240 réponses à ce sujet

[Balek-Vriege]

Lets just say Shepard is definitely a messiah, matyr, savior and lifegiver character of sorts.

The child at the end of the credits doesn't refer to Shep as "The Shepard" for nothing.

[Kanon777]

I love how the anti-christianity people will keep trying to deny the obvious paralels. Lazarus project, "tell me another story about The Sheppard" line, the self sacrifice theme... Its pretty obvious they borrowed many themes from christianity in this series...

[whichwitch]

I don't think of Shepherd as being like Jesus, but I do see the character having similarities to a "Messianic Archetype".

"In media, the Messianic Archetype is a character whose role in the story (but not necessarily personality) echoes that of Christ. They are portrayed as a savior, whether the thing they are saving is a person, a lot of people or the whole of humanity. They endure a sizable sacrifice as the means of bringing that salvation about for others, a fate they do not deserve up to and including death or a Fate Worse than Death. Other elements may be mixed and matched as required but the Messianic Archetype will include one or more of them, not limited to: being the Chosen One, gaining a group of devoted followers, being betrayed by one of these followers, persecution by non-believers, parallels to the Passion Play, obvious Crucified Hero Shot, a figurative or literal resurrection, and even a Second Coming. Bonus points if the character has the initials J. C. in their name."

Shepherd has a few of these happen to him/her.

[Ackbar vas Rannoch]

I cant speak for all sci fi fans but for me the genre has always shown that religion is not necessary and is in fact a hindrance to the advancement of us as a species. As far as i can tell most species in the mass effect universe either embrace no religion at all or follow a religion that doesnt cause them to intrude or try to change the ideas of others. The thought that such an epic sci fi story would revolve around the thought of the main character being a christ like figure annoys me.

and besides....I think the sci fi community has had enough "space jesus" related content after the whole "midi chlorians induced life and then anakin died to bring balance to the force blah blah blah."

[paralitos]

NO

[RenownedRyan]

tobito113 wrote...

I love how the anti-christianity people will keep trying to deny the obvious paralels. Lazarus project, "tell me another story about The Sheppard" line, the self sacrifice theme... Its pretty obvious they borrowed many themes from christianity in this series...

Because Jesus Christ is the only man/character in history to have sacrificed himself, right?  The Lazarus Project is an allusion to Lazarus, a man that Jesus purportedly raised from the dead.  As Shepard does not rebuild himself, this would make Miranda Lawson a Jesus parallel in your logic.  

Modifié par RenownedRyan, 01 avril 2012 - 10:47 .

[Controller_B]

I see no real biblical allusions in Mass Effect. Shepard makes a sacrifice, but that's wholly separate from Shepard needing to be the sacrifice. Lot's of people in Mass Effect make sacrifices. Shepard isn't really any more special than any of them.

I mean you can make a shallow analysis fit anything. Moses frees people from a cycle of enslavement and shepards them to a paradise that he himself never sees. But like I said, that's shallow. Shepard isn't Moses either. Shepard isn't a savior figure or a prophet.

[Kanon777]

Ackbar vas Rannoch wrote...

I cant speak for all sci fi fans but for me the genre has always shown that religion is not necessary and is in fact a hindrance to the advancement of us as a species. As far as i can tell most species in the mass effect universe either embrace no religion at all or follow a religion that doesnt cause them to intrude or try to change the ideas of others. The thought that such an epic sci fi story would revolve around the thought of the main character being a christ like figure annoys me.

and besides....I think the sci fi community has had enough "space jesus" related content after the whole "midi chlorians induced life and then anakin died to bring balance to the force blah blah blah."

The people who hated midichlorians argued that it removed the religious aspect of the Force, and made it too scientific...

You realise that the most famous scifi in history had religious (Jedi are very devout monks) characters as heroes?

[Nuchy]

RenownedRyan wrote...

Jesus Christ was a carpenter born in Nazareth. The Good Shepard was just a metaphor he used to describe himself. He also called himself a fisher of men, hence the Christ fish that we see on the back of so many vehicles. Does this mean that any protagonist named Fisher (i.e. Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell) is based on Jesus Christ?

Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' disciples. The Illusive Man is a mentor for Shepard. Also, the Illusive Man didn't really betray Shepard. That comparison doesn't make much sense.

Jesus claimed to be the son of God. Most Christians believe that he was one of the three forms of God, also known as the Holy Trinity. He was not part-God, part-man as you describe.

Jesus was executed on a Crucifix, just as all those sentenced to death in Ancient Rome were. Shepard dies onboard the Crucible. A Crucible is a word meaning a severe test or trial.

Jesus Christ had 12 disciples and Shepard did have 12 squadmates in Mass Effect 2; if the player purchased DLC. If not Shepard had only 10 squadmates. In Mass Effect 3 Shepard has 7 squadmates counting DLC. Throughout the series Shepard has 24 squadmates, counting temporary squadmates and DLC.

All of the "similarities" between Shepard and Jesus are superficial and easily debunked. The developers have stated that Shepard is named after Alan Shepard, the first man in space.

Actually you are incorrect good sir. jesus is called the shepard of humanity. He is never called a "fisher of men" that is what he tells his apostles he will make them. 

The most apostles jesus ever has is 12, the most squadmates shepard has is twelve. Cant you people see these things are symbolic?

I will admit that the Illusive man isnt technically a follower of shepard, but now you are saying that the illusive man doesnt betray shepard? The illusive man betrays all of humanity, much like Judas did. 

And I doubt Bioware would have gotten away with calling the crucible and crucifix, it just doesnt sound right. But those words are eerily similar, you have to admit, the similarities are there.

[Kanon777]

Controller_B wrote...

I see no real biblical allusions in Mass Effect. Shepard makes a sacrifice, but that's wholly separate from Shepard needing to be the sacrifice. Lot's of people in Mass Effect make sacrifices. Shepard isn't really any more special than any of them.

I mean you can make a shallow analysis fit anything. Moses frees people from a cycle of enslavement and shepards them to a paradise that he himself never sees. But like I said, that's shallow. Shepard isn't Moses either. Shepard isn't a savior figure or a prophet.

-Lazarus project (ressurection of the main character)
-"We are legion" (said by the main antagonist) 
-tell me more about "The Sheppard"

Sure, no biblical allusions, lol...

[ninjaNumber1]

Nuchy wrote...

Please note, this is not a religous discussion, just an observation.
 
Not sure if you are Catholic or not, if you aren't please dont take offense to this, there have just been some similiarities I've noticed between Shepard and Jesus. 

"The lord is my Shepard"
Jesus is regarded at the "shepard" of humanity, he dies for our sins on a Crucifix. 

Commander Shepard is regarded as the protector of the Galaxy, he dies for us on a Crucible.

Jesus was part God and part man
Shepard is part organic and part synthetic


Jesus had 12 apostles 
Shepard had 12 squadmates in me2

Jesus was betrayed by his friend judas and died on the cross.
Shepard was betrayed by the illusive man and died on the crucible.

Jesus rose from the dead
Shepard rose from the dead
 
 Shepard goes around the Galaxy solving problems
Jesus went around the known world solving problems

Well, you are stretching it a bit.

Judas betrayed Jesus, but Judas was one of the 12. TIM was not part of the 12 squadmates in ME2. So that is a stretch..... and not to mention, it depends on the DLC you got lol.

Jesus rose from the dead by his own power. Shepard rose from the dead thanks to TIM, Miranda, Shadow Broker, Liara and a great Cerberus staff.

Jesus was the son of God, Shepard was... well, human.

Anyway, if you mean to say that ME3 might have burrowed some elements from the story of Jesus, you will be right. There are lot of biblical references in saying "Lazarus Project" and having the leader of the fight against reaper "Shepard" which is a word play on "Shepherd".

But yea, its just these elements. Theologically speaking, you could say Shepard is an imperfect TYPE that represents Jesus (given that you played Paragon lol). To say more would be to stretch it... quiet a bit....

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 01 avril 2012 - 10:54 .

[Nuchy]

wantedman dan wrote...

Nuchy wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Nuchy wrote...

Like I said, its symbolic, how could bioware have made it to where the reapers still bother the galaxy? That would be even less satisfying then the ending we get, imagine if only the Reapers in the Sol were destroyed. lol

That's why your analogy is wrong.

My analogy? I was asking you a question???

I noticed, the point being, they can't.

Im asking you how they could! How could bioware make it to where not only do the reapers still exist, but they still pose a threat to the galaxy? 

Well lets look at the destroy ending. If the galaxy decides to make synthetics in the future, they are all screwed. 

If we decide to sin we are all screwed. ITS SYMBOLIC.

[Baronesa]

tobito113 wrote...

Ackbar vas Rannoch wrote...

I cant speak for all sci fi fans but for me the genre has always shown that religion is not necessary and is in fact a hindrance to the advancement of us as a species. As far as i can tell most species in the mass effect universe either embrace no religion at all or follow a religion that doesnt cause them to intrude or try to change the ideas of others. The thought that such an epic sci fi story would revolve around the thought of the main character being a christ like figure annoys me.

and besides....I think the sci fi community has had enough "space jesus" related content after the whole "midi chlorians induced life and then anakin died to bring balance to the force blah blah blah."

The people who hated midichlorians argued that it removed the religious aspect of the Force, and made it too scientific...

You realise that the most famous scifi in history had religious (Jedi are very devout monks) characters as heroes?

Yup... an they followed an interesting philosophy... do you realize that there are some atheistic religions like some forms of Buddhism? And that Jedi have been linkened to follow a very similar view as Buddhist?


Also, Jesus is not the only Messianic figure to had that kind of experiences.  It was a fascinating  recurring theme at that time. Mithras, Horus, Buddha, Krishna.

[eddieoctane]

ImmovableMover wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

ImmovableMover wrote...
He had 12 squad mates in ME2? Did he? I had 11. If you didn't have access to the Cerberus network you had 10.

Grunt, Zaeed, Jack, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Miranda, Samara, Thane, Kasumi, Jacob & Mordin. That's 12. If you want to pick apart arguments, at least be right.

And today's reading fail goes too...

I had 11 because I didn't pay for Kasumi's DLC

If you didn't have access to the cerberus network you had 10 - No Kasumi, No Zaeed - They were DLC

If you're going to try and be a smart ass, get the "smart" bit down before you try thre "Ass" part.

So Shepard never lost his commission for crashing an asteroid in the relay because someone didn't pay for it? Oh wait....

There were 12 squad-mates created for the game. Just because you didn't want to spend the money doesn't mean they don't exist. Face it, DLC is integral to the story. There were a total of 12 squadmates.

[RenownedRyan]

Nuchy wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Jesus Christ was a carpenter born in Nazareth. The Good Shepard was just a metaphor he used to describe himself. He also called himself a fisher of men, hence the Christ fish that we see on the back of so many vehicles. Does this mean that any protagonist named Fisher (i.e. Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell) is based on Jesus Christ?

Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' disciples. The Illusive Man is a mentor for Shepard. Also, the Illusive Man didn't really betray Shepard. That comparison doesn't make much sense.

Jesus claimed to be the son of God. Most Christians believe that he was one of the three forms of God, also known as the Holy Trinity. He was not part-God, part-man as you describe.

Jesus was executed on a Crucifix, just as all those sentenced to death in Ancient Rome were. Shepard dies onboard the Crucible. A Crucible is a word meaning a severe test or trial.

Jesus Christ had 12 disciples and Shepard did have 12 squadmates in Mass Effect 2; if the player purchased DLC. If not Shepard had only 10 squadmates. In Mass Effect 3 Shepard has 7 squadmates counting DLC. Throughout the series Shepard has 24 squadmates, counting temporary squadmates and DLC.

All of the "similarities" between Shepard and Jesus are superficial and easily debunked. The developers have stated that Shepard is named after Alan Shepard, the first man in space.

Actually you are incorrect good sir. jesus is called the shepard of humanity. He is never called a "fisher of men" that is what he tells his apostles he will make them. 

The most apostles jesus ever has is 12, the most squadmates shepard has is twelve. Cant you people see these things are symbolic?

I will admit that the Illusive man isnt technically a follower of shepard, but now you are saying that the illusive man doesnt betray shepard? The illusive man betrays all of humanity, much like Judas did. 

And I doubt Bioware would have gotten away with calling the crucible and crucifix, it just doesnt sound right. But those words are eerily similar, you have to admit, the similarities are there.

None of this changes anything.  What about the many things that make the Shepard character very different than Jesus?  He is stubborn and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done.  He kills countless people throughout the series, something that Jesus would never have advocated.  Matthew 5:39-"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."  The ultimate way to disprove this theory is pointing out that Casey Hudson stated that Shepard is named after Alan Shepard.

I would say that Jesus is a parallel to Horus.

[Kanon777]

RenownedRyan wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

I love how the anti-christianity people will keep trying to deny the obvious paralels. Lazarus project, "tell me another story about The Sheppard" line, the self sacrifice theme... Its pretty obvious they borrowed many themes from christianity in this series...

Because Jesus Christ is the only man/character in history to have sacrificed himself, right?  The Lazarus Project is an allusion to Lazarus, a man that Jesus purportedly raised from the dead.  As Shepard does not rebuild himself, this would make Miranda Lawson a Jesus parallel in your logic.  

Of all legends of sacrifice, the christian one is by far the most known. And i dont see quotes of any other religion being used in the series, so i suspect they wanted to draw paralels with christianity. Is it really that complicated to see?

(About the Lazarus story) No one said the paralels are perfect but the simple fact that the word was used is an obvious paralel the developers are trying to make, its funny how hard is it for you guys to see it.

[Zardoc]

I'd like my Shepard to be Buddha.

Modifié par Zardoc, 01 avril 2012 - 10:55 .

[lillitheris]

Yes, they obviously wanted to make a religion/mythology thing out of it.

And were surprised when they just waded straight into the water like regular people…

[wantedman dan]

Nuchy wrote...

Im asking you how they could! How could bioware make it to where not only do the reapers still exist, but they still pose a threat to the galaxy? 

Well lets look at the destroy ending. If the galaxy decides to make synthetics in the future, they are all screwed. 

If we decide to sin we are all screwed. ITS SYMBOLIC.

And I just made the point that they couldn't, lol. We're going in circles, here.

And, according to the rest of the canon, we wouldn't be screwed is we decide to make synthetics in the future. Shepard proved that.

If it's symbolic, the point being symbolized can't violate the rest of the story. This means that something along the lines--be it the means, or the ends--will not matter. By this analogy, either a) there is no heaven and what we decide to do in this life doesn't matter or there is a heaven and we will achieve it no matter what we have decided to do in this life.

[Nuchy]

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Nuchy wrote...

Please note, this is not a religous discussion, just an observation.
 
Not sure if you are Catholic or not, if you aren't please dont take offense to this, there have just been some similiarities I've noticed between Shepard and Jesus. 

"The lord is my Shepard"
Jesus is regarded at the "shepard" of humanity, he dies for our sins on a Crucifix. 

Commander Shepard is regarded as the protector of the Galaxy, he dies for us on a Crucible.

Jesus was part God and part man
Shepard is part organic and part synthetic


Jesus had 12 apostles 
Shepard had 12 squadmates in me2

Jesus was betrayed by his friend judas and died on the cross.
Shepard was betrayed by the illusive man and died on the crucible.

Jesus rose from the dead
Shepard rose from the dead
 
 Shepard goes around the Galaxy solving problems
Jesus went around the known world solving problems

Well, you are stretching it a bit.

Judas betrayed Jesus, but Judas was one of the 12. TIM was not part of the 12 squadmates in ME2. So that is a stretch..... and not to mention, it depends on the DLC you got lol.

Jesus rose from the dead by his own power. Shepard rose from the dead thanks to TIM, Miranda, Shadow Broker, Liara and a great Cerberus staff.

Jesus was the son of God, Shepard was... well, human.

Anyway, if you mean to say that ME3 might have burrowed some elements from the story of Jesus, you will be right. There are lot of biblical references in saying "Lazarus Project" and having the leader of the fight against reaper "Shepard" which is a word play on "Shepherd".

But yea, its just these elements. Theologically speaking, you could say Shepard is an imperfect TYPE that represents Jesus (given that you played Paragon lol). To say more would be to stretch it... quiet a bit....

Its symbolic! Shepard was suppose to use some more space magic to resurect himself? The bottom line is that Shepard rose from the dead and Jesus rose from the dead. Obviously the details aren't going to be the same. 

Jesus didn't wear N7 armor and go to strip clubs. But that doesnt mean shepard cant be symbolic of Jesus.

[Risselda]

Also going to mention your "right hand man" has a nickname of "Archangel"

[ninjaNumber1]

Nuchy wrote...

ninjaNumber1 wrote...

Nuchy wrote...

Please note, this is not a religous discussion, just an observation.
 
Not sure if you are Catholic or not, if you aren't please dont take offense to this, there have just been some similiarities I've noticed between Shepard and Jesus. 

"The lord is my Shepard"
Jesus is regarded at the "shepard" of humanity, he dies for our sins on a Crucifix. 

Commander Shepard is regarded as the protector of the Galaxy, he dies for us on a Crucible.

Jesus was part God and part man
Shepard is part organic and part synthetic


Jesus had 12 apostles 
Shepard had 12 squadmates in me2

Jesus was betrayed by his friend judas and died on the cross.
Shepard was betrayed by the illusive man and died on the crucible.

Jesus rose from the dead
Shepard rose from the dead
 
 Shepard goes around the Galaxy solving problems
Jesus went around the known world solving problems

Well, you are stretching it a bit.

Judas betrayed Jesus, but Judas was one of the 12. TIM was not part of the 12 squadmates in ME2. So that is a stretch..... and not to mention, it depends on the DLC you got lol.

Jesus rose from the dead by his own power. Shepard rose from the dead thanks to TIM, Miranda, Shadow Broker, Liara and a great Cerberus staff.

Jesus was the son of God, Shepard was... well, human.

Anyway, if you mean to say that ME3 might have burrowed some elements from the story of Jesus, you will be right. There are lot of biblical references in saying "Lazarus Project" and having the leader of the fight against reaper "Shepard" which is a word play on "Shepherd".

But yea, its just these elements. Theologically speaking, you could say Shepard is an imperfect TYPE that represents Jesus (given that you played Paragon lol). To say more would be to stretch it... quiet a bit....

Its symbolic! Shepard was suppose to use some more space magic to resurect himself? The bottom line is that Shepard rose from the dead and Jesus rose from the dead. Obviously the details aren't going to be the same. 

Jesus didn't wear N7 armor and go to strip clubs. But that doesnt mean shepard cant be symbolic of Jesus.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. Hence the term 'imperfect TYPE' which I believe captures what you want to say. 

[stysiaq]

Also, spacer Shepard has mother, but has no father! Coincidence? I don't think so!

[Nuchy]

RenownedRyan wrote...

Nuchy wrote...

RenownedRyan wrote...

Jesus Christ was a carpenter born in Nazareth. The Good Shepard was just a metaphor he used to describe himself. He also called himself a fisher of men, hence the Christ fish that we see on the back of so many vehicles. Does this mean that any protagonist named Fisher (i.e. Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell) is based on Jesus Christ?

Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' disciples. The Illusive Man is a mentor for Shepard. Also, the Illusive Man didn't really betray Shepard. That comparison doesn't make much sense.

Jesus claimed to be the son of God. Most Christians believe that he was one of the three forms of God, also known as the Holy Trinity. He was not part-God, part-man as you describe.

Jesus was executed on a Crucifix, just as all those sentenced to death in Ancient Rome were. Shepard dies onboard the Crucible. A Crucible is a word meaning a severe test or trial.

Jesus Christ had 12 disciples and Shepard did have 12 squadmates in Mass Effect 2; if the player purchased DLC. If not Shepard had only 10 squadmates. In Mass Effect 3 Shepard has 7 squadmates counting DLC. Throughout the series Shepard has 24 squadmates, counting temporary squadmates and DLC.

All of the "similarities" between Shepard and Jesus are superficial and easily debunked. The developers have stated that Shepard is named after Alan Shepard, the first man in space.

Actually you are incorrect good sir. jesus is called the shepard of humanity. He is never called a "fisher of men" that is what he tells his apostles he will make them. 

The most apostles jesus ever has is 12, the most squadmates shepard has is twelve. Cant you people see these things are symbolic?

I will admit that the Illusive man isnt technically a follower of shepard, but now you are saying that the illusive man doesnt betray shepard? The illusive man betrays all of humanity, much like Judas did. 

And I doubt Bioware would have gotten away with calling the crucible and crucifix, it just doesnt sound right. But those words are eerily similar, you have to admit, the similarities are there.

None of this changes anything.  What about the many things that make the Shepard character very different than Jesus?  He is stubborn and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done.  He kills countless people throughout the series, something that Jesus would never have advocated.  Matthew 5:39-"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."  The ultimate way to disprove this theory is pointing out that Casey Hudson stated that Shepard is named after Alan Shepard.

I would say that Jesus is a parallel to Horus.

LMFAO seriously guys, what dont you get about the word symbolic? ITS A VIDEO GAME, you think that shepard shouldnt use a gun to fight evil? ITS SYMBOLIC

I dont think a video game where you reason with the reapers would be very fun, so please stop hiding behind things like: 

OHH but if you dont buy extra DLC then you only have 10 squadmates!!!!
OHHH but Shepard uses guns! 

Seriously its annoying and you're missing the point

[ninjaNumber1]

RenownedRyan wrote...

I would say that Jesus is a parallel to Horus.

Woah, hold on their a bit

Perhaps you would want to consider the actual historical problems with such an accusation as well. To neglect those problems and assume that Jewish Christians embraced a Pagan Horus myth would require you to believe that similar results must neccessarily originate from same causes. But such a neccessity does not exists and therefore such reasoning would be fallacious.

Just thought I'd add that

P.S. Something to note is that the Divinity of the Pagan characters and the Divinity of Jesus are very much different. The only reason many fall in to this fallacious theory is because they do not have much of an understanding of the Theological attributes of Jesus's Divinity.

Modifié par ninjaNumber1, 01 avril 2012 - 11:05 .