1536 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...
He still is the same character, regardless of missed information by the player/PC.

Liking raspberries doesn't make much of a difference to a romance story. Sexual preference, on the other hand...

We already had the "favorite ice cream flavor" analogy. If an aspect of the character is important to that character's story, it should come up in the dialog. Sexuality is important to the romance story.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 09:31 .

[Maugrim]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Deviija wrote...
He still is the same character, regardless of missed information by the player/PC.

Liking raspberries doesn't make much of a difference to a romance story. Sexual preference, on the other hand...

It's not on the other hand.

[the_one_54321]

makenzieshepard wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Deviija wrote...
He still is the same character, regardless of missed information by the player/PC.

Liking raspberries doesn't make much of a difference to a romance story. Sexual preference, on the other hand...

It's not on the other hand.

I'm not going to let this go in a circle and confuse the issue.

If a character is going to be part of a romance, whether or not that character is attracted to your gender is important. If s/he isn't, then you can't really have a romance.

If a character is attracted to a gender, the character should always be attracted to that gender(single, multiple or otherwise), regardless of what gender the PC is in any given playthrough.

A character should never fall apart during a seperate playthrough. This breaks the ability to accept the character as a character. (for some of us, it's fairly important)

dillpickle713 wrote...
I want longer and deeper relationships.

I agree.
*shorter to copy and edit than make a new post.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 09:40 .

[dillpickle713]

Great Ideas.

I want longer and deeper relationships.

[esper]

Deviija wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's the exact same concept!!!

Either the character is always the same character, or the character is a variable. It applies to all aspects of the character. All aspects.

It is the same character.  You are just expecting to be told/shown something no matter what dialogue or path you take.  That Anders tells my SnarkyHawke he loves raspberries, while my DiplomaticHawke never sees that dialogue... it doesn't make it variable.  It makes it a missed response due to dialogue choices.  Anders can still love raspberries, my DiplomaticHawke just may never know about it.  And it doesn't have anything important to do with anything unless we're having tea and pastries with raspberries. 

He still is the same character, regardless of missed information by the player/PC. 

I find this discussion funny. Replied to real life it means that I am being a swallow person wihtout depth because I am not going out and telling all my friends, and perhaps those few I like a little more than friends that I am bi-sexual.

Honestly it didn't come up because no one never asked. None of our Hawke asks about the Li sexuality expect male Hawke towards Anders perhaps, so it makes sense that only Isabella who talks about sex all the bloody time brings it up. 

[Direwolf0294]

dillpickle713 wrote...

Great Ideas.

I want longer and deeper relationships.

That's what she said.

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Deviija wrote...
He still is the same character, regardless of missed information by the player/PC.

Liking raspberries doesn't make much of a difference to a romance story. Sexual preference, on the other hand...

It's not on the other hand.

I'm not going to let this go in a circle and confuse the issue.

If a character is going to be part of a romance, whether or not that character is attracted to your gender is important. If s/he isn't, then you can't really have a romance.

If a character is attracted to a gender, the character should always be attracted to that gender(single, multiple or otherwise), regardless of what gender the PC is in any given playthrough.

A character should never fall apart during a seperate playthrough. This breaks the ability to accept the character as a character. (for some of us, it's fairly important)

dillpickle713 wrote...
I want longer and deeper relationships.

I agree.
*shorter to copy and edit than make a new post.

The character expressing interest in you is a pretty big hint that they are interested in your gender. You don't get it bigger. Just because they don't say btw. I like men too, doesn't break them as a characther. They just don't give you that information for whatever reasons. That is perfectly understanable.
 
And the characther doesn't break because they are not a hundred procent the same in each play through. This is a game, variables are part of the experience. Is story is an alternate world in comparison to the one beofore, and I am perfectly aware of playing make believe fantasy hero in it. If I want to get the girl in it, why shouldn't I be allowed to do so?

Edit to make myself clearer: Why should I be allowed to do so as long as the game in is seperate playthrough doesn't break. My Hawkes couldn't care less that there are Anders' and Merrill's in other peole universes that is sleeping with male Hawke, because male Hawke doesn't exist in theirs. And in theirs universe each story as far as romance go makes internally perfect sense. That is all the consistency a characther needs.

Modifié par esper, 03 avril 2012 - 09:50 .

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
The character expressing interest in you is a pretty big hint that they are interested in your gender. You don't get it bigger. Just because they don't say btw. I like men too, doesn't break them as a characther. They just don't give you that information for whatever reasons. That is perfectly understanable.

That's mostly reasonable until it becomes a glaring difference in separate playthroughs. I'm not saying that every character should be as overtly and blatantly sexual as Isabela. One simple instance of an included detail in conversation, that is consistent for every version of the PC, would fix things up nicely by establishing the character.

esper wrote...
This is a game, variables are part of the experience.

The variables are fun when they are properly hidden. Characters, inversely, should never be variable. A person should be the same person every time you meet him/her for the first time.

esper wrote...
Edit to make myself clearer: Why should I be allowed to do so as long as the game in is seperate playthrough doesn't break. My Hawkes couldn't care less that there are Anders' and Merrill's in other peole universes that is sleeping with male Hawke, because male Hawke doesn't exist in theirs. And in theirs universe each story as far as romance go makes internally perfect sense. That is all the consistency a characther needs.

This works for you. It does not work for me. I find out that the character acts as fill-in-the-blank, and from then on the character is ruined for me.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 09:57 .

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

Well, that's what I'm concerned with at least.  I'd like to have the ability to pick the person I like the best for my PC...something that hetero-PCs always enjoy.  No 'realism' or 'character integrity' arguments cut it for me as the romances have never held up to this.

For me, it's as I said a few pages back. If all romances are going to be bisexual for the sake of allowing any PC to romance them -- barring a few exceptions like Sebastian I imagine -- then at least two things need to happen for me to accept it, even if I don't like the idea in and of itself.

1) NPC romances of varying types: Gay, straight, or bi. Fling or serious relationship -- the former seems the most likely to occur. And I'd rather it not be restricted to brothels like DAII did. At least this way, the world doesn't seem like everyone is predominantly bisexual, from my point of view. For me, it strains my credulity. It may not do that for other people, and that's fine.

But we do have a few hints here and there that same-sex pairings aren't that well liked. Maria Caliban pointed out Zevrans comment about how Antiva looks down upon men sleeping with other men.

I would also expect noble families to take issue with their only child being interested in someone of the same gender, shooting down any proposition of sex from someone of the opposite gender.

2) Better differences in the romance other then a pronoun swap.

But I'd also add...

3) The romances can't be PC-sexual. DAII made a good case for the companions not being PC-sexual only, as I gave the reason for that before.

Now, this doesn't mean that the companions need to brag about their past. But there should at least be some hints that their orientation isn't defined by the player.

Like Anders. He says in Awakening he wants a pretty girl. That carries over to DAII. In DAII, we find out that he had a relationship with Karl.

So we know that his orientation isn't defined by the PC and he didn't brag about his past.

Merrill even acknowledges that Tallis is pretty. One could take that to mean that she'd be attracted to her, were Merrill not romancing Hawke. One could just as easily take it to mean she's just stating that she's pretty, and nothing more.

the_one_54321 wrote...

I read it.

In Awakening he wants a girl.

In DAII he wants a Hawke. The transitions is pretty plain to see.

You read it. You apparently didn't comprehend it.

In Awakening we find out he'd like a pretty girl. In DAII, we find out about his relationship with Karl. In DAII, we find out that he had sex with Isabela at one point in time.

It's very clearly established that Anders is bisexual, not Hawkesexual.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 avril 2012 - 10:02 .

[the_one_54321]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's very clearly established that Anders is bisexual, not Hawkesexual.

What's clearly established is that Anders was rewritten for the story requirements of DAII.

Like everything else that happened before DAII but is referenced in DAII. But this is a much larger problem with the game than just in the way it affects romance with Anders.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
The character expressing interest in you is a pretty big hint that they are interested in your gender. You don't get it bigger. Just because they don't say btw. I like men too, doesn't break them as a characther. They just don't give you that information for whatever reasons. That is perfectly understanable.

That's mostly reasonable until it becomes a glaring difference in separate playthroughs. I'm not saying that every character should be as overtly and blatantly sexual as Isabela. One simple instance of an included detail in conversation, that is consistent for every version of the PC, would fix things up nicely by establishing the character.

esper wrote...
This is a game, variables are part of the experience.

The variables are fun when they are properly hidden. Characters, inversely, should never be variable. A person should be the same person every time you meet him/her for the first time.

esper wrote...
Edit to make myself clearer: Why should I be allowed to do so as long as the game in is seperate playthrough doesn't break. My Hawkes couldn't care less that there are Anders' and Merrill's in other peole universes that is sleeping with male Hawke, because male Hawke doesn't exist in theirs. And in theirs universe each story as far as romance go makes internally perfect sense. That is all the consistency a characther needs.

This works for you. It does not work for me. I find out that the character acts as fill-in-the-blank, and from then on the character is ruined for me.

I am going to be rude and say that that is entirely your problem which you get from meta-gaming too much.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's very clearly established that Anders is bisexual, not Hawkesexual.

What's clearly established is that Anders was rewritten for the story requirements of DAII.

Like everything else that happened before DAII but is referenced in DAII. But this is a much larger problem with the game than just in the way it affects romance with Anders.

Some people alreay saw Anders as bi-sexual in da:a. I did too and I don't usually read people who are not explicity stated as gay as gay. It was just something in the way he acted towards Nathaniel, and some common factors between him and Leliana, and Zevran that made me think that. Glad bioware is moving away from that steoreo-tpye by the way.

And Anders is not rewritten, but I am not going to take that discussing here. It is impossible without spoilers.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
I am going to be rude and say that that is entirely your problem which you get from meta-gaming too much.

Would it ruin the character for you if it happned to have a line that expressed "I like men and women?"

If that doesn't ruin the character for you, then they have an easy enough way to not ruin the character for either of us.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I am going to be rude and say that that is entirely your problem which you get from meta-gaming too much.

Would it ruin the character for you if it happned to have a line that expressed "I like men and women?"

If that doesn't ruin the character for you, then they have an easy enough way to not ruin the character for either of us.

Well, it would ruin Merill for me, yes. Compared to how little she gets flirting, and any time she might have mentioned it, would make it feel akward. The few hints she does throw are  enough. Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds. And I just don't see Merrill as someone who is flaunting her sexuality.
If it is something she only says if you specifically ask, then no I wouldn't mind. Because then it would never see it so I wouldn't bother me.

But since I don't know the Li's in da3 I've got no opinion on it yet.   

Modifié par esper, 03 avril 2012 - 10:29 .

[Sylvianus]

esper wrote...
I am going to be rude and say that that is entirely your problem which you get from meta-gaming too much.

And those who aren't able to accept that not everyone needs to be available to your pc because they have they own tastes ( which is absolutely ridiculous for me ) I could say that this is entirely their problem too, they need to grow up. But you know I try not to say that, because it is useless and I don't need to dismiss their opinion even If I strongly disagree.

[esper]

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...
I am going to be rude and say that that is entirely your problem which you get from meta-gaming too much.

And those who aren't able to accept that not everyone needs to be available to your pc because they have they own tastes ( which is absolutely ridiculous for me ) I could say that this is entirely their problem too, they need to grow up. But you know I try not to say that, because it is useless and I don't need to dismiss their opinion even If I strongly disagree.

Aveline and Varric isn't aviable for their own reasons. But when it comes to romance then they are Li's in the first place, and I don't see why we should be limited in such a silly manner in a make-believe world.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds.

I am not Hawke. I experience, every world I play in. And Each DAII world should not change (read; characters become different) just because Hawke is created differently.

esper wrote...
I don't see why we should be limited in such a silly manner in a make-believe world.

For the sake of better writing.

As much as I love BioWare's stories, other writers have created much more poignant love stories by not trying to make so many darn options fit all in one game.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 10:32 .

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds.

I am not Hawke. I experience, every world I play in. And Each DAII world should not change (read; characters become different) just because Hawke is created differently.

Why not? It is a game. A roleplaying game at that. Hawke can be fundmentally different. Also why did you pluck my statement and commented on it now, instead of above where I specifically mentioned how I view each play through.

[Mmw04014]

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I am going to be rude and say that that is entirely your problem which you get from meta-gaming too much.

Would it ruin the character for you if it happned to have a line that expressed "I like men and women?"

If that doesn't ruin the character for you, then they have an easy enough way to not ruin the character for either of us.

Well, it would ruin Merill for me, yes. Compared to how little she gets flirting, and any time she might have mentioned it, would make it feel akward. The few hints she does throw are  enough. Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds. And I just don't see Merrill as someone who is flaunting her sexuality.
If it is something she only says if you specifically ask, then no I wouldn't mind. Because then I would never see it so I wouldn't bother me.

But since I don't know the Li's in da3 I've got no opinion on it yet.   

So you think that across all playthroughs Merrill shouldn't flaunt her sexuality. Well, what if they made that based on player choice like sexuality and in my game, she actually DOES flaunt herself to any one who will listen? It doesn't show up in your playthrough, so why should you care how she acts?

That's how I feel when people say I should just not care how characters act in other peoples games, because it doesn't make sense. If characters don't have definite characteristics across playthroughs then how can I take them seriously as unique characters?  You may be able to, but I can't, and that doesn't mean I'm "metagaming."

Modifié par Mmw04014, 03 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
Why not?

Because that's the way I play these games, and the way I enjoy these stories.

[the_one_54321]

Mmw04014 wrote...
That's how I feel when people say I should just not care how characters act in other peoples games, because it doesn't make sense. If characters don't have definite characteristics across playthroughs then how can I take them seriously as unique characters?  You may be able to, but I can't, and that doesn't mean I'm "metagaming."

But why don't you enjoy the game exactly the same way I do?!


/satire

Sometimes that's what I feel like people are telling me. <_<

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 10:39 .

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds.

I am not Hawke. I experience, every world I play in. And Each DAII world should not change (read; characters become different) just because Hawke is created differently.

esper wrote...
I don't see why we should be limited in such a silly manner in a make-believe world.

For the sake of better writing.

As much as I love BioWare's stories, other writers have created much more poignant love stories by not trying to make so many darn options fit all in one game.

It is a roleplaying game. A bioware one at that.  I expect options. I expect my gender to be treated with respect and I expect to have the same number of aviable Li's as the heterosexual now as well, not just the two rouges with the dubious background as in da:o. Which was quite offensive, albeit still a step in the right direction compared to having none.
The main core of the stories are not the love stories, they are good, often better than the main story, but optional. Thus they would never be as played out as detailed a story with a fixed male protganonist and a female herione and the love story in the focus of the story, but I wouldn't play the bioware game featuring that.
I play bioware game to get involved with the companion and also into my Hawkes/wardens/protagonist.  

[Dejajeva]

Let's not derail the thread. A character's sexuality could be argued all day every day from now until the Mayan Apocalypse.

I, on the other hand, have another wish.

And that is for more companion gifts. Not as many as in DAo- that just got unreasonable. But more gifts that mean something. I liked how it was done in DA2, actually. Especially when they got equipment they could use. But please, if I give someone a sword that's a gift and is important to the character, pleaseeee let it level up with my character.

Second, more quests with humor, like Avelines. It was one of the most enjoyable quests in the whole game.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
Thus they would never be as played out as detailed a story with a fixed male protganonist and a female herione and the love story in the focus of the story, but I wouldn't play the bioware game featuring that.

They don't need to write a story like that. They just need to fully write out the characters they choose to include. A few lines to establish some details.

I still think that including no more than two bisexual characters, that have their own characteristics and don't try to fill every potential player preference, but are written out in great detail, would be the best approach to creating a really gripping story.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
That's how I feel when people say I should just not care how characters act in other peoples games, because it doesn't make sense. If characters don't have definite characteristics across playthroughs then how can I take them seriously as unique characters?  You may be able to, but I can't, and that doesn't mean I'm "metagaming."

But why don't you enjoy the game exactly the same way I do?!


/satire

Sometimes that's what I feel like people are telling me. <_<

I am sorry youn started that with the comment about which I purposely rude, by implying a lot of unfortunate things such as characther are blank files and fills in because their sexuality change which feel personally offended by since I know that my own knowlegde of my own sexuality have changed (virtually meaning that to people such as my parents my sexuality have changed as I've told them different things during the years) but at the core I am the exact same person as I always have been.