1536 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

One of the things that I find interesting is that when we perceive bisexuality in characters, we immediate label those characters as bi. At no point in the game does any companion or NPC declare themselves to be or fit any particular label, category, adjective, etc. It's not a topic of conversation. It's not something discussed or inquired after. So for all we know, they may not see themselves along those lines. Just because someone was in a relationship with another person of the same gender does not necessarily mean that (s)he sees his/herself as bisexual. It's up to the individual to define themselves, as they see fit and if (s)he so chooses.

We're left to make assumptions. If Isabela makes references to lovers of both genders, our tendency is to say "ah, yes, bisexual." If Anders admits to (hints at) a relationship with Karl, we feel inclined to think "ah, yes, bisexual." If we do multiple playthroughs and play a Hawke of either gender and romance all of the romancable companions, and can do so successfully, we can nod and say "ah, yes, bisexual." But again, none of those companions ever states that they see themselves as such.

I don't think that perceived bisexuality cheapens the companions, because 1. it's perceived, and 2. they are all much more than their sexual identity/sexuality. Each had a unique backstory, each has quirks and qualities, each has likes and dislikes, etc. Those elements are the focal points of any dialogue because those may be more prevalent in their lives (much moreso than who they happen to bed). Their willingness to embrace a relationship with Hawke regardless of gender does not diminish who they are - it may simply mean that they are responding to the sum of who Hawke is, either regardless or inclusive of his/her gender.

When we look at romance - at the feelings involved, the pursuit of the person of affection, the willingness to move heaven and earth, cherubs singing, etc etc. - it's not really about the person's gender first and foremost (or at all). It's about what that person, that soul, does to us - that spark, that zing, that thrill, that ache. The essence of romance is about the heart, no?

This whole thing is just.. so awesome.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Thedas doesn't so much have a hive-mind as it simply does not have the social constraints, restrictions and prejudices of our world. Huzzah to that! There are enough concerns in Thedas to warrant potential obstacles in couplings - race relations (elves, humans, dwarves, etc) and class relations. Why should Thedas, in general, turn up its collective nose at two women who are involved with each other, or two men who share a tent? Where is the logic, the justification for this sort of tension to exist?

I'm not sure about this though. As players who understand that games are developed with a number of factors in mind: budget, resource management, mass appeal, marketing, and so on; at what point do we step outside the "world" of Thedas and go back to game development and say that the creators made a decision to have the romances be in such a way as a game mechanic, which is not necessarily a reflection of how Theodesians feel about the issue in general.

I feel that Bioware is a very open minded company when it comes to such issues, so it's certainly not unlikely that they would develop a world to reflect that. However, we don't really know if that is the case or not, since the only people we ever see referring to sexual orientation in any way are the companions themselves and never from any outside sources (ie other NPCs). And too, other than everyone's favorite blacksmith and his partner, and Branka/Hespith, I can't think of a single instance of a same-sex relationship anywhere else in the whole series that does not involve our immediate PC or companions. (The Calling also features Grey Wardens Julien and Nicolas, but I'm not sure if non-game material counts in this instance.)

My point is that we don't really know how Thedas is as a whole because there aren't any instances of straight people noticing a s/s relationship and either going "Ew / Oh, Maker, sin!" OR "Ho-hum, just some random couple," or anything else to gauge the tolerance level by.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[Dejajeva]

Id like to know why Sebastian being bi would go against all he is. Do you consider this a religious issue? Because Chantry =/= Christianity. There may be similarities but I just head canon that the Chantry is down with the gay. They have more important things to worry about like mages. Its a made up religious organization and maybe andraste experimented in her 20s so to her its a non issue. Lol.

[Rachey187]

It's not necessarily a religious issue, that may have something to do with it, regardless of it being a made up religion. It just doesn't seem right. It's hard to explain. With Anders, Isabella, Leliana, Zevran... it all seemed right. But with Alistair and Sebastian.. i don't know, it just doesn't. Like i said, i have nothing against bisexuality in the characters, it's great that Bioware have implemented them, i just don't understand why every character has to be openly available to everyone. There's enough diversity for everyone in the companions for everyone to be happy as it is...

[whykikyouwhy]

nightscrawl wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Thedas doesn't so much have a hive-mind as it simply does not have the social constraints, restrictions and prejudices of our world. Huzzah to that! There are enough concerns in Thedas to warrant potential obstacles in couplings - race relations (elves, humans, dwarves, etc) and class relations. Why should Thedas, in general, turn up its collective nose at two women who are involved with each other, or two men who share a tent? Where is the logic, the justification for this sort of tension to exist?

I'm not sure about this though. As players who understand that games are developed with a number of factors in mind: budget, resource management, mass appeal, marketing, and so on; at what point do we step outside the "world" of Thedas and go back to game development and say that the creators made a decision to have the romances be in such a way as a game mechanic, which is not necessarily a reflection of how Theodesians feel about the issue in general.

I feel that Bioware is a very open minded company when it comes to such issues, so it's certainly not unlikely that they would develop a world to reflect that. However, we don't really know if that is the case or not, since the only people we ever see referring to sexual orientation in any way are the companions themselves and never from any outside sources (ie other NPCs). And too, other than everyone's favorite blacksmith and his partner, and Branka/Hespith, I can't think of a single instance of a same-sex relationship anywhere else in the whole series that does not involve our immediate PC or companions. (The Calling also features Grey Wardens Julien and Nicolas, but I'm not sure if non-game material counts in this instance.)

My point is that we don't really know how Thedas is as a whole because there aren't any instances of straight people noticing a s/s relationship and either going "Ew / Oh, Maker, sin!" OR "Ho-hum, just some random couple," or anything else to gauge the tolerance level by.

Your last paragraph was more or less the point I was going for (but it hadn't been too long since I woke up, the coffee was still trying to work its magic, etc and so forth). Prejudices based on sexual identity/sexuality have not been apparent. We don't know much about the relationships of anyone outside of the PC's circle and some nobility we encounter, but there isn't anything that blatantly casts a shadow upon same-sex couples. Which isn't to say that those prejudices don't exist, but one would think that the goings-on of the Hero!Warden (someone with name recognition and influence, someone a lot of people know of) would get some attention and we'd hear some backlash, if backlash was to exist. If anything, we just catch the sense of something akin to the gossip rags (like the rumor you overhear in the Circle concerning the Warden, a pirate captain and nugs).

Certainly, the Grey Wardens haven't pulled the PC aside and given him/her a stern talking to and a threat of being kicked out of the Order for his/her s/s dalliances with a bard or an assassin. So that's a nice touch. 

Rachey187 wrote...

It's not necessarily a religious issue, that may have something to do with it, regardless of it being a made up religion. It just doesn't seem right. It's hard to explain. With Anders, Isabella, Leliana, Zevran... it all seemed right. But with Alistair and Sebastian.. i don't know, it just doesn't. Like i said, i have nothing against bisexuality in the characters, it's great that Bioware have implemented them, i just don't understand why every character has to be openly available to everyone. There's enough diversity for everyone in the companions for everyone to be happy as it is...

 
With regard to this, I'm curious as to what sort of characteristics are indicative of bisexuality that would not fall in line with Alistair or Morrigan, or how, were they to indentify as such, that would conflict with who we know them to be. While I can say that yes, I am personally aware of my sexual identity/sexuality, it's not always a conscious awareness - I don't always think "as a lesbian." I think as me. The sum total of me. Which happens to include being a lesbian. I don't know that gayness pokes out much in my personality on a day to day basis (not as much as my geekiness does, that's for certain). 

Alistair and Morrigan would strike me both as rather private when it comes to matters of the bedroom, so that aspect of themselves - who they choose to romance/love/have relations with - probably wouldn't be something that comes up in conversation much, unless when chatting with their most trusted friends (and with Morrigan, probably at a desperate moment of needing to say or ask something). Alistair, bi or not, is always going to be a bit bumbling, heroic, and in love with cheese. 

The availability of all LIs to a PC of any gender is really a way to focus on more of that sum total of the companion personality, versus the gender aspect.

[Dejajeva]

I get what you're saying, but let's say your a gay male.

In DA2- there were 8 companions. Five are male. Can't romance Carver because that'd be gross. So we're down to four choices. Nix out Varric because he's non-romance-able. So that's three. Then nix out Seb, because he's straight. So you're down to two choices. The needs-major-therapy Anders, and hates-all-magic-and-everything-else Fenris. So while there is a lot of diversity amongst characters, there really isn't THAT many choices for gay and lesbians to choose from, not when it's broken down like this. That's why I feel limiting it even more would be detrimental.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to show why in my opinion limiting the sexuality of characters (which doesn't even come up in the game) is limiting in a bad way. I think the real problem is people are still uncomfortable with sexuality and real life prejudices get in the way to enjoying the game. And I'm not pointing anyone out at all or accusing. But I know some people who were totally weirded out by Anders flirting with them in-game. And that's not a game problem, that's a society problem.

But that's getting preachy.

You should read some of the fanfic I've read about Sebastian- may change your mind about his sexuality.

[the_one_54321]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
One of the things that I find interesting is that when we perceive bisexuality in characters, we immediate label those characters as bi. At no point in the game does any companion or NPC declare themselves to be or fit any particular label, category, adjective, etc. It's not a topic of conversation. It's not something discussed or inquired after. So for all we know, they may not see themselves along those lines. Just because someone was in a relationship with another person of the same gender does not necessarily mean that (s)he sees his/herself as bisexual. It's up to the individual to define themselves, as they see fit and if (s)he so chooses.

We're left to make assumptions. If Isabela makes references to lovers of both genders, our tendency is to say "ah, yes, bisexual." If Anders admits to (hints at) a relationship with Karl, we feel inclined to think "ah, yes, bisexual." If we do multiple playthroughs and play a Hawke of either gender and romance all of the romancable companions, and can do so successfully, we can nod and say "ah, yes, bisexual." But again, none of those companions ever states that they see themselves as such.

I don't think that perceived bisexuality cheapens the companions, because 1. it's perceived, and 2. they are all much more than their sexual identity/sexuality. Each had a unique backstory, each has quirks and qualities, each has likes and dislikes, etc. Those elements are the focal points of any dialogue because those may be more prevalent in their lives (much moreso than who they happen to bed). Their willingness to embrace a relationship with Hawke regardless of gender does not diminish who they are - it may simply mean that they are responding to the sum of who Hawke is, either regardless or inclusive of his/her gender.

When we look at romance - at the feelings involved, the pursuit of the person of affection, the willingness to move heaven and earth, cherubs singing, etc etc. - it's not really about the person's gender first and foremost (or at all). It's about what that person, that soul, does to us - that spark, that zing, that thrill, that ache. The essence of romance is about the heart, no?

You do realize that almost all of this is completely unrelated to the point being contested, don't you? I don't really care about personal self understanding and the implications of societal labels. It's completely unrelated to the topic. This is a game. Words have definitions.

If someone has a sexual attraction to both men and women, that is bisexuality. By definition. If the person views him/herself in some different way, that's fantastic, but I don't care. If the character establishes an attraction to both men and women, then we have an established character. If the character prompts you to express an interest and then talks about being into your gender (Anders) then we have a sexuality neutral variable. That's not a character and for some it breaks immersion.

Dejajeva wrote...
In DA2- there were 8 companions. Five are male. Can't romance Carver because that'd be gross. So we're down to four choices. Nix out Varric because he's non-romance-able. So that's three. Then nix out Seb, because he's straight. So you're down to two choices. The needs-major-therapy Anders, and hates-all-magic-and-everything-else Fenris. So while there is a lot of diversity amongst characters, there really isn't THAT many choices for gay and lesbians to choose from, not when it's broken down like this. That's why I feel limiting it even more would be detrimental.

I agree completely. However, I feel the trade-off is important and that what is gained is greater than what is lost. I want characters that are given more attention over the entirety of the story. That means more attention from the writers, and more time spent writing them. That means less time for other things, and fewer options. My stance is quality over quantity, even if it means I might be stuck with someone I'm not terribly fond of in the end.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 03:49 .

[whykikyouwhy]

the_one_54321 wrote...

You do realize that almost all of this is completely unrelated to the point being contested, don't you? I don't really care about personal self understanding and the implications of societal labels. It's completely unrelated to the topic. This is a game. Words have definitions.

If someone has a sexual attraction to both men and women, that is bisexuality. By definition. If the person views him/herself in some different way, that's fantastic, but I don't care. If the character establishes an attraction to both men and women, then we have an established character. If the character prompts you to express an interest and then talks about being into your gender (Anders) then we have a sexuality neutral variable. That's not a character and for some it breaks immersion.

How a person, or character, identifies his/herself is somewhat relevant to to the topic actually, because some have posted that the existence and availability of four bisexual LIs "cheapens" those characters. But it's really us, as players, putting a label to these characters - a label based on our understanding of what bisexual may mean, or how we interpret what a character has relayed to us in dialogue. But that doesn't necessarily define the character, certainly not as a whole. Without knowing all of the elements of a character's backstory (which we don't, for any companion or NPC), we can only base our awareness and understanding of who that person is on what we know thus far, and even then, only if we have followed certain dialogue paths/options. For example (**slight spoiler), you only hear about Isabela's husband or Anders and Karl if you handle those segments of dialogue a certain way. 

I realize that for some, it breaks immersion, or seems unrealistic for all of the LIs to be seemingly bisexual. My point is that it's not all that unrealistic, and as a game mechanic, it's probably done to allow for greater range of role-playing - romance based on a more well-rounded sense of character personality. But, imo (and granted, it may just be my opinion), that perceived bisexuality does not cheapen or take away from the other wonderful aspects of these rather rich characters. Being potentially bisexual does not equate to some lessening of that character core.

But I don't really want to compare Merriam-Webster entries here.  

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Well, Alistair was a virgin in all sense of the word. He didn't talk about his past with ladies because he didn't have a past with ladies.

Of course...which is my point.  If you have a bisexual person in a similar situation, it's ridiculous to expect them to talk about a non-existent history.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
Not that you don't have a point. You most certainly do. Not everyone should brag about their sexual conquests. I certainly don't.

Right...Isabela does b/c she's Isabela, not because she's 'bisexual'.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Now, I imagine the conversation is also talking about "Should all romances be bi from now on?" as was commonplace on a few threads in the past. Am I correct in thinking that?

Well, that's what I'm concerned with at least.  I'd like to have the ability to pick the person I like the best for my PC...something that hetero-PCs always enjoy.  No 'realism' or 'character integrity' arguments cut it for me as the romances have never held up to this.

[the_one_54321]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
You do realize that almost all of this is completely unrelated to the point being contested, don't you? I don't really care about personal self understanding and the implications of societal labels. It's completely unrelated to the topic. This is a game. Words have definitions.

If someone has a sexual attraction to both men and women, that is bisexuality. By definition. If the person views him/herself in some different way, that's fantastic, but I don't care. If the character establishes an attraction to both men and women, then we have an established character. If the character prompts you to express an interest and then talks about being into your gender (Anders) then we have a sexuality neutral variable. That's not a character and for some it breaks immersion.

How a person, or character, identifies his/herself is somewhat relevant to to the topic actually, because some have posted that the existence and availability of four bisexual LIs "cheapens" those characters. But it's really us, as players, putting a label to these characters - a label based on our understanding of what bisexual may mean, or how we interpret what a character has relayed to us in dialogue. But that doesn't necessarily define the character, certainly not as a whole. Without knowing all of the elements of a character's backstory (which we don't, for any companion or NPC), we can only base our awareness and understanding of who that person is on what we know thus far, and even then, only if we have followed certain dialogue paths/options. For example (**slight spoiler), you only hear about Isabela's husband or Anders and Karl if you handle those segments of dialogue a certain way. 

I realize that for some, it breaks immersion, or seems unrealistic for all of the LIs to be seemingly bisexual. My point is that it's not all that unrealistic, and as a game mechanic, it's probably done to allow for greater range of role-playing - romance based on a more well-rounded sense of character personality. But, imo (and granted, it may just be my opinion), that perceived bisexuality does not cheapen or take away from the other wonderful aspects of these rather rich characters. Being potentially bisexual does not equate to some lessening of that character core.

But I don't really want to compare Merriam-Webster entries here.

The issue is not one of the probability of bisexuality. It is the fact that they never demonstrate bisexuality. They are not actually bisexual. They are redefined based on the gender of Hawke, every time you start a new game. Anders isn't bisexual. He talks about having sex with men only if Hawke is a man. And so on, and so on, with the exception of Isabela that has talked about liking it both ways since DA:O.

jlb524 wrote...
Of course...which is my point.  If you have a bisexual person in a similar situation, it's ridiculous to expect them to talk about a non-existent history.

It doesn't need to be about history. It could be a self discovery thing. Or... well... anything! The point is that there is something that definitively establishes the character. Then it wouldn't be a problem. Then he wouldn't be just a variable place-holder.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[n2nw]

Dejajeva wrote...

I get what you're saying, but let's say your a gay male.

In DA2- there were 8 companions. Five are male. Can't romance Carver because that'd be gross. So we're down to four choices. Nix out Varric because he's non-romance-able. So that's three. Then nix out Seb, because he's straight. So you're down to two choices. The needs-major-therapy Anders, and hates-all-magic-and-everything-else Fenris. So while there is a lot of diversity amongst characters, there really isn't THAT many choices for gay and lesbians to choose from, not when it's broken down like this. That's why I feel limiting it even more would be detrimental.

You can have Sebastian. The only straight male was a self-righteous, arrogant, spoiled jerk. Not to mention, he was an add-on. In Vanilla DA2, straight women only had 2 choices as well.

What I'll say is that I don't want to be slapped in the face with anyone's sexuality (straight or not) unless it suits the character.  Zevran and Isabella had that type of personality...if fit them to be open about who they were.  If an NPC never brings up, "Hey, I like both girls and boys...how about you?", I don't see a problem.  I never would have known Fenris was bisexual if I hadn't read about it.  I probably could have guessed at Anders' orientation, but I could still pretend he was straight if I wanted to do so.  IRL, would you know someone was bisexual unless you asked (unless, of course, they're very open about it)?  If they never told you about it and you fell in love, would it ever matter? 

I think this system (don't ask, don't tell??  ) works well for games.  If someone wants to believe an NPC is bisexual, they can.  If someone wants to believe an NPC is straight...they can.  Nothing lost, everyone can romance the cute guy/girl they like.

And I don't care so much about the bisexuality of the romanceable characters as I do the *content* of those romances. I'd be happy with one (okay, maybe 2) really good, in-depth romances...whether or not that person is bisexual really won't matter to my PC.  As I said, if my LI is into *me*, why do I care what was in their past?

What I want is a romance that has plenty of interaction:  discussions and tender moments with the LI, discussions with other NPCs re the LI, NPC discussions between each other re the PC and the LI, and TLC from the LI in difficult moments in the game. I don't mind if they have some baggage so long as they're not damaged. I don't want to "fix" anyone. Helping them through would be okay (angst can be good), so long as it's a reciprocated act. The protagonist goes through a lot. I want a shoulder sometimes, too, and not just for 2 seconds.  I want depth, I want feeling, I want to romance and be romanced (giving gifts, sharing stories, stolen moments, and personal quests).

I want it all, and I want it NOW.  Please and thank you, Bioware.

[the_one_54321]

n2nw wrote...
IRL, would you know someone was bisexual unless you asked (unless, of course, they're very open about it)?  If they never told you about it and you fell in love, would it ever matter?

I don't think you've thought this through.... Have you ever had to explain to a gay woman that you didn't swing that way? I've had to explain to gay men that I didn't want to kiss them goodnight. (not that it was a problem, getting hit on by gay men is very flattering, but I don't swing that way) Hasen't anyone ever had to wonder if the girl or guy they were into was also into girls/guys? These things do come up in conversation. It's not a stretch to say "hey, if this is the way they are written, why doesn't it ever come up?" 

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 04:43 .

[Johnny Jaded]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

How a person, or character, identifies his/herself is somewhat relevant to to the topic actually, because some have posted that the existence and availability of four bisexual LIs "cheapens" those characters. But it's really us, as players, putting a label to these characters 

As the_one has stated more than once: with the exception of Isabela, these characters aren't actually bisexual - they're PC-sexual.

Izzy is established as bi from when she is first spoken to in Origins and that's expanded upon in DA2 with her nonchalant attitude towards sex and pleasure. She mentions her husband regardless of what gender Hawke is as long as the right dialogue option is chosen.

Contrast that with Anders: in Awakening, it's established that he likes women - "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - he says this regardless of the Warden's gender, yet he only mentions Karl as a lover to a male Hawke. If he was genuinely bisexual like Isabela (as opposed to merely PC-sexual), why would he not confide that fact to a female Hawke, especially one who was in friendly romance with him? That piece of information is just as relevant to a female Hawke as it is to a male simply by being a part of his past.

Modifié par Johnny Jaded, 03 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[the_one_54321]

jlb524 wrote...
I'm not sure what you mean.

In FFVII, a game released over a decade ago, the romance between the main characters was central to the story. But if you did certain things during the game, it never happens and the story progresses slightly differently.This is the proper approach. If you do things that someone doesn't like, they won't like you.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

[Olive Oomph]

let's see:
- keep the gender check away from romances, exploring consequences of sexual orientation is not something the game needs, it should remain irrelevant and free choice is more important. Focusing on other character traits to integrate them into the story, doesn't cheapen anyone, it's quite tiresome, when your orientation becomes the most important thing about you and I don't wish that to happen to the characters.
- we finally need a female warrior for a LI, fierce and strong, preferably not a law abiding soldier/guard captain, someone adventurous and wild, a blood-thirsty reaver!
- an existing character, that I wouldn't mind returnng as a companion and LI is Ariane from Witch Hunt, Tallis also and Cassandra
- if you cast a VA for a completely new character and LI, I urge you to consider Wendy Braun. Ever since playing Dragon Age and Mass Effect, I have become creepishly obsessed with that voice and I want to hear it say dirty romantic things to my pc xD

Modifié par Olive Oomph, 03 avril 2012 - 05:02 .

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'm not sure what you mean.

In FFVII, a game released over a decade ago, the romance between the main characters was central to the story. But if you did certain things during the game, it never happens and the story progresses slightly differently.

You talking about how you could take Aeris, Tiffa or Barret to amusement park ? 

[the_one_54321]

BobSmith101 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'm not sure what you mean.

In FFVII, a game released over a decade ago, the romance between the main characters was central to the story. But if you did certain things during the game, it never happens and the story progresses slightly differently.

You talking about how you could take Aeris, Tiffa or Barret to amusement park ? 

Or Yuffie. It's a pretty huge consequence, when contrasted against the volume of choice you actually have in the game. And it makes the difference between "Aeris is a lover" and "Aeris is a dear friend." 

[Maria Caliban]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

One of the things that I find interesting is that when we perceive bisexuality in characters, we immediate label those characters as bi. At no point in the game does any companion or NPC declare themselves to be or fit any particular label, category, adjective, etc. It's not a topic of conversation. It's not something discussed or inquired after. So for all we know, they may not see themselves along those lines. Just because someone was in a relationship with another person of the same gender does not necessarily mean that (s)he sees his/herself as bisexual. It's up to the individual to define themselves, as they see fit and if (s)he so chooses.

I also consider blonde haired, blue-eyed, fair skinned Alister white. Why? Because that's the way the game has presented him.

If there's an alternative view of sexual orientation in Thedas, that's fine, but none has been presented in the game. Individuals in the real world can define themselves as they see fit. Characters can't do that because they don't exist.

It's possible that Isabela considers herself a psychosexual hermaphrodite*. It's also possible she considers herself a liberal anarchist. Nothing in the game indicates this one way or another, so we're left to interpret the characters through our own cultural paradigms.

VampOrchid wrote...

Although I am all for the bi options in the game (even though I don't use it) I can't see Morrigan or Alistair going both ways.

Prior to Dragon Age: Origins release, the vast majority of people thought Morrigan was bisexual and Leliana was straight.

Morrigan, after all, was the sexy, manipulative, and amoral one while Leliana was the good, pious Chantry sister.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 03 avril 2012 - 05:11 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

How a person, or character, identifies his/herself is somewhat relevant to to the topic actually, because some have posted that the existence and availability of four bisexual LIs "cheapens" those characters. But it's really us, as players, putting a label to these characters 

As the_one has stated more than once: with the exception of Isabela, these characters aren't actually bisexual - they're PC-sexual.

Izzy is established as bi from when she is first spoken to in Origins and that's expanded upon in DA2 with her nonchalant attitude towards sex and pleasure. She mentions her husband regardless of what gender Hawke is as long as the right dialogue option is chosen.

Contrast that with Anders: in Awakening, it's established that he likes women - "All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools." - he says this regardless of the Warden's gender, yet he only mentions Karl as a lover to a male Hawke. If he was genuinely bisexual like Isabela (as opposed to merely PC-sexual), why would he not confide that fact to a female Hawke, especially one who was in friendly romance with him? That piece of information is just as relevant to a female Hawke as it is to a male simply by being a part of his past.

I'd wager that those who may see the availability of the LIs for a Hawke of either gender might still feel that being "Hawke-sexual" cheapens them. Which is the point I was addressing. The cheapening.

What is established in-game is again based mostly on our perceptions. Isabela's "nonchalant attitude" towards sex does not necessarily make her bisexual in how she identifies herself, but in how we might identify her. And while it can be argued that how she sees herself does not matter, I place some value in that (be she fictional or not) because how she sees herself is vital for her whole character - and resonates in her conversations with the other companions.

I don't know that it would be fair to say that Anders is not "genuinely" bisexual. Admission of past love affairs is not some sort of litmus test, is it? While I recognize that for some it may be important, and perhaps necessary, that the companions make broad declarations of who they are, that doesn't seem likely based on their personalities. Fenris, for instance, is probably not going to say much about his past. There's not really a flag to wave saying "hey, I'm bi. Or hey, you're Hawke so I'm interested in you." other than to chat them up, and follow the prompts for a romance path. Which, is much the way that romances work IRL - you take an interest in someone, you talk with them, you gauge their reactions/interest, you proceed. Based on the persons you and your interst are, maybe you'll talk about past lovers in detail, maybe not.

As for why Karl is not mentioned to a female Hawke, I don't know. Sure, it's relevant but maybe it has more to do with Anders' comfort level. That would be a question for a dev.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Completely agree with OP on all points made.

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
I'm not sure what you mean.

In FFVII, a game released over a decade ago, the romance between the main characters was central to the story. But if you did certain things during the game, it never happens and the story progresses slightly differently.

You talking about how you could take Aeris, Tiffa or Barret to amusement park ? 

Or Yuffie. It's a pretty huge consequence, when contrasted against the volume of choice you actually have in the game. And it makes the difference between "Aeris is a lover" and "Aeris is a dear friend." 

Yuffie was news to me. I've played the game 7 of 8 times too  Barret I remember because I almost came to blows when a friend said Cloud was gay.

SquareEnix do a good job of creating females I like.

[hussey 92]

Maria Caliban wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...


It's cool to have bi and gay characters, but in reality most people are straight

Reality also has more than four possible people to romance.

I agree, DA3 should have 60 more romance options

[the_one_54321]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I'd wager that those who may see the availability of the LIs for a Hawke of either gender might still feel that being "Hawke-sexual" cheapens them. Which is the point I was addressing. The cheapening.

Being Hawke-sexual cheapens the character. Because it's no longer a character, but a fill-in-the-blank.

If the character was written and established as bisexual, it wouldn't be cheap. All they need to do is talk about it, at some point, for some reason. It's not such a big stretch.

BobSmith101 wrote...
Yuffie was news to me. I've played the game 7 of 8 times too Barret I remember because I almost came to blows when a friend said Cloud was gay.

SquareEnix do a good job of creating females I like.

I thoguht the progression was Aeris - Tiffa (if you did some stuff) - Yuffie (if you also did other stuff) - Barret (if you did all that stuff but didn't have Yuffie in the party)

I could be mistaken.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 05:20 .

[Maria Caliban]

hussey 92 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

hussey 92 wrote...


It's cool to have bi and gay characters, but in reality most people are straight

Reality also has more than four possible people to romance.

I agree, DA3 should have 60 more romance options

I don't think your second clause is dependent on your first. Are you mocking me with your punctuation?