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Hilarious Weapon Balance Issues


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#126
Axialbloom

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niko20 wrote...

The flat armor reduction is actually more realistic. In reality you cant shoot up a tank with an SMG. You need heavy weapons for heavy armor. It may be just a game but its gold level here so you need powerful weapons. I dont see a problem with it. And on silver most weapons work fine.

you can also put armor pierce on weapons and then add some ap ammo 3 or warp ammo 3? The ammo alone reduces armor protection by over 35%.


This does not really work, because Mass Effect SMGs and ARs are not like the ones we have.  That said, they should be worse against armour and better against shields.

#127
Axialbloom

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The Arc Pistol is gold/rare, and is perhaps the worst gun in the game.

#128
Rav950

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I pretty much just use the Carnifex and GPS and Widow (until I get a Black Widow or Javelin and can put it in the dumpster).

I think the fundamental problem with balance is in the difficulty levels. When people complain about something being OP, its because someone is using a Gold-caliber weapon to rip through trash in Bronze. And when they complain its UP, its because the same weapons they performed well with in Bronze or Silver are utterly useless in Gold.

About the only way it could reasonably be balanced is if "The Alliance" limited weapons to the classes that they are balanced for. So if you want to snipe trash on Bronze, you'll be packing a Mantis and not a Widow.

#129
tvih

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niko20 wrote...

The flat armor reduction is actually more realistic. In reality you cant shoot up a tank with an SMG. You need heavy weapons for heavy armor. It may be just a game but its gold level here so you need powerful weapons. I dont see a problem with it. And on silver most weapons work fine.

you can also put armor pierce on weapons and then add some ap ammo 3 or warp ammo 3? The ammo alone reduces armor protection by over 35%.

But as I said before, since when was the ME series realistic to begin with? So screwing up balance just to make one thing work semi-realistically is just bad design, especially as fast weapons are no longer better against Barriers and Shields like they used to be. But even if they were, there's just so many armored targets that they'd still be subpar. The ME2 damage system worked fine in my opinion, so I'm not sure why they changed it for the worse.

And as for "heavy weapons for heavy armor" - isn't that part of the issue here? Some of the said "heavier" weapons, like Assault Rifles, are worse against armor than light pistols.

#130
Roninraver

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Lycidas wrote...

Axialbloom wrote...

Do you honestly not know how percentages work? 15 shots is 1500 damage, at 100 a shot. This is reduced by the 25% to 15 x 75, which is 1125. Now a single 1500 damage shot is reduced by the 25% to...1125. Wow, the same damage!

This is basic stuff, buddy. Any school kid should know this.

Lol
Just keep turning the numbers...

In your example the slow firing weapon did 1000 points of damage not 1500
so the correct math would be:
- One shot at 1000pts. at 25% reduction = 750pts.damage total
- 10 shots at 100pts. of damage each at 25% reduction per shot = 75x10 = 750pts. damage total
- 15 shots at 100pts. of damage each at 25% reduction per shot = 75x15 = 1125pts. of damage total

Conclusion: higher ROF > higher damage per shot


Which could be said to be a fair trade.  Considering that the person cranking out ten or fifteen shots is out of cover and exposed to damage maybe three to six times longer than the person that pops out, cranks off a round and then retreats to reload.


That is what I feel the real issue is here.  Armor flat damage reduction is bad, this is worse.

There is literally no compensation of any kind for the fact that a person using an automatic weapon is exposed to incoming damage a far greater amount of time than those with semi-auto or single-shot weapons.


As it stands currently, the automatic weapon user will do less damage, and take more damage in the same time-frame as those using the high-alpha weapons.


There exists not a single situation in the game currently that I can call to mind, where I would rather have an automatic weapon in my hand instead of something that front-loads the hurt.


There is no trade off, and therefore no balance.



Oh, and I am a shotgun user myself.  If not that, I'm generally packing a Carnifex.  So there is no bias here.

Just an honest appraisal of the situation, from someone that hopes my friends that enjoy hearing
"DAKKA-DAKKA-DAKKA!" get some much needed love.

#131
Axialbloom

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I use the Valiant, Geth Plasma Shotgun and the Carnifix.

The whole out of cover thing is a valid point. Staying out of cover on Gold means you die, which makes SMGs and ARs even worse.

#132
Lycidas

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Axialbloom wrote...

What the hell are you talking about? If the AR does 1500 damage before reduction OF COURSE we compare it against a Sniper Rifle doing 1500 damage before reduction. Why would anyone be stupid enough to compare a Sniper Rifle to an AR that does 50% more damage than it?

Honestly, are you STILL IN school or something?

Look: 1 shot of 100 damage gets reduced the same as 10 shots of 10 damage by percentage reduction.

Look all I'm saying is if you do a % based damage reduction on armornow without reevaluating the whole DPS table you nerf hard hitting low ROF weapons and buff high ROF weapons. If you actually do reevaluate the whole DPS table why have armor at all? It's kind of boring if every weapon is effected by it the same way.

#133
Axialbloom

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Then they need to make ARs and SMGs shield killers, like they were in two. Also reducing the armour penalty in gold and compensating somewhere else would be good. An AR doing 5 damage a bullet to armour is pretty stupid...

#134
Mazandus

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niko20 wrote...

Why should an SMG work against heavy armor? That doesnt make sense. It sprays tiny bullets. Of course an armor penatly will make it useless. Thats the point.


Because solid projectiles obey physics. Because every sub machine gun in the real world fires a 9mm or .45 which is the same damned ammo used by every acutal usable sidearm in every military on earth. If you somehow ended up in a gun fight with a glock against an mp5, you would be dead. There is no such thing as a "hand cannon" ala Mass Effect 3 Heavy pistols. Just delving into the minds of whoever wrote the lore, for a second, why in Shepard's name would any engineer or weapons designer create sub machine guns and assault rifles that fire bolts of metal of a lesser caliber than is used in the pistols? It makes absolutely no sense. But, whatever, this is a game, that's not the real issue here.

The issue is that the only weapons in Mass Effect 3 that obey the Mass Effect 3 premise (At least as presented to us, the player) of heavier weapon equals better weapon which reduces your power usage, thus resulting in a meaningful choice, is the sniper rifles. They are heavy, they are powerful. This is why "everyone" plays infiltrator and why you also see engineers, asari vanguards (leeeeeet headshooooootzzz) and other assorted detritus run around with widows. On the other end of the spectrum the pistols completely break the very premise of weight vs weapon damage. Pistols almost without exception weigh nothing, and do decent damage, only limited by their shot capacity, which is hardly a trade off at all when you are playing an adept/engineer/or any other class that uses powers constantly. It's a no brainer.

When you look at assault rifles and sub machine guns, the premise quickly unravels. Not only do they all weigh more than the pistols, and some weigh more than even the sniper rifles, but they do far less damage per shot, have weird haphazard idiosyncricies, (some have no auto center, some do. go try it. get into a private bronze game and fire a shot. some of the guns will recetner (As every other major title with guns does these days) while some will not, leaving your character and his/her weapon pointing higher) and don't provide anything other than sheer volume of fire, but 5 pts of damage per shot, even if you landed 100 shots, is still 500 points of damage. Yes, let that sink in, the widow can do more than that in 1 trigger pull. I have no problem with a sniper rifle being an incredibly powerful weapon, but...come on...we have left any semblance of not only physics but military ( Shepard is a military character, I didn't create the military backdrop, BW did.) doctrine. No way in hell would the Alliance, The Turians, the Salarians, whomever, equip their soldiers with automatic spit ball guns. Unless they were thinking they could tickle the Reapers to death. Which, yes is exactly what happens with an AR/SMG in gold. You are tickling the enemy.


This is the problem with the weapons in ME3. The snipers work for what they are, have drawbacks in rate of fire, capacity and weight. The pistols are very powerful because they have good damage, low to nonexistant weight and are only limited by capacity. The assault rifles and sub machine guns, (and also shotguns) all weigh vastly more than the pistols (And sometimes more than the sniper rifles) but do subpar damage, have good capacity, but restrict the cool downs of the player so severely that it is generally unadvisable to equip them. The entire weight = more powerful weapon but less frequent use of powers mechanic is not supported by the weapons themselves. The heavier weapons are in no way a better choice for most classes, as they restrict power usage too greatly while offering no significant upgrade in firepower in return, (I would argue that pistols and snipers are simply the best choice for ANY class, but I'm sure I'll be shouted down.) taking away a meaningful player choice that is only magnified by the random pack = item method of acquiring gear.


Anecdotal is anecdotal. I finally completed a gold reaper (got tired of killig geth and cerb) last night (my N7 is like 100something I only recently started getting into it after the single player campaign, so there are undoubtedly more experienced players than myself), I played the Asari Adept, and I used a Locust V with warp ammo.(LOLZ?)  I didn't even get 25 smg kills. This is Reapers, on Gold. The sheer volume of enemies, husks, cannibals, maraurders, etc, that are constantly spawning and rushing towards you, and I didn't get a bronze smg medal. I can aim. I have played many iterations of COD, BF, Day of Defeat, Counter Strike, you name it, I've shot someone in it. Yes, as an AA, I was primarily there for statis bubble and setting up and detonating biotic explosions, but FFS, I was barely tickling these things. I'm not even talking the Banshee's Barriers, I mean a Husk. Plenty of hit markers, zero stopping power. Yes, we won the match, but for all the "damage" I contributed with the Locust V (not 1, V, thanks RNG) I might as well have just hurled angry insults at the screen while waiting for my powers to come off cooldown.


Even if instead of 5 damage per shot, something like the Avenger did 10 damage per shot on Gold, and all the other assault rifles and sub machine guns and shotguns got a similar buff, things would be more interesting than they currently are. Or if the system reverted to a more ME2 approach where the fast firing weapons actually had a huge benefit vs shields/barriers, then there would at least be some kind of meaningful choice. Right now, I don't see any. All I see is players making the best out of what the almighty store randomizer gifts them. There are those who have unlocked widows/javelins/black widows/high level carnifex, and those who have not. I really hope BW is taking that into account when they look at whatever data they base their balance changes upon, because, its pretty obvious, to a pretty seasoned gamer, that most of the weapons in this game are complete crap.

Modifié par Mazandus, 02 avril 2012 - 03:30 .


#135
Autochthon

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Mazandus wrote...

niko20 wrote...

Why should an SMG work against heavy armor? That doesnt make sense. It sprays tiny bullets. Of course an armor penatly will make it useless. Thats the point.


Because solid projectiles obey physics. Because every sub machine gun in the real world fires a 9mm or .45 which is the same damned ammo used by every acutal usable sidearm in every military on earth. If you somehow ended up in a gun fight with a glock against an mp5, you would be dead. There is no such thing as a "hand cannon" ala Mass Effect 3 Heavy pistols. Just delving into the minds of whoever wrote the lore, for a second, why in Shepard's name would any engineer or weapons designer create sub machine guns and assault rifles that fire bolts of metal of a lesser caliber than is used in the pistols? It makes absolutely no sense. But, whatever, this is a game, that's not the real issue here.

The issue is that the only weapons in Mass Effect 3 that obey the Mass Effect 3 premise (At least as presented to us, the player) of heavier weapon equals better weapon which reduces your power usage, thus resulting in a meaningful choice, is the sniper rifles. They are heavy, they are powerful. This is why "everyone" plays infiltrator and why you also see engineers, asari vanguards (leeeeeet headshooooootzzz) and other assorted detritus run around with widows. On the other end of the spectrum the pistols completely break the very premise of weight vs weapon damage. Pistols almost without exception weigh nothing, and do decent damage, only limited by their shot capacity, which is hardly a trade off at all when you are playing an adept/engineer/or any other class that uses powers constantly. It's a no brainer.

When you look at assault rifles and sub machine guns, the premise quickly unravels. Not only do they all weigh more than the pistols, and some weigh more than even the sniper rifles, but they do far less damage per shot, have weird haphazard idiosyncricies, (some have no auto center, some do. go try it. get into a private bronze game and fire a shot. some of the guns will recetner (As every other major title with guns does these days) while some will not, leaving your character and his/her weapon pointing higher) and don't provide anything other than sheer volume of fire, but 5 pts of damage per shot, even if you landed 100 shots, is still 500 points of damage. Yes, let that sink in, the widow can do more than that in 1 trigger pull. I have no problem with a sniper rifle being an incredibly powerful weapon, but...come on...we have left any semblance of not only physics but military ( Shepard is a military character, I didn't create the military backdrop, BW did.) doctrine. No way in hell would the Alliance, The Turians, the Salarians, whomever, equip their soldiers with automatic spit ball guns. Unless they were thinking they could tickle the Reapers to death. Which, yes is exactly what happens with an AR/SMG in gold. You are tickling the enemy.


This is the problem with the weapons in ME3. The snipers work for what they are, have drawbacks in rate of fire, capacity and weight. The pistols are very powerful because they have good damage, low to nonexistant weight and are only limited by capacity. The assault rifles and sub machine guns, (and also shotguns) all weigh vastly more than the pistols (And sometimes more than the sniper rifles) but do subpar damage, have good capacity, but restrict the cool downs of the player so severely that it is generally unadvisable to equip them. The entire weight = more powerful weapon but less frequent use of powers mechanic is not supported by the weapons themselves. The heavier weapons are in no way a better choice for most classes, as they restrict power usage too greatly while offering no significant upgrade in firepower in return, (I would argue that pistols and snipers are simply the best choice for ANY class, but I'm sure I'll be shouted down.) taking away a meaningful player choice that is only magnified by the random pack = item method of acquiring gear.


Anecdotal is anecdotal. I finally completed a gold reaper last night (my N7 is like 100something I only recently started getting into it after the single player campaign, so there are undoubtedly more experienced players than myself), I played the Asari Adept, and I used a Locust V with warp ammo.(LOLZ?)  I didn't even get 25 smg kills. This is Reapers, on Gold. The sheer volume of enemies, husks, cannibals, maraurders, etc, that are constantly spawning and rushing towards you, and I didn't get a bronze smg medal. I can aim. I have played many iterations of COD, BF, Day of Defeat, Counter Strike, you name it, I've shot someone in it. Yes, as an AA, I was primarily there for statis bubble and setting up and detonating biotic explosions, but FFS, I was barely tickling these things. I'm not even talking the Banshee's Barriers, I mean a Husk. Plenty of hit markers, zero stopping power. Yes, we won the match, but for all the "damage" I contributed with the Locust V (not 1, V, thanks RNG) I might as well have just hurled angry insults at the screen while waiting for my powers to come off cooldown.


Even if instead of 5 damage per shot, something like the Avenger did 10 damage per shot on Gold, and all the other assault rifles and sub machine guns and shotguns got a similar buff, things would be more interesting than they currently are. Or if the system reverted to a more ME2 approach where the fast firing weapons actually had a huge benefit vs shields/barriers, then there would at least be some kind of meaningful choice. Right now, I don't see any. All I see is players making the best out of what the almighty store randomizer gifts them. There are those who have unlocked widows/javelins/black widows/high level carnifex, and those who have not. I really hope BW is taking that into account when they look at whatever data they base their balance changes upon, because, its pretty obvious, to a pretty seasoned gamer, that most of the weapons in this game are complete crap.

I will point out that in all likelihod the projectiles in AR/SMG weapons are actually lower caliber simply because of the way the bulets are created (shaved from a metal block that also picks up waste heat then fired through a mass accelerator at near light speed) so it makes sense for armor to mitigate more damage from faster RoF weapons.

The problem is that they didn't carry over the rock/paper/scissors game from ME2 thereby ruining the premise of the weapon setup.

#136
Lycidas

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Axialbloom wrote...

Then they need to make ARs and SMGs shield killers, like they were in two. Also reducing the armour penalty in gold and compensating somewhere else would be good. An AR doing 5 damage a bullet to armour is pretty stupid...

Acknowledged.

#137
dumael

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Mazandus wrote...

I would argue that pistols and snipers are simply the best choice for ANY class, but I'm sure I'll be shouted down.


I agree. Since damage against armor is reduced by a flat amount (to a minimum), it rewards high damage weapons--sniper rifles, hand cannons. Rapid fire weapons are hammered in terms of damage. The only circumstance vs. a single enemy where high spike damage weapons are bad is when you lose damage with the shield gate. Sure, rapid fire weapons don't suffer this problem, but with the massive proliferation of armor, they're terrible.

As for dealing with multiple enemies, i've found powers to be far more useful that trying to spray a mob with cryo ammo.

In short, the shield-gate feels like half a mechanical bonus for rapid-fire weapons.

#138
Axialbloom

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What I would like to see is armour reducing SMG and AR damage by a percentage, and shields/barriers reducing Sniper and Heavy Pistol by a percentage. Shotguns would depend on the individual gun. Something like that at least.

#139
Kavadas

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niko20 wrote...

...why in Shepard's name would any engineer or weapons designer create sub machine guns and assault rifles that fire bolts of metal of a lesser caliber than is used in the pistols? It makes absolutely no sense. 


LOL, you realize that nearly all pistol rounds are a larger caliber than rifle rounds, right?

The two most common assault/battle rifle rounds in the world are the 5.56mm and 7.62mm though the 7.62mm comes in two common lengths.

"Caliber" does not mean what you think it means.

Modifié par Kavadas, 02 avril 2012 - 03:49 .


#140
mrcanada

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TexasToast712 wrote...

Guns are fine. It's your skill as a player that is broken.


Spoken from someone who either plays bronze exclusively or doesn't play MP at all.  

#141
Roninraver

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Lycidas wrote...

Axialbloom wrote...

What the hell are you talking about? If the AR does 1500 damage before reduction OF COURSE we compare it against a Sniper Rifle doing 1500 damage before reduction. Why would anyone be stupid enough to compare a Sniper Rifle to an AR that does 50% more damage than it?

Honestly, are you STILL IN school or something?

Look: 1 shot of 100 damage gets reduced the same as 10 shots of 10 damage by percentage reduction.

Look all I'm saying is if you do a % based damage reduction on armornow without reevaluating the whole DPS table you nerf hard hitting low ROF weapons and buff high ROF weapons. If you actually do reevaluate the whole DPS table why have armor at all? It's kind of boring if every weapon is effected by it the same way.



I'm going to point this out to you, because you very well may not realize it.


With that statement right there, it becomes apparent to all who read it that you do not care about actually balancing the game.


You come across as someone that doesn't care for automatic weapons much, and favors high-alpha weapons.
As such, you are perfectly content with leaving things as they are, because your favored weapons are fine at the moment, and you don't want to take the risk that they may be adversely affected by a rebalance.



If the first scenario you posted were to actually occur, high-alpha weapons would still be effective against armor.

Possibly not quite as effective depending on what the percentage is, but they can still afford to lose quite a lot of damage due to armor and continue to pack a punch.



Automatic weapons would finally be worth actually having in your hand against armor (or anything else.)

They may even outstrip a high-alpha weapon in damage done over a given period of time.

Keep in mind that it may take awhile, and that for the entire duration of the automatic weapon playing catchup to that one shot you fired, the person holding it is potentially being filled full of holes as well.

Also keep in mind, that you may continue to shoot more than a single bullet.  And take less damage while doing so.



That would be BALANCE.  The high-alpha weapon would still absolutely wreck things with each shot, and the user can remain in relative safety as he perforates targets.
But the automatic weapon would have the potential to catch up eventually, if the user can stay alive long enough and not run out of ammo.



That potential DOES NOT EXIST in any form today.  It is not possible in any reasonable circumstance that an automatic weapon will outstrip high-alpha weapons.
There isn't any competition.  The high-alpha weapons are unquestionably better in all cirumstances.



Using automatic weapons is possible, and can be made reasonably effective.  But never as effective.  Not even close.

If you want to be at your "best" and give your all for the team, you'll have a high-alpha weapon in hand.

Most people want to do their best, and the majority of people have a high-alpha weapon in their hand.


It's pretty boring.

Modifié par Roninraver, 02 avril 2012 - 03:55 .


#142
Sabbatine

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Mazandus wrote...

The issue is that the only weapons in Mass Effect 3 that obey the Mass Effect 3 premise (At least as presented to us, the player) of heavier weapon equals better weapon which reduces your power usage, thus resulting in a meaningful choice, is the sniper rifles. They are heavy, they are powerful. This is why "everyone" plays infiltrator...


Lots of infiltrators prefer to use shotguns over sniper rifles or pistols.  The reason people play infiltrator is not sniper rifles, but the infiltrator's ability to greatly improve any weapon that already has high damage per shot.

Mazandus wrote...

...but 5 pts of damage per shot, even if you landed 100 shots, is still 500 points of damage. Yes, let that sink in, the widow can do more than that in 1 trigger pull.


I think the real issue has more to do with them removing some of the tools they had in ME2 to alter weapon balance like modifiers for weapon range.  Every weapon aside from sniper rifles did more damage the closer an enemy was but when this was removed they destroyed half of their only means of balancing rapid fire weapons.

Then they went and destroyed their other means of balance by removing multipliers weapons did versus certain defense types.


As a side note though, none of the militaries equipped their armies to fight against reapers so that comparison isn't really very good.

Modifié par Sabbatine, 02 avril 2012 - 03:54 .


#143
Mazandus

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Autochthon wrote...


The problem is that they didn't carry over the rock/paper/scissors game from ME2 thereby ruining the premise of the weapon setup.



You are correct, and this is space fantasy opera, so any real world analogies should be thrown out, it very well may  be that deep in the codex somewhere the "mechanics" of pistols/smg's/ar's are discussed. I was just using the real world to illustrate that militaries don't last for long if they embrace a philosophy of equipping their soldiers with crappy weapons.


And you are correct about the r/p/s as well. In ME3 the designers went for weight, which I think is interesting, but while they made the heavy weight snipers and lightweight pistols good weapons, they neglected or failed to make everything esle into a good weapon. If fast firing guns "overloaded" shields/barriers not only would that be cool lorewise (I'm pretty sure this is in the codex, somewhere) but it would be a nifty game feature as well. Right now, they don't. 

(I want all the classes and all the weapon types to be viable, and by viable I mean fun and capable, as opposed to feeling weak and pointless, on Gold. I think classes and weapons losing viability is lazy and bad design. From a purely business perspective I would think EA would demand all the guns/classes work just to ensure people keep spending $ on packs. (along with having the winning lotto ticket chasers buying for the N7's), but I guess they went for a "lets make most of this **** suck" method instead. So instead of positive reinforcement whereby anyone interested in the game would likely keep buying packs to as to complete their toolset and have different options for different situations, EA/BW went for the $10 in my bank account lets see if we win the lotto negative reinforcement method. Here's your Geth Pulse Rifle III. Enjoy!)



For example, I have no problem with the Quarian Infiltrator being much better vs Geth and weaker vs Reapers. To carry with that theme, if smg's and other automatics were better vs shields/barriers than they currently are, a second layer of choice would emerge with players opting to use such weapons vs geth or cerberus, who have a number of shielded forces, where maybe vs Reapers the player should consider using a Mattock or something to deal with the large number of armored foes. (This doesn't change that even the Mattock feels weak vs Gold pure health enemies when compared to a carnifex or even a phalanx. ) This is depth and choice, reinforced by the game's flavor. Maybe the sub machine guns would have a better place if (the ultralight materials bug needs to be fixed as well) adepts and engineers started using them more often vs geth and cerberus or even vs reapers with incindiery ammo provided they could inflict more than 5 damage per hit. Perhaps the other non geth shotguns would be worth their weight if, even for flavor they retained their weakness vs armor, they did MASSIVE damage to unarmored foes.

I don't necessarily want the pistols to be nerfed, I did say they should be last week, but I've since cooled on that, rather the other weapons (smg's/ar's/shotguns) should be buffed. The Mattock doesn't have to do as much damage per shot as a Carnifex, but it should hit harder than it currently does. I would rather the weapons had strenghts and weaknesses (As well as the classes, like the Soldier and the Sentinel who are more reliant on weapons as they don't have 3 at will combat abilities to choose from) rather than just diluting the pool of random items available as they currently do.

#144
Shadowsword8

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Shadowsword8 wrote...

The only thing really wrong with weapon balance is that armor should reduce XX% of incoming damage, not a flat amount per bullet.


Have you actually put some thought into this? While it _might_ help AR's and SMG's (depending on the %) it would gimp every high damage per hit weapon like sniper rifles.


My Carnifex X and GPS XI are telling me they can easily take a little damage nerf and still be in the "Pretty damn good" category.

#145
Autochthon

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Mazandus wrote...

Autochthon wrote...


The problem is that they didn't carry over the rock/paper/scissors game from ME2 thereby ruining the premise of the weapon setup.



You are correct, and this is space fantasy opera, so any real world analogies should be thrown out, it very well may  be that deep in the codex somewhere the "mechanics" of pistols/smg's/ar's are discussed. I was just using the real world to illustrate that militaries don't last for long if they embrace a philosophy of equipping their soldiers with crappy weapons.


And you are correct about the r/p/s as well. In ME3 the designers went for weight, which I think is interesting, but while they made the heavy weight snipers and lightweight pistols good weapons, they neglected or failed to make everything esle into a good weapon. If fast firing guns "overloaded" shields/barriers not only would that be cool lorewise (I'm pretty sure this is in the codex, somewhere) but it would be a nifty game feature as well. Right now, they don't. 

(I want all the classes and all the weapon types to be viable, and by viable I mean fun and capable, as opposed to feeling weak and pointless, on Gold. I think classes and weapons losing viability is lazy and bad design. From a purely business perspective I would think EA would demand all the guns/classes work just to ensure people keep spending $ on packs. (along with having the winning lotto ticket chasers buying for the N7's), but I guess they went for a "lets make most of this **** suck" method instead. So instead of positive reinforcement whereby anyone interested in the game would likely keep buying packs to as to complete their toolset and have different options for different situations, EA/BW went for the $10 in my bank account lets see if we win the lotto negative reinforcement method. Here's your Geth Pulse Rifle III. Enjoy!)



For example, I have no problem with the Quarian Infiltrator being much better vs Geth and weaker vs Reapers. To carry with that theme, if smg's and other automatics were better vs shields/barriers than they currently are, a second layer of choice would emerge with players opting to use such weapons vs geth or cerberus, who have a number of shielded forces, where maybe vs Reapers the player should consider using a Mattock or something to deal with the large number of armored foes. (This doesn't change that even the Mattock feels weak vs Gold pure health enemies when compared to a carnifex or even a phalanx. ) This is depth and choice, reinforced by the game's flavor. Maybe the sub machine guns would have a better place if (the ultralight materials bug needs to be fixed as well) adepts and engineers started using them more often vs geth and cerberus or even vs reapers with incindiery ammo provided they could inflict more than 5 damage per hit. Perhaps the other non geth shotguns would be worth their weight if, even for flavor they retained their weakness vs armor, they did MASSIVE damage to unarmored foes.

I don't necessarily want the pistols to be nerfed, I did say they should be last week, but I've since cooled on that, rather the other weapons (smg's/ar's/shotguns) should be buffed. The Mattock doesn't have to do as much damage per shot as a Carnifex, but it should hit harder than it currently does. I would rather the weapons had strenghts and weaknesses (As well as the classes, like the Soldier and the Sentinel who are more reliant on weapons as they don't have 3 at will combat abilities to choose from) rather than just diluting the pool of random items available as they currently do.

The games weapons use the premise of "With enough acceleration bullet wait ceases to matter"

In other words weapons like Hand Cannons and Sniper rifles use heavier munitions just to be able to fight armor. Whereas AR/SMG weapons DO NOT use heavy munitions as its a waste of materiel since the difference between a 1g mass and 100g mass accelerated to near light speed in terms of damage to flesh is negligible (they both kill you with a headshot). While faster fire rates canonically overpower shields (and theoretically Shotties should be good across the field depending on slug size).

It's all in the canonical codex.

#146
Highlord Heian

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Shadowsword8 wrote...

Shadowsword8 wrote...

The only thing really wrong with weapon balance is that armor should reduce XX% of incoming damage, not a flat amount per bullet.


Have you actually put some thought into this? While it _might_ help AR's and SMG's (depending on the %) it would gimp every high damage per hit weapon like sniper rifles.


My Carnifex X and GPS XI are telling me they can easily take a little damage nerf and still be in the "Pretty damn good" category.


My Carnifex IX says I will never get the last upgrade for it, and that it wonders how you got your GPS to rank 11.

#147
Mazandus

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Kavadas wrote...

niko20 wrote...

...why in Shepard's name would any engineer or weapons designer create sub machine guns and assault rifles that fire bolts of metal of a lesser caliber than is used in the pistols? It makes absolutely no sense. 


LOL, you realize that nearly all pistol rounds are a larger caliber than rifle rounds, right?

The two most common assault/battle rifle rounds in the world are the 5.56mm and 7.62mm though the 7.62mm comes in two common lengths.

"Caliber" does not mean what you think it means.


You do realize that the cartridge containing the powder/proprellant is what propels the bullet? Hence in earth 2012 a 9mm pistol will have less effective range, despite being fatter or bigger or whatever it is you are trying to prove, than the full sized rifle cartridges (5.56, 7.62) as not only is the projectile empowered by less propellant, but the barrel of the pistol is far shorter thus reducing velocity and range further? If you were to be shot at point blank range, you would be dead from either. So I don't get what you are trying to debunk.

In ME, the mass drivers propel the projectiles, which are slabs of metal or some kind of hard carbon type substance. Since the weapon, and not the projectile is providing all the force, this makes the entire premise of military grade automatic weapons less effective than sidearms even more laughable. In reality weapon's manufacturer's are limited by physics and powder. In ME, since the mass driver does all the work, why the **** wouldn't you throw giant carnifex sized projectiles out of an avenger? It seems all that matters is physical size of the actual muzzle hole, because barrel length certainly means nothing as the pistols are more accurate than most of the rifles at range.

Anyway, stop trolling.

#148
RazRei

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Shadowsword8 wrote...

My Carnifex X and GPS XI are telling me they can easily take a little damage nerf and still be in the "Pretty damn good" category.


My Widow X, Javelin II and Javelin I are telling me you don't own a GPS XI.

Did someone really just now on the forums compare a 9mm to a 5.56?

Modifié par RazRei, 02 avril 2012 - 04:25 .


#149
Mazandus

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Sabbatine wrote...

Mazandus wrote...

The issue is that the only weapons in Mass Effect 3 that obey the Mass Effect 3 premise (At least as presented to us, the player) of heavier weapon equals better weapon which reduces your power usage, thus resulting in a meaningful choice, is the sniper rifles. They are heavy, they are powerful. This is why "everyone" plays infiltrator...


Lots of infiltrators prefer to use shotguns over sniper rifles or pistols.  The reason people play infiltrator is not sniper rifles, but the infiltrator's ability to greatly improve any weapon that already has high damage per shot.

Mazandus wrote...

...but 5 pts of damage per shot, even if you landed 100 shots, is still 500 points of damage. Yes, let that sink in, the widow can do more than that in 1 trigger pull.


I think the real issue has more to do with them removing some of the tools they had in ME2 to alter weapon balance like modifiers for weapon range.  Every weapon aside from sniper rifles did more damage the closer an enemy was but when this was removed they destroyed half of their only means of balancing rapid fire weapons.

Then they went and destroyed their other means of balance by removing multipliers weapons did versus certain defense types.


As a side note though, none of the militaries equipped their armies to fight against reapers so that comparison isn't really very good.



I think lots of infiltrator's who use shotguns do it for the lolz. (Unless they have a geth plasma, which is obscenely powerful.) I know I do. (use it for the lolz, I do not have a Geth Plasma). I would never think it was a better option than one of the sniper rifles though.

And I was just using the whole Turians/Alliance equipping their men thing as a way of illustrating the frustration of emptying a whole magazine into a maraurder for instance and barely hurting it. Please stop bringing it up, everyone. The point is most of the guns in this game are crap. I haven't seen anyone even try to counter my point about the whole weapon weight vs weapon power mechanic being broken.

#150
InstaShark

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My Vindicator X w/mods works fine vs. cannon fodder on Gold. If anything else, there's always powers.