182 réponses à ce sujet

[GideonX7]

No guns should be nerfed they just need to improve/fix AR's/SMG:

And balance here is not to say all guns should do the same damage but they need to be balanced weight to damage ratios.

AR's weigh far too much for the damage output they have. So if you use them they kill your power regeneration and don't provide you with killing power from you weapon. There is no question an AR will weigh more than a pistol but it should also far out perform them in damage.

SMG's just need the light weight material bug fixed. If they fix that their weight to damage will be fine as it is their damage is too low. SMGs seem to be setup as a backup weapon for "power" users. If the light weight bug is fixed this allows you a full automatic with low damage to backup your power abilities that should have a 200% time boost if the bug is fixed.

[Kavadas]

Mazandus wrote...

Stuff.

Apparently you don't know what "caliber" means either.  The dude didn't mention the cartridge, he said rifles used a larger caliber round than pistols which is incorrect.  Pistol rounds are almost always a larger caliber than rifle rounds.

It's not my fault you and that dude don't know anything about firearm nomenclature and use incorrect terminology which doesn't even come close to meaning whatever it is you're trying to say.

Modifié par Kavadas, 02 avril 2012 - 04:33 .

[niko20]

 So what as a communith can we agree on for changes? the armor percentage instead of flat does not seem to solve all the issues. 

[Mazandus]

Kavadas wrote...

Mazandus wrote...

Stuff.

Apparently you don't know what "caliber" means either.  The dude didn't mention the cartridge, he said rifles used a larger caliber round than pistols which is incorrect.  Pistol rounds are almost always a larger caliber than rifle rounds.

It's not my fault you and that dude don't know anything about firearm nomenclature and use incorrect terminology which doesn't even come close to meaning whatever it is you're trying to say.

I got my terminology wrong. My bad. You win. Can we move on from this please and focus on the actual game?

[Roninraver]

Kavadas wrote...

Mazandus wrote...

Stuff.

Apparently you don't know what "caliber" means either.  The dude didn't mention the cartridge, he said rifles used a larger caliber round than pistols which is incorrect.  Pistol rounds are almost always a larger caliber than rifle rounds.

It's not my fault you and that dude don't know anything about firearm nomenclature and use incorrect terminology which doesn't even come close to meaning whatever it is you're trying to say.

His terminology may have been wrong, but the meaning was still clear based on the context he (mis)used it in.

Do you find his intended meaning impossible to grasp in light of the misuse of the word caliber?

Allow me to help you then, my confused chum:  He probably meant grains.
Or the Mass Effect universe equivalent measurement.  How about just "the mass of the thing coming out the dangerous end?"


Does that help?  Do you feel better now?


Good.


Now address his actual point, which has merit given the level of technology available in the ME universe and the presumed leeway allowed by it where ballistics are concerned, or go away.  You've contributed nothing.

[Mazandus]

Let's just all settle down.


The issue here is that the weight/weapon dynamic doesn't result in a satisfying experience for the player. The light weapons out perform the heavier weapons, taking away any meaningful choice for the player.

This is due to a variety of factors and has a variety of solutions. (If auto's were better against shields, if the smg's/ar's/shotties did more damage natively then they could do more than 5 points damage per hit on gold in the worst circumstances, etc..) Lets just agree there is a problem with the weapon weight dynamic. Which I don't think anyone can argue with.

[Patch3Z]

as mentioned before, i think it's tough trying to balance weapons for all 3 skill levels.
the mentioned carnifex and window are essentially made for the gold skill level, and much too powerful bronze (why would you use a 'level 1' weapon on 'level 50' or vise versa?). i take smg's and AR's to max out around the silver level, while some special weapons are made for gold.

i know it's not PvP, but imagine a team death match for an FPS...
a team of skilled snipers will destroy a team with ARs on a medium/larger maps because it would be tough to get more than a few shots off with your AR before getting headshotted (oooh, not a word). this is how i see gold - it is essentially for elite bolt/sniper riflers

as for silver, i think just about every weapon is still fair game although some may be worst than others.

and this is just a game, how can you really compare real life and computer games. even FPS' need to have realism removed otherwise they would no longer become 'fun'.
real life: any random bullet hit will essential wound or kill (so go yay for random bullet spamming with smg's and ar's)
game: shrug off and recover from random bullet hit (aka halo/cod shield/health recharge)


*** lastly, i may have missed some posts... but has anyone mentioned the 1-hit (multiple) kill missile launcher? can anyone say over-powered?
hell, for those people with multiple missile capacity upgrades... they can probably clear the last 2 stages of gold by themselves, let alone finish bronze with ease.

Modifié par Patch3Z, 02 avril 2012 - 05:09 .

[Patch3Z]

oops, double post fail!

Modifié par Patch3Z, 02 avril 2012 - 05:11 .

[Kavadas]

Roninraver wrote...

Herp-derp.

You mad, bro?

Modifié par Kavadas, 02 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[Roninraver]

Kavadas wrote...

Roninraver wrote...

Herp-derp.

You mad, bro?

That's it?

That's what you come back with?


Not addressing the topic at hand?  Not addressing the point of the man you were trolling?

Instead, you attempt to troll me?  The one who slapped you down moments ago?


I mean, I'm flattered.  I really am, but... I think we should just stay friends.  I'm not a one Troll kinda guy.

It's not you, it's me!  I have issues with intimacy.  I'm still too selfish to fully devote myself to another!






Also, you smell kinda funny.  Not like "ha-ha" funny, but... y'know.  "Funny", funny.  

[Kavadas]

Roninraver wrote...

Herp-derp-herp.

Ooh, he mad!

(I'm not even reading your posts at this point but I know with 100% certainty that like all internet weirdos you will ALWAYS respond to my posts)

Modifié par Kavadas, 02 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[Roninraver]

Kavadas wrote...

Roninraver wrote...

Herp-derp-herp.

Ooh, he mad!

(I'm not even reading your posts at this point but I know with 100% certainty that like all internet weirdos you will ALWAYS respond to my posts)

Nooooo, you mad!  You've been shut down twice and it's KILLING you inside!  Your inner turmoil, I see it.

But sure, whatever.  I mad, bro.  Wanna fight about it?

Or do we skip ahead to the making out?  Gotta do something about that odor first!  


Also, please, you know you're reading this right now.  Thinking about me while you do it, your heart all atwitter!




On topic:

Patch3Z wrote...

as mentioned before, i think it's tough trying to balance weapons for all 3 skill levels.
the mentioned carnifex and window are essentially made for the gold skill level, and much too powerful bronze (why would you use a 'level 1' weapon on 'level 50' or vise versa?). i take smg's and AR's to max out around the silver level, while some special weapons are made for gold.

i know it's not PvP, but imagine a team death match for an FPS...
a team of skilled snipers will destroy a team with ARs on a medium/larger maps because it would be tough to get more than a few shots off with your AR before getting headshotted (oooh, not a word). this is how i see gold - it is essentially for elite bolt/sniper riflers

as for silver, i think just about every weapon is still fair game although some may be worst than others.

and this is just a game, how can you really compare real life and computer games. even FPS' need to have realism removed otherwise they would no longer become 'fun'.
real life: any random bullet hit will essential wound or kill (so go yay for random bullet spamming with smg's and ar's)
game: shrug off and recover from random bullet hit (aka halo/cod shield/health recharge)


*** lastly, i may have missed some posts... but has anyone mentioned the 1-hit (multiple) kill missile launcher? can anyone say over-powered?
hell, for those people with multiple missile capacity upgrades... they can probably clear the last 2 stages of gold by themselves, let alone finish bronze with ease.

 


That is not an entirely inaccurate summation of how the weapons perform, even if it was not intended in the design.

However, I and many others see this as a problem rather than a feature.

Entire classes of weapons should not be rendered useless because you decided you wanted a greater challenge.  

And your example of a PvP match on a long-range map doesn't work very well, because even in close quarters maps (all the ones currently available minus two) the automatic weapons perform well below the high-alpha weapons as well.

That's the driving point:  They just simply underperform, at all ranges, in all circumstances.



Oh, and missile launchers?  They are consumables, that is their limiting factor.  That and everyone has access to them, without restricting their power usage frequency or damage they are otherwise capable of dealing with their main weapon.

They're fine because no one has to give anything up to take them along, and they are limited in quantity.

[Aaperture]

 Pistols have always been the best weapons all-around since ME1.

[Lambda Diamond]

sindrie111 wrote...

AR's SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Avenger needs fixing BAD, and the carnifex needs to be nurfed also, most snipers are crazy OP.
But am I the only one who thinks skills like warp, overload,incinerate, and cryo are complete crap on silver and up....

Edit: The revenant(?) is pretty good actually but all other are fail.

Why do you want to nerf everything and oviously snipers are powerful.
Consider in real life a barrett 50 cal is it not a sniper that is OP?
Avenger doesnt need anything its a starter weapon.

[Mazandus]

Lambda Diamond wrote...

sindrie111 wrote...

AR's SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Avenger needs fixing BAD, and the carnifex needs to be nurfed also, most snipers are crazy OP.
But am I the only one who thinks skills like warp, overload,incinerate, and cryo are complete crap on silver and up....

Edit: The revenant(?) is pretty good actually but all other are fail.

Why do you want to nerf everything and oviously snipers are powerful.
Consider in real life a barrett 50 cal is it not a sniper that is OP?
Avenger doesnt need anything its a starter weapon.

...the barrett 50 cal weighs like 30 lbs, soldiers don't run around baghdad with it capping head shots. They set up in teams with a spotter and take out targets from extreme distance or set up the barret and offer tremendous fire support. But they don't run around with them like every game developer in America would like you to believe. Also, if the military could figure out a way to strap .50 cals to its soldier's arms, of course they would. Weapon's have roles, you don't shoot your M9 at a target 300 yards away, nor do you breach a doorway and enter a room with your 50 cal sniper rifle.

In ME3's case the devs actually tried to create an interesting dynamic with weapon weight restricting power cooldowns, thus giving weapons different roles besides how much damage does it do, the problem is, the sniper rifles and pistols are the only weapons that adhere to this mechanic insofar as performance as an actual weapon. The other weapon classes, while weighing more than pistols and in some cases as much/more than sniper rifles, are less lethal (the massive headshot bonus in this game attributes to this as well) , require more shots on target, thus leaving the player open to more return fire, and increase the power cooldowns. They have a heavy cost for such inferior performance. This is the problem.

Once analyzed, the semi intelligent player realizes very quickly that sniper rifles and pistols are the "best weapons" and what kind of depth is that? Its 2012, co-op class based shooters are not exactly a new genre. Programming doctrine is all about software reusability. Why game designer's constantly feel the need to reinvent the wheel with every weapon is beyond me. If you are going to refer to something as an "assault rifle" or "submachine gun" then it is your duty as a developer to make sure the weapon actually behaves as the player would expect it to.

On gold, especially, using some of the assult rifles/smg's feels like an exercise in futility, especially considering their cost in "weight."

[Aaperture]

sindrie111 wrote...

AR's SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Avenger needs fixing BAD, and the carnifex needs to be nurfed also, most snipers are crazy OP.
But am I the only one who thinks skills like warp, overload,incinerate, and cryo are complete crap on silver and up....

Edit: The revenant(?) is pretty good actually but all other are fail.

Why would you want to nerf weapons in a Co-Op game? Everyone is on the same team, wouldn't you want guns to do more damage?

Also, warp's main purpose it to setup biosplosions. 

[Mazandus]

And to be clear, I'm not asking for a huge overhaul with nerfing to the sniper's and pistols. I just think all the other weapons could use a buff. Whether that's due to some kind of new shielding mechanic, or some kind of nerf to enemy armor and damage reduction values on silver/gold, or just straight up more damage, I don't know. But I do feel something needs to be done. I would start with just an experiment to see if the game was somehow "ruined" if the Avenger did 10 damage minimum on gold as opposed to 5. And go from there. No one is saying the Avenger for example, should be a better weapon than anything else, or that I should be able to empty the Avenger and kill 6 marauders with it. But I should be able to kill a couple of husks, feel like I have more stopping power than with a phalanx/carnifex. Which, even if they retain their power and accuracy, the capacity should hinder them, or else, as we have now, why even use anything besides a pistol or sniper rifle?

[Autochthon]

Mazandus wrote...


And to be clear, I'm not asking for a huge overhaul with nerfing to the sniper's and pistols. I just think all the other weapons could use a buff. Whether that's due to some kind of new shielding mechanic, or some kind of nerf to enemy armor and damage reduction values on silver/gold, or just straight up more damage, I don't know. But I do feel something needs to be done. I would start with just an experiment to see if the game was somehow "ruined" if the Avenger did 10 damage minimum on gold as opposed to 5. And go from there. No one is saying the Avenger for example, should be a better weapon than anything else, or that I should be able to empty the Avenger and kill 6 marauders with it. But I should be able to kill a couple of husks, feel like I have more stopping power than with a phalanx/carnifex. Which, even if they retain their power and accuracy, the capacity should hinder them, or else, as we have now, why even use anything besides a pistol or sniper rifle?

Increase damage to bariers as a function fo shots per second. Now up AR and SMG base damage a tad, and normalize out shotgun damage a bit (more specifically make shotguns deal bonus damage to shields/barriers based on pellets IE multiply shottie "shots per second" by 8/3/1 depending on shottie in formulas).

Should normalize out weapon setups to some degree. After that you need some polish.

[Mazandus]

That would be a good start!

[Taldren]

The problem I see is that there is too much bluring going on between the weapon categories. You have SRs that act like ARs, pistols that act like shotguns, and SMG that act like ARs. The entire weapon balance team should be let go and a new team hired.

Shotguns should be the highest single burst damage in the game, but the pellets need to spread at a higher rate to tame it at mid and long range. Medium to Heavy weight. Primary trade off for more damage should be clip capacity and pellet spread rate.

Sniper Rifles should be the second highest single burst damage in the game, but have no damage fall off with range. Medium to Heavy Weight. Low stability outside of cover. Primary trade off for more damage should be capacity and reload times. There should be no automatic SR outside of a possible 2 or 3 round burst weapon. Else you are just making an AR into a SR.

Pistols should be the third highest single burst damage in the game, but not be anywhere near as accurate as they are. Light to Medium Weight. Primary trade off for more damage should be accuracy and stability. There should be no automatic Pistols outside of a possible 2 or 3 round burst weapon. Else you are just making a Pistol into a SMG.

ARs should be the second highest sustained damage (DPS) in the game. Medium to Heavy Weight. Primary trade off for more damage should be stability and capacity. There should be no single shot ARs. Else you are just making an AR into a SR.

SMG should be the highest sustained damage (DPS) in the game, but with almost no accuracy and stability that comes from the heavier AR platform. Light to Medium Weight. Primary trade off for more damage should be ammo capacity per clip. SMG should not have a scope option.

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I guess no-one read my post, but the benefit that AR's and SMG's have from the rate of fire, is being able to spray down groups of unarmoured enemies - the soldiers abilities of ad rush and marksman complement this perfectly. High damage low rate of fire weapons like the widow may very well kill a single "special enemy" or deal massive amounts of damage compared to an AR, however they then have to wait and relaod before they can kill another single enemy, and often shooting a single weak lower health enemy most of that high damage is wasted as it was unneccessary. An AR or SMG as an automatic weapon may not damage sheilds and armour, but abilities and high damage weapons deal with those. Groups of "normal" lower health enemies can be taken out overall much faster than say a widow, regardless of DPS, because most of that higher DPS is wasted on singular targets. As it stands, the problem with Gold is not that AR's dont damage armour very well, but that there are more armoured targets and that the armoured targets are more of a threat. A perfect balance would actually be achieved by making the amounts of low health enemies increase substantially on high difficulties to swarm the players - in this scenario the guy packing a souped up revenant would be far more useful than his team mates packing widows and geth plasma shotguns.

The only problem is that there are so many enemies with extra protection like sheilds or armour on gold, and these are often the biggest threat - its this reason people dont realise the usefulness of AR's or SMG's, as there are less occurances where they are useful on higher difficulties. If Bioware simply changed the enemy balance I am sure everything would be improved. Each weapon will have its own niche then - high damage weapons for the special enemies, high ROF for the normals.

[Mazandus]

K1LL STREAK wrote...

I guess no-one read my post, but the benefit that AR's and SMG's have from the rate of fire, is being able to spray down groups of unarmoured enemies - the soldiers abilities of ad rush and marksman complement this perfectly. High damage low rate of fire weapons like the widow may very well kill a single "special enemy" or deal massive amounts of damage compared to an AR, however they then have to wait and relaod before they can kill another single enemy, and often shooting a single weak lower health enemy most of that high damage is wasted as it was unneccessary. An AR or SMG as an automatic weapon may not damage sheilds and armour, but abilities and high damage weapons deal with those. Groups of "normal" lower health enemies can be taken out overall much faster than say a widow, regardless of DPS, because most of that higher DPS is wasted on singular targets. As it stands, the problem with Gold is not that AR's dont damage armour very well, but that there are more armoured targets and that the armoured targets are more of a threat. A perfect balance would actually be achieved by making the amounts of low health enemies increase substantially on high difficulties to swarm the players - in this scenario the guy packing a souped up revenant would be far more useful than his team mates packing widows and geth plasma shotguns.

The only problem is that there are so many enemies with extra protection like sheilds or armour on gold, and these are often the biggest threat - its this reason people dont realise the usefulness of AR's or SMG's, as there are less occurances where they are useful on higher difficulties. If Bioware simply changed the enemy balance I am sure everything would be improved. Each weapon will have its own niche then - high damage weapons for the special enemies, high ROF for the normals.

I mostly agree with this, but I contend that as of right now, the smg's and ar's and even shotguns don't even have an advantage over the pistols or snipers against pure health enemies. Their damage is just too poor.

[dumael]

Atochthon wrote...

Increase damage to bariers as a function fo shots per second. Now up AR and SMG base damage a tad, and normalize out shotgun damage a bit (more specifically make shotguns deal bonus damage to shields/barriers based on pellets IE multiply shottie "shots per second" by 8/3/1 depending on shottie in formulas).

Should normalize out weapon setups to some degree. After that you need some polish.

Yeah. That'd be pretty good.

I had a similar idea of giving bonus damage to a target with shields or barriers as a function of how many weapon impacts it has received over a time window.

Your idea is nearly trivial to implement in comparison.

[Sabbatine]

Mazandus wrote...

I think lots of infiltrator's who use shotguns do it for the lolz. (Unless they have a geth plasma, which is obscenely powerful.) I know I do. (use it for the lolz, I do not have a Geth Plasma). I would never think it was a better option than one of the sniper rifles though.

And I was just using the whole Turians/Alliance equipping their men thing as a way of illustrating the frustration of emptying a whole magazine into a maraurder for instance and barely hurting it. Please stop bringing it up, everyone. The point is most of the guns in this game are crap. I haven't seen anyone even try to counter my point about the whole weapon weight vs weapon power mechanic being broken.

Several shotguns in the hands of an infiltrator are obscenely powerful.  Shotguns are frequently (or have the potential to be) more powerful than sniper rifles on gold difficulty because they negate the "shield gate" effect and can kill shielded enemies in a single shot.

As for your statement about weapon weight vs weapon power being broken, I'm not sure how you can really make a case for that.  There are a lot more variables than weight versus damage and your opinion doesn't make it fact.

[Mazandus]

Sabbatine wrote...

Mazandus wrote...

I think lots of infiltrator's who use shotguns do it for the lolz. (Unless they have a geth plasma, which is obscenely powerful.) I know I do. (use it for the lolz, I do not have a Geth Plasma). I would never think it was a better option than one of the sniper rifles though.

And I was just using the whole Turians/Alliance equipping their men thing as a way of illustrating the frustration of emptying a whole magazine into a maraurder for instance and barely hurting it. Please stop bringing it up, everyone. The point is most of the guns in this game are crap. I haven't seen anyone even try to counter my point about the whole weapon weight vs weapon power mechanic being broken.

Several shotguns in the hands of an infiltrator are obscenely powerful.  Shotguns are frequently (or have the potential to be) more powerful than sniper rifles on gold difficulty because they negate the "shield gate" effect and can kill shielded enemies in a single shot.

As for your statement about weapon weight vs weapon power being broken, I'm not sure how you can really make a case for that.  There are a lot more variables than weight versus damage and your opinion doesn't make it fact.

What opinion?

The heavier the weapon, the longer the cooldown. This is a game mechanic. This is not an opinion.

The assault rifles and sub machine guns and shotguns weigh more than most if not all of the pistols. This is also not an opinion. By equipping them your powers are used less frequently. Again, not an opinion. The damage output of these non pistol weapons is less than their lighter counterparts. Not, an, opinion. Thus, the mid weight weapons do not perform as advertised. (I don't see this as an opinion) They restrict power usage and do not offer any firepower advantage over their lighter pistol brethren. Hence, the weapon weight systerm isn't working as intended.

That is my case.


I don't know what cloaked infiltrators have to do with this, at all, but thanks. If I mentioned shotguns before, it was in relation to non infiltrators using them, (there are 5 other classes) who don't have the alpha strike of an infiltrator. I'm sure there are many people who are very good with claymores and infiltrators, just as well I'm sure there are many people who are very good with widows and infiltrators, or even mantis' and katana's and infiltrator's. All that says to me is the infiltrator class is good, and works. My concern is with the other classes and their weapon loadouts.

Modifié par Mazandus, 02 avril 2012 - 09:00 .