look at the flipside. The less money spent on this garbage, the sooner they realize that the unlock system is retarded and do something about it. See what I did there?


its a smart move.

if we could pick and choose what we bought people would lose interest quicker than they could release dlc.  they'd get bored because they would have no goal to work towards.

#108
Maria Caliban

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I've never been mocked for buying equipment packs. I'm not sure this is a significant problem.

Playing a Vanguard will get you more mockery than spending money.

#109
frylock23

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Arkley wrote...

devNull299 wrote...

The more money spent on unlocking equipment, the more it convinces the powers that be that game longevity is best extended by free additional mp content supported by optional unlock expenses rather than pay mp dlc.


Precisely. It is a superior system - it results in everyone getting expansions and new content for free, with the option to spend money for the sake convenience, and the playerbase is never divided. We don't all have to support it, but we shouldn't be mocking those who do.


The ones I will happily mock are the ones who complain that the game is getting boring so that people who spend money need to have improved chances of getting the better stuff or just that if they spent real money they should have improved chances of getting better stuff.

Those people I will happily mock.

1.) If the game is boring, why would you spend money on it? Unlocking a new gun won't keep it from being boring.

2.) If you think that you should have better stuff if you spend money, then you want pay to win, and a lot of folks aren't going to pay to win.

#110
Verhalthur

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If you consider the game as the sum of it's features, how is this extra feature a bad thing?

It helps you out if you want to use it, and if you don't you can still get the content.

No content is being excluded here, but it is being made available for those who want to get it faster.  In a PvP game, this would put some people at a disadvantage, but this is not a PvP game.
If other players buy these packs then they are spending their own money to be more able to help you.

All of that behavioral psychology is not really important when considering the actual benefits and negatives of this system, and there are no negatives.

Modifié par Verhalthur, 02 avril 2012 - 04:36 .


#111
GodlessPaladin

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Verhalthur wrote... All of that
behavioral psychology is not really important when considering the
actual benefits and negatives of this system, and there are no negatives.


Of course there are negatives to locking features behind random unlock reward schedules.  Heck, there's pros and cons to having a player community shaped by the concept that players can EITHER earn a reward OR purchase it.  To pretend that no negatives exist is just naive.

It's not just an extra feature that has no effect on anything else.  Can you really not see how game features interact with each other in crafting the aesthetic experience that is gameplay?

Verhalthur wrote...
All of that behavioral psychology is not
really important when considering the actual benefits and negatives of
this system


It is BECAUSE of the actual positives and negatives projected by that behavioral psychology that the designers implemented this system.   They did not pull it out of a magical hat with no basis.

Video games are not conjured out of thin air and magically fun.  A big part of being a game designer is understanding player psychology and using that understanding to build a compelling aesthetic experience.  If you don't think player psychology has anything to do with the pros and cons of various potential gameplay implementations, pray tell what does, given that the concept of "fun" is entirely a matter of psychology?

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 avril 2012 - 07:55 .


#112
ttchip

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Do I openly mock people spending their money on MP packs? Nope.

Do I chuckle whenever I see a thread of someone having spent real money on them and got **** out of the packs? Hell, yeah.

#113
Zubi Fett

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

Verhalthur wrote... All of that behavioral psychology is not really important when considering the actual benefits and negatives of this system, and there are no negatives.

Is this guy joking?  Can anyone really be that naive?

Of course there are negatives to locking features behind random unlock reward schedules.  Heck, there's pros and cons to having a player community where players can EITHER earn a reward OR purchase it.  To pretend that no negatives exist is just willfully ignorant.

Verhalthur wrote... If you consider the game as the sum of it's
features, how is this extra feature a bad thing?

 
What extra feature?  Locking features that you would otherwise *just start with* behind a random unlock reward schedule in order to drive compulsive behavior (rather than relying on how fun it is to actually repeatedly play the multiplayer maps)?  Or the fact that you can buy packs instead of earning them?

Either way, it's not just an extra feature that has no effect on anything else.  Can you really not see how game features interact with each other in crafting the aesthetic experience that is gameplay?

Verhalthur wrote...
All of that behavioral psychology is not
really important when considering the actual benefits and negatives of
this system


It is BECAUSE of the actual positives and negatives projected by that behavioral psychology that the designers implemented this system.   They did not pull it out of a magical hat with no basis.

Video games are not conjured out of thin air and magically fun.  A big part of being a game designer is understanding player psychology and using that understanding to build a compelling experience.  If you don't think player psychology has anything to do with the pros and cons of various potential gameplay implementations, pray tell what is, given that the concept of "fun" is entirely a matter of psychology?


Gave up man, no matter how much FACTS you put in or how good you explain, they keep ignoring them and keep acting like they "right".

They being completely extremist about it.

Also, the unlock system is like a slot machine, and they still dont get the "adictive" part of it.

Modifié par Zubi Fett, 02 avril 2012 - 07:52 .


#114
bchesson

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Like it or not the "pay system" is here to stay in online gaming. MMO's are thriving off it and now it's trickling down to regular gaming. If someone spends a few bucks on packs more power to them. If you dislike it keep earning your creds and more power to you as well. It's not like we're playing a pvp game where it's giving someone a huge advantage. I don't think it's any more absurd than buying an app for your phone or tablet. If you're happy with your purchase knock yourself out....you're not hurting me by buying that spectre pack.

#115
CV77

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fafnir magnus wrote...

spectre pack is what, 160 MS points? I've bought a few. Drop a spare 20$ on 1600 MS points, get 10 packs, that is equivalent of ~ 8 or 9 gold games...


I get that, shopping with BW points can be a huge timesaver but for me personally, 20 bucks for 10 spectre packs is way too much.

But it'd be actually quite acceptable with a guarantee your yellow rares will not include character or respec cards in a spectre pack if you buy with Bioware points. Just weapons or capacity upgrades (being able to carry more cobras and medigels in gold is...golden).

Modifié par CV77, 02 avril 2012 - 08:06 .


#116
GodlessPaladin

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bchesson wrote...   you're not hurting me by buying that spectre pack.

Actually, the people who buy those spectre packs and similar products are doing something to you.

bchesson wrote...  Like it or not the "pay system" is here to stay in online gaming.


They're doing this.  And it's only going to get worse.  As monetary exploitation of operant conditioning gets more and more common, more and more areas become "grey" rather than "black and white" in the public eye because they're just one more step from the status quo... and then greed leads to the green-lightning of routes in moral grey areas.  This has (and will continue to) change gaming as a hobby in a way that many would argue is harmful:  skinner box mechanics are increasingly used *instead* of other, better, but harder to execute forms of engaging players (because making content is hard, and making super rare random loot drop systems that addict people the same way casinos do is easy).

It also affects game developers themselves, and what projects get funded by publishers and which ones DON'T.  Publishers want designers to sacrifice fun for operant conditioning *because people buy into it,* and that hurts you as a gamer as well as game designers who don't want to lock the features of their games behind a paywall or time sink grind to artificially inflate the amount of time players spend on their game far past the point that content has run out.

Every time someone buys a spectre pack or some similar action, they are voting with their wallet for what they want to see more of (and, because of the way competition works, that they want to see less of EVERYTHING ELSE).

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 02 avril 2012 - 08:12 .


#117
Zubi Fett

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GodlessPaladin wrote...

bchesson wrote...   you're not hurting me by buying that spectre pack.

Actually, the people who buy those spectre packs and similar products are doing something to you.

bchesson wrote...  Like it or not the "pay system" is here to stay in online gaming.


They're doing this.  And it's only going to get worse.  As monetary exploitation of operant conditioning gets more and more common, more and more areas become "grey" rather than "black and white" in the public eye because they're just one more step from the status quo... and then greed leads to the green-lightning of routes in moral grey areas.  This has (and will continue to) change gaming as a hobby in a way that many would argue is harmful:  skinner box mechanics are increasingly used *instead* of other, better, but harder to execute forms of engaging players (because making content is hard, and making super rare random loot drop systems that addict people the same way casinos do is easy).

It also affects game developers themselves, and what projects get funded by publishers and which ones DON'T.  Publishers want designers to sacrifice fun for operant conditioning *because people buy into it,* and that hurts you as a gamer just as much as it hurts me as a game designer who doesn't want to lock the features of his game behind a paywall / time sink grind.



I dont wanna "worder" you too much with it but. We already been few so far that try to convence them with facts and say the same thing many times, still they wont lisen.

They keep doing it till we have to pay for every "virtual" bulllet we fired on the internet. When that moment arrives i have VERY clear what the solution is.

Modifié par Zubi Fett, 02 avril 2012 - 08:19 .


#118
TLK Spires

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nope, sorry, anyone who spends actual money on things they can get just by playing is both lazy and stupid, and has completely missed the point of video games.

#119
palker

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I am a long time Team Fortress 2 player and anyone who knows about it and its ingame store and trading crafting and whatever can see that you can sustain near constant stream of updates patches new items maps and game modes while being F2P and also profit from it. There are also crates that cost 2.5 $ to unlock that have a really small chance of providing you with unique item and yet people still buy them and those items do not even provide any gameplay advantages they are purely cosmetic and in TF2 you cannot even see them most of the time since it is FPS and yet lots of people still buy them.

#120
Lurkily

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The value of the packs is . . . meh. But I'll never mock somebody for paying for convenience.

Why? For the same reason I don't pick up pennies. When someone asks me if I won't pick it up, I tell them "I'll pay you one cent to pick that up for me." Around 60 percent of the time, they don't pick it up.

Paying for convenience. It isn't retarded. Just that money is worth more to some people than to others.

As an addendum . . . if it encourages more companies (and more games from Bioware) to use a model in which MP DLC can be optionally purchased for game resources instead of money, I'm all for it.  Spend away, moneybags!

Modifié par Lurkily, 02 avril 2012 - 01:01 .


#121
Kuraiken

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Verhalthur wrote...
If you consider the game as the sum of it's features, how is this extra feature a bad thing?

It helps you out if you want to use it, and if you don't you can still get the content.

No content is being excluded here, but it is being made available for those who want to get it faster. In a PvP game, this would put some people at a disadvantage, but this is not a PvP game.
If other players buy these packs then they are spending their own money to be more able to help you.

All of that behavioral psychology is not really important when considering the actual benefits and negatives of this system, and there are no negatives.

bchesson wrote...

Like it or not the "pay system" is here to stay in online gaming. MMO's are thriving off it and now it's trickling down to regular gaming. If someone spends a few bucks on packs more power to them. If you dislike it keep earning your creds and more power to you as well. It's not like we're playing a pvp game where it's giving someone a huge advantage. I don't think it's any more absurd than buying an app for your phone or tablet. If you're happy with your purchase knock yourself out....you're not hurting me by buying that spectre pack.

I'll adress both of you at the same time, I hope you'll forgive me my lazyness.

The problem is that you take a very shortsighted perspective, the perspective of a consumer and player.
You live in the here and now, and do not look for what develops beyond the mountains. And when the problems eventually arrive for you too, you're displeased and say: "Why do they do this? That's unfair. I never saw *this* coming." But development of games is not stagnent and - at least as far as the publisher is concerned - financial success is more important than quality, fairness or morals.

How is this important in this case (and many similar ones)?
Well, if you support the system, you create a precendent and something the publishers can rely on. While we're speaking here, there are graphs and charts in their offices that record purchases, show how much people on average spend, on what they spend it, etc. And with this data, they will attempt to increase profit.

Making profit nowadays is not about what's "right", but what can you get away with?

An example:
Let's assume you and me, we want to open up a cola stand.
So we get ourselves the table and things we need, and then we start to produce our very own coca cola and sell it in glasses filled to the top, with one cube of ice and a slice of lemon.
We make a bit of profit, but not really much, because all the ingrediants are expensive.

So one day we get this brilliant idea: What if we don't make Cola ourselves, but buy cheap Cola from the supermarket and use that instead?
So we do that, and suddenly we find we make more money, because we get away with Cola that tastes less then supreme.
Then we realize that instead of buying finished Cola, we can buy cola concentrate that combined with water, will result in something that tastes like Coca Cola. And suddenly our sales skyrocket, because we reduce our costs so much.
Then we might reduce the amount of concentrate in the Cola, and reduce the lemon slices to half a lemon slice - and suddenly our lemon expenses are cut in half, and we need 10% less concentrate then before. Wow! And people still buy it. So we reduce the lemon slices to a quarter of a slice, and again, profit! And then we add more and more ice cubes, because it's just water, and make the glass look more full than it actually is. (McDonalds and Burger King already do that, no matter if its hot or cold. Let the ice melt and see what the cola tastes like)

Then we realize that people are more thirsty on hot days, and we can raise our prices. And we can take different glasses, that look similar, but hold less cola. Again, profit!

Being a successful businessman is all about optimizing profit, and trying what you can get away with. And the thing is, people adapt, even to things they shouldn't, and then will consider it normal. Half a decade ago, DLCs would have been (and were) heavily critized, and an insult to players. Now they're accepted and everyone does them.
The issue itself never changed, but players got used to it and said: well, that's how it is.
And then people start to rationalize it, justify it, because there is hardly anything they can do on their own.

As a result, companies will again and again test the waters with models such as these.
Go to facebook, Dragon Age Legends, and check the shop. You pay for good items (which are just a data code and a picture) 600 crowns. If you want to buy them, you pay 19,90 euro for 900 crowns. The "best value" package offers 6000 crowns (10 items) for 99,90 euro, and this is nothing but a browser game! Why? Because some people buy it, and they make money almost out of thin air. The prices weren't reduced, or changed, because people throw money into these money sinks.

And the more people are willing to do that, the more inherently free game functions will receive extra costs and will be claimed to be "an extra". You may think: yeah, but what's that to do with ME3 and buying packages for money that can also be gotten via ingame credits?
The answer is that there is nothing wrong with it - but it shows your *willingsness* to pay additional money. And if there are enough people who do that, well, they might make new weapons and offer them as extra pay content. And eventually they'll realize that you can only integrate so many weapons into the game, so it may be clever to reduce the amount of weapons and then sell them later as "new" extra content, while in truth, they were withheld on purpose to optimize profit.
Did you notice that not every single player weapon has found it's way into the multiplayer? Well, that's an opportunity.

The problem is that the trend of acceptance of such functions *will* step by step change the gaming system, until games consist of main retail transactions and countless money-sink-micro-transactions, where games will primarily be designed to offer as much potential as possible to addict and swallow money, instead of providing a valuable gaming experience. And that is the problem. One day all the things you took for granted as part of buying the game, will be reduced to "optional" pay content that players who wish "more diversity" can get by paying a small price. And that will eventually entirely corrupt the gaming experience and ensure that one day, people have no idea that there used to be games you play from start to finish for only the retail price. One day people will have forgotten that something you buy is something you own, and games bought are just a "license to use them for a unspecified time". That is what's disturbing, and the ignorance of all the people who play their part to make this come true step by step, but ignore it entirely. They say "No way, this is just a small step. No way it leads there! That's bull****". But those steps belong to a staircase, and I doubt it leads up...

Modifié par Kuraiken, 02 avril 2012 - 04:09 .


#122
Zubi Fett

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@Kuraiken

BRAVO!!! amazing post, could not be explain better. If they don't get it now theres nothing we can do. Unfortunately this is happening in other places, look Gears of War 3 with the weapon skins.

The day the games degree to what we fear i know what to do. There are other ways to "play" a game, i have that very clear.

Thanks for the post, hopefully people will a temp to some reason and get out of the world of happiness call ignorance.

Modifié par Zubi Fett, 02 avril 2012 - 08:04 .


#123
niko20

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No i disagree. Its supply and demand. If people are still buying there is still demand. If they tried to phsh too far eventually the market will drop out from under them. Yes they are trying different models to make money thats what companies do. But nobody is currently forcing anyone to buy this stuff in MP. Even if they were and people were willing to pay for it then its just demand.

If people get fed up and stop buying that means demand has dropped so they cant push the model further.

What u are seeing here is what was once a hidden revenue stream that can now be tapped into. It was there all along. If it was not then people would not be spending enough money to make it sorth the companies time.

Its basic capitalism. You dont like it dont buy it. But dont think there is some moral reasoning behind it. If the demand did not exist than the product offered would go away simple as that.

#124
Korahn27

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I had some extra points after buying some games and had the option to either buy a song for Rock Band, or a pack. I went with the pack because, well why not. But I wouldn't go so far as to buy points for the sole purpose of getting these packs.

#125
Mandalore313

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