1536 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
I am sorry youn started that with the comment about which I purposely rude, by implying a lot of unfortunate things such as characther are blank files and fills in because their sexuality change which feel personally offended by since I know that my own knowlegde of my own sexuality have changed (virtually meaning that to people such as my parents my sexuality have changed as I've told them different things during the years) but at the core I am the exact same person as I always have been.

You should never compare yourself so directly to a character in a video game. I certainly did not. In fact, what I've been saying is that the characters in this game are not actually bisexual. They change like flipping a light switch, at the start of every new game. That's not how people opperate, and I would never compare real people to this.

[Mmw04014]

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds.

I am not Hawke. I experience, every world I play in. And Each DAII world should not change (read; characters become different) just because Hawke is created differently.

esper wrote...
I don't see why we should be limited in such a silly manner in a make-believe world.

For the sake of better writing.

As much as I love BioWare's stories, other writers have created much more poignant love stories by not trying to make so many darn options fit all in one game.

It is a roleplaying game. A bioware one at that.  I expect options. I expect my gender to be treated with respect and I expect to have the same number of aviable Li's as the heterosexual now as well, not just the two rouges with the dubious background as in da:o. Which was quite offensive, albeit still a step in the right direction compared to having none.
The main core of the stories are not the love stories, they are good, often better than the main story, but optional. Thus they would never be as played out as detailed a story with a fixed male protganonist and a female herione and the love story in the focus of the story, but I wouldn't play the bioware game featuring that.
I play bioware game to get involved with the companion and also into my Hawkes/wardens/protagonist.  

You expect multiple options. I expect options that make sense. I'm roleplaying my character, not everyone else in my party. I feel way more fulfillment in a game when I make a "bad" decision and a character reacts badly, sometimes even enough to leave or attack me. I love that. It makes me feel like I'm traveling with real people and not a bunch of stooges who will love me no matter what I do. So yeah, I'm more than willing to sacrifice more options to make the choices we do have richer and more meaningful. (And again I point out, that doesn't mean just sexuality but all the parts of a characters personality - the problems I find inherant in the relationship system go deeper than that.)

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Thus they would never be as played out as detailed a story with a fixed male protganonist and a female herione and the love story in the focus of the story, but I wouldn't play the bioware game featuring that.

They don't need to write a story like that. They just need to fully write out the characters they choose to include. A few lines to establish some details.

I still think that including no more than two bisexual characters, that have their own characteristics and don't try to fill every potential player preference, but are written out in great detail, would be the best approach to creating a really gripping story.

Yeah, but considering that Gaider have stated that they won't do purely homosexual, and that the purely homosexual even in Me3 (which gets pro for having them) are only token Li's which is clearly lower on the rank than the straigh and bi ones. Besides I think more than four would hurt the story and make each romance path watered out, so I prefer four whbich is avaiable to everyone. It also avoids the unfortunate implications of da:o wiht the bi being the rouges with the dubious past that had a reason to be bi.

[Sherbet Lemon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
That's how I feel when people say I should just not care how characters act in other peoples games, because it doesn't make sense. If characters don't have definite characteristics across playthroughs then how can I take them seriously as unique characters?  You may be able to, but I can't, and that doesn't mean I'm "metagaming."

But why don't you enjoy the game exactly the same way I do?!


/satire

Sometimes that's what I feel like people are telling me. <_<

But by attaching qualitative descriptions to characterizations you are, in essence, saying the exact same thing.   

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
Yeah, but considering that Gaider have stated that they won't do purely homosexual, and that the purely homosexual even in Me3 (which gets pro for having them) are only token Li's which is clearly lower on the rank than the straigh and bi ones. Besides I think more than four would hurt the story and make each romance path watered out

Well yeah, that's more or less what I said. Two, or 1, and they be bisexual. Just, you know, actually written as bisexual. And just generally have more detail and story.

Village Idiot wrote...
But by attaching qualitative descriptions to characterizations you are, in essence, saying the exact same thing.

Hmmmm. Probably. But in continuing the conversation, I have not expected people to agree with me. I've even suggested ways that both expectations can be filled.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[slashthedragon]

esper wrote...

Yeah, but considering that Gaider have stated that they won't do purely homosexual, and that the purely homosexual even in Me3 (which gets pro for having them) are only token Li's which is clearly lower on the rank than the straigh and bi ones. Besides I think more than four would hurt the story and make each romance path watered out, so I prefer four whbich is avaiable to everyone. It also avoids the unfortunate implications of da:o wiht the bi being the rouges with the dubious past that had a reason to be bi.

ugh, why won't they do purely homosexual?  They do purely heterosexual...

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I am sorry youn started that with the comment about which I purposely rude, by implying a lot of unfortunate things such as characther are blank files and fills in because their sexuality change which feel personally offended by since I know that my own knowlegde of my own sexuality have changed (virtually meaning that to people such as my parents my sexuality have changed as I've told them different things during the years) but at the core I am the exact same person as I always have been.

You should never compare yourself so directly to a character in a video game. I certainly did not. In fact, what I've been saying is that the characters in this game are not actually bisexual. They change like flipping a light switch, at the start of every new game. That's not how people opperate, and I would never compare real people to this.

I am not comparing myself to any characther. I am comparing peoples comment and real life opinion off bi-sexual on this board to my situation and I am tired of people implying that being bi sexual means that you: Have to talk about sex all the time, I have to center your life about it and have to tell every damn person you meet as the very first thing.Arguably you are only guilted for the last and in a mild degree, sadly you are  the straw on this board which broke the camels back so you are getting all of the back slash from me. It is not fair, but neither are the thing which you are intentionally or not implying.

Also as a true agnostic (Don't even get me started on the wrong agnostic = don't knowing if god exist, That is a gross simplicfication of the belief-system) I can only argue from what I've myself experienced. So I have to draw my experience in some way into the argument. 

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Yeah, but considering that Gaider have stated that they won't do purely homosexual, and that the purely homosexual even in Me3 (which gets pro for having them) are only token Li's which is clearly lower on the rank than the straigh and bi ones. Besides I think more than four would hurt the story and make each romance path watered out

Well yeah, that's more or less what I said. Two, or 1, and they be bisexual. Just, you know, actually written as bisexual. And just generally have more detail and story.

Village Idiot wrote...
But by attaching qualitative descriptions to characterizations you are, in essence, saying the exact same thing.

Hmmmm. Probably. But in continuing the conversation, I have not expected people to agree with me. I've even suggested ways that both expectations can be filled.

I've never stated that I want you to agree with me. I just continue to quesiton your points as you do mine. Untill one of us have to stop, Which is proberly me, since I live in Scandinavia and it is aldready 00:58 here. Which is pretty late.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
people implying that being bi sexual means that you: Have to talk about sex all the time, I have to center your life about it and have to tell every damn person you meet as the very first thing.Arguably you are only guilted for the last and in a mild degree, sadly you are  the straw on this board which broke the camels back so you are getting all of the back slash from me. It is not fair, but neither are the thing which you are intentionally or not implying.

The only thing I want is more details and better writing for characters in a game.

[esper]

slashthedragon wrote...

esper wrote...

Yeah, but considering that Gaider have stated that they won't do purely homosexual, and that the purely homosexual even in Me3 (which gets pro for having them) are only token Li's which is clearly lower on the rank than the straigh and bi ones. Besides I think more than four would hurt the story and make each romance path watered out, so I prefer four whbich is avaiable to everyone. It also avoids the unfortunate implications of da:o wiht the bi being the rouges with the dubious past that had a reason to be bi.

ugh, why won't they do purely homosexual?  They do purely heterosexual...

I think he said resources and still too small demographic which is... yeah not good in anyway. But who knows mayby it change.

[Mmw04014]

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I am sorry youn started that with the comment about which I purposely rude, by implying a lot of unfortunate things such as characther are blank files and fills in because their sexuality change which feel personally offended by since I know that my own knowlegde of my own sexuality have changed (virtually meaning that to people such as my parents my sexuality have changed as I've told them different things during the years) but at the core I am the exact same person as I always have been.

You should never compare yourself so directly to a character in a video game. I certainly did not. In fact, what I've been saying is that the characters in this game are not actually bisexual. They change like flipping a light switch, at the start of every new game. That's not how people opperate, and I would never compare real people to this.

I am not comparing myself to any characther. I am comparing peoples comment and real life opinion off bi-sexual on this board to my situation and I am tired of people implying that being bi sexual means that you: Have to talk about sex all the time, I have to center your life about it and have to tell every damn person you meet as the very first thing.Arguably you are only guilted for the last and in a mild degree, sadly you are  the straw on this board which broke the camels back so you are getting all of the back slash from me. It is not fair, but neither are the thing which you are intentionally or not implying.

Also as a true agnostic (Don't even get me started on the wrong agnostic = don't knowing if god exist, That is a gross simplicfication of the belief-system) I can only argue from what I've myself experienced. So I have to draw my experience in some way into the argument. 

No one is implying that and if you take it that way then you are taking it the wrong way. We aren't even implying that in the game world. You are exaggerating to make your point. There are simple and effective ways to establish preference without even mentioning sex. Traynor in ME3 is a good example. The first time you meet her she's apologizing to EDI for talking about how attractive her voice was. Boom. We have pretty solid proof she likes women. She never says anything like that about a man so we can assume (and be correct about) that she a lesbian.

Bisexuals in the game don't need to tell everyone but they need to give an idea to the player character. We can't roleplay within a world if we don't have the facts and I don't see why we shouldn't have these facts. Again, this has nothing to do with the real world, so don't take it so seriously.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 03 avril 2012 - 11:04 .

[Meeya]

Will it be possible to get married in DA3 at any moment as long as the relationship is "serious" enough?

[slashthedragon]

esper wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

esper wrote...

Yeah, but considering that Gaider have stated that they won't do purely homosexual, and that the purely homosexual even in Me3 (which gets pro for having them) are only token Li's which is clearly lower on the rank than the straigh and bi ones. Besides I think more than four would hurt the story and make each romance path watered out, so I prefer four whbich is avaiable to everyone. It also avoids the unfortunate implications of da:o wiht the bi being the rouges with the dubious past that had a reason to be bi.

ugh, why won't they do purely homosexual?  They do purely heterosexual...

I think he said resources and still too small demographic which is... yeah not good in anyway. But who knows mayby it change.

Just...ARGH I don't even...
If it isn't a drain on resources to have a purely straight character, how does...oh my head...
And about the demographic issue--I'm still waiting to see which game company will be the first to have one of the main characters as gay.  Think of the prestige to be a company that does that FIRST.  Yes there will be detractors, but there are detractors for everything.
I always thought Square-Enix would be the first, but after learning more about Japanese culture...um no.  So I'm hoping a US company will do it.  (maybe when I win the lottery I'll start my own company and do it!)

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
people implying that being bi sexual means that you: Have to talk about sex all the time, I have to center your life about it and have to tell every damn person you meet as the very first thing.Arguably you are only guilted for the last and in a mild degree, sadly you are  the straw on this board which broke the camels back so you are getting all of the back slash from me. It is not fair, but neither are the thing which you are intentionally or not implying.

The only thing I want is more details and better writing for characters in a game.

But again, I find it offensive that every person unrpmotoed have to state that they are bi-for them not to be a 'fill in' characther. As you imply. Merrill was my answer to your former question which you ignored.

Now I did mention that I could live with the compromise of there being an option of the pc-directly asking and the companion answer with appropiate levels of being embarrassed for those characther which are not Isabella and Anders level of putting themselves out there, (Which you also ignored).

The is a huge difference between informing unpromoted and if you are asked.

[TEWR]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
It's very clearly established that Anders is bisexual, not Hawkesexual.

What's clearly established is that Anders was rewritten for the story requirements of DAII.

Like everything else that happened before DAII but is referenced in DAII. But this is a much larger problem with the game than just in the way it affects romance with Anders.

I... wait what? You did just read how Anders will flat out state to Isabela that they had sex? That he tells Hawke about his relationship with Karl? That a Male Hawke is the only one told this information doesn't mean it didn't happen if Hawke was female. It just means a Female Hawke isn't privy to this information.

I don't understand why Bioware made that information accessible to only a Male Hawke, but I digress...

You're arguing that he's Hawkesexual, yet both games -- DAII moreso -- provide sufficient evidence that this is not the case.

You can maintain that he's Hawkesexual, but it's a wrong belief.

People saw his Awakening banter with Nathaniel -- prior to DAII's release -- as him being bisexual.

I think one could safely presume that while he is open to being with someone of either gender, he would prefer to be with a woman a little more then a man, given how he says he wants a beautiful girl by his side. Which doesn't make him strictly heterosexual. It doesn't negate his bisexuality. It just means that if he had a say for who he fell in love with, he'd probably pick a woman over a man. But he'll fall in love with a man if that man does something that makes him fall in love with the man.

At any rate, ignoring that last paragraph, Anders' sexuality hasn't changed. I don't even understand what you're truly arguing.

If you don't want the companions' sexuality to be determined by the PC, then that's something I can agree with. But, the DAII companions aren't examples of PC-determined sexuality. The only one that comes close to being such a thing is Merrill, though MotA -- depending on interpretation of her comment about Tallis -- implies that she'd be attracted to Tallis were she not in a romance with Hawke.

And by close, I don't mean she's anywhere near being a fill-in romance. She's just the closest out of the four, given our limited interaction with her in the past. I've already gone over Fenris 6 or so pages back, and Anders I've just gone over.

I also know she's attracted to the Qunari Kossith in the Qunari Compound, so she's at least established as heterosexual in the base game -- despite actually being bisexual in-game.

There are ways for the companions to not be PC-sexual that don't involve bragging about their past sexual exploits to the PC.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 avril 2012 - 11:14 .

[esper]

Mmw04014 wrote...

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I am sorry youn started that with the comment about which I purposely rude, by implying a lot of unfortunate things such as characther are blank files and fills in because their sexuality change which feel personally offended by since I know that my own knowlegde of my own sexuality have changed (virtually meaning that to people such as my parents my sexuality have changed as I've told them different things during the years) but at the core I am the exact same person as I always have been.

You should never compare yourself so directly to a character in a video game. I certainly did not. In fact, what I've been saying is that the characters in this game are not actually bisexual. They change like flipping a light switch, at the start of every new game. That's not how people opperate, and I would never compare real people to this.

I am not comparing myself to any characther. I am comparing peoples comment and real life opinion off bi-sexual on this board to my situation and I am tired of people implying that being bi sexual means that you: Have to talk about sex all the time, I have to center your life about it and have to tell every damn person you meet as the very first thing.Arguably you are only guilted for the last and in a mild degree, sadly you are  the straw on this board which broke the camels back so you are getting all of the back slash from me. It is not fair, but neither are the thing which you are intentionally or not implying.

Also as a true agnostic (Don't even get me started on the wrong agnostic = don't knowing if god exist, That is a gross simplicfication of the belief-system) I can only argue from what I've myself experienced. So I have to draw my experience in some way into the argument. 

No one is implying that and if you take it that way then you are taking it the wrong way. We aren't even implying that in the game world. You are exaggerating to make your point. There are simple and effective ways to establish preference without even mentioning sex. Traynor in ME3 is a good example. The first time you meet her she's apologizing to EDI for talking about how attractive her voice was. Boom. We have pretty solid proof she likes women. She never says anything like that about a man so we can assume (and be correct about) that she a lesbian.

Bisexuals in the game don't need to tell everyone but they need to give an idea to the player character. We can't roleplay within a world if we don't have the facts and I don't see why we shouldn't have these facts. Again, this has nothing to do with the real world, so don't take it so seriously.

I don't see the need to know more than a npc is attracted to me for me to be able to roleplay that. Sure some of my characthers might which to know more, but the very fact that they are attracted to me is really enough to regard wherever they are romances or not. my Hawke's never pondered Anders sexuality, they were fair too busy pondering whatever the whole Justice thing made it a smart move and not, my Merrill-romance characther never wondered about wherever she might also like guys since Merrill clearly said she liked Hawke and Hawke was far too busy wondering how she should handle the nobles, the mirrors, Marathari and the blood magic. Who Merrill might also romance if Hawke was not interested, really didn't give her any reason to pause.

[slashthedragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I... wait what? You did just read how Anders will flat out state to Isabela that they had sex? That he tells Hawke about his relationship with Karl? That a Male Hawke is the only one told this information doesn't mean it didn't happen if Hawke was female. It just means a Female Hawke isn't privy to this information.

I don't exactly agree with this.  If you never encounter this information as Female Hawke, then it doesn't mean that in that "universe/timeline" Anders slept with Karl (IMO).
I also find it weird that Anders would bring this up to a male Hawke...why would being with another man in the past bother Hawke if Hawke is romancing Anders (or does this convo happen no matter what?)  He should really be asking that of a female Hawke.

[Mmw04014]

esper wrote...

I don't see the need to know more than a npc is attracted to me for me to be able to roleplay that. Sure some of my characthers might which to know more, but the very fact that they are attracted to me is really enough to regard wherever they are romances or not. my Hawke's never pondered Anders sexuality, they were fair too busy pondering whatever the whole Justice thing made it a smart move and not, my Merrill-romance characther never wondered about wherever she might also like guys since Merrill clearly said she liked Hawke and Hawke was far too busy wondering how she should handle the nobles, the mirrors, Marathari and the blood magic. Who Merrill might also romance if Hawke was not interested, really didn't give her any reason to pause.

I understand what you're trying to say but I'm not saying that the characters are ruined for my Hawke, they are ruined for me. Sure, my Hawke's don't really worry about their LI's sexuality. But my own personal feelings for the characters break down when they stop being their own characters. If a character can vary widely between playthroughs or they do something that goes against their character just to accomadate the PC, then I can't get attached to that character. I think that's why, even though I adore playing the romances, my favorite characters are non-LI's because they don't fall prey to this problem as much.

EDIT: snipped out the quote tree.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 03 avril 2012 - 11:20 .

[esper]

Mmw04014 wrote...

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Remind you that this is experiences my Hawke would have in their respective worlds.

I am not Hawke. I experience, every world I play in. And Each DAII world should not change (read; characters become different) just because Hawke is created differently.

esper wrote...
I don't see why we should be limited in such a silly manner in a make-believe world.

For the sake of better writing.

As much as I love BioWare's stories, other writers have created much more poignant love stories by not trying to make so many darn options fit all in one game.

It is a roleplaying game. A bioware one at that.  I expect options. I expect my gender to be treated with respect and I expect to have the same number of aviable Li's as the heterosexual now as well, not just the two rouges with the dubious background as in da:o. Which was quite offensive, albeit still a step in the right direction compared to having none.
The main core of the stories are not the love stories, they are good, often better than the main story, but optional. Thus they would never be as played out as detailed a story with a fixed male protganonist and a female herione and the love story in the focus of the story, but I wouldn't play the bioware game featuring that.
I play bioware game to get involved with the companion and also into my Hawkes/wardens/protagonist.  

You expect multiple options. I expect options that make sense. I'm roleplaying my character, not everyone else in my party. I feel way more fulfillment in a game when I make a "bad" decision and a character reacts badly, sometimes even enough to leave or attack me. I love that. It makes me feel like I'm traveling with real people and not a bunch of stooges who will love me no matter what I do. So yeah, I'm more than willing to sacrifice more options to make the choices we do have richer and more meaningful. (And again I point out, that doesn't mean just sexuality but all the parts of a characters personality - the problems I find inherant in the relationship system go deeper than that.)

Gender is not something you do, it is something you are. And if they can ignore race in the romance like in da:O which is a much huger issue than the one token dialog wiht Leliana and the break-up scene with Alistar which was unrealistic since you could litterary change his personality at the drop of a hat to make sure he kept your pc, then I don't see the problem with them being open to either gender. This is not the real world, I am stuck with only four Li's for my characther, if the characther can't go out in the world and keep searching to they find the person that fits as we in real life can, I expect the few Li to at least be aviable to both gender and all races (if that comes back).

[Deviija]

Switching to the topic in general again:

I would love to see a warrior lady as romance, someone strong and capable in her own right and not requiring the PC to 'fix' them or to 'save' them (especially if the PC is a dude). Like a gender-flipped Garrus, or strong and steadfast as Aveline.

And though it may be getting specific, I'd also like to see the (Male especially) PC have a dark-skinned human person of color as an LI. In BioWare games, I believe only women have had dark-skinned black men to romance in the past. Like Aarin Gend and Jacob. Isabela is light-skinned/brown, but I'd enjoy seeing a dark-skinned black woman as a strong character and potential LI. There are so few portrayals in our gaming industry, especially as heroes/heroines.

Cullen's return. As a companion, possibly. I like his general arc across the games and would enjoy him in a companion or DA2-esque consistent role throughout the game. Something.

More subjects to chat about with our companions. One thing I liked about DA:O is how many conversations we were able to have about humorous things, or common topics (shoes!), and general chit-chat interactivity. The Big Character Developing and Fleshing-Out subjects are important and I daresay more important than idle chat, but I liked just bantering and being casual. Things other than Dire Portents and Political Stances and Deadly Current Situations.

[lx_theo]

And though it may be getting specific, I'd also like to see the (Male especially) PC have a dark-skinned human person of color as an LI. In BioWare games, I believe only women have had dark-skinned black men to romance in the past. Like Aarin Gend and Jacob. Isabela is light-skinned/brown, but I'd enjoy seeing a dark-skinned black woman as a strong character and potential LI. There are so few portrayals in our gaming industry, especially as heroes/heroines.

Just as a note on this point made... Raina Temple, SWTOR, Inperial Agent Companion

[esper]

Mmw04014 wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't see the need to know more than a npc is attracted to me for me to be able to roleplay that. Sure some of my characthers might which to know more, but the very fact that they are attracted to me is really enough to regard wherever they are romances or not. my Hawke's never pondered Anders sexuality, they were fair too busy pondering whatever the whole Justice thing made it a smart move and not, my Merrill-romance characther never wondered about wherever she might also like guys since Merrill clearly said she liked Hawke and Hawke was far too busy wondering how she should handle the nobles, the mirrors, Marathari and the blood magic. Who Merrill might also romance if Hawke was not interested, really didn't give her any reason to pause.

I understand what you're trying to say but I'm not saying that the characters are ruined for my Hawke, they are ruined for me. Sure, my Hawke's don't really worry about their LI's sexuality. But my own personal feelings for the characters break down when they stop being their own characters. If a character can vary widely between playthroughs or they do something that goes against their character just to accomadate the PC, then I can't get attached to that character. I think that's why, even though I adore playing the romances, my favorite characters are non-LI's because they don't fall prey to this problem as much.

EDIT: snipped out the quote tree.

Well, you see that is where I have to be rude and say I can't really care because you and I see it so differenlty that we simply won't agree. I don't care if the parallel wolds or Hawkes is not consisten as long as they are consisten within each seperate world. I don't see falling in love as accomodiating the pc if the PC have been perfectly nice to them and done the things they find romantic since I don't have a problem with a gay Merrill and a hetero sexual in different worlds because the two worlds don't exist at the same time.

And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
But again, I find it offensive that every person unrpmotoed have to state that they are bi-for them not to be a 'fill in' characther. As you imply. Merrill was my answer to your former question which you ignored.

Now I did mention that I could live with the compromise of there being an option of the pc-directly asking and the companion answer with appropiate levels of being embarrassed for those characther which are not Isabella and Anders level of putting themselves out there, (Which you also ignored).

The is a huge difference between informing unpromoted and if you are asked.

esper wrote...
I don't see the need to know more than a npc is attracted to me for me to be able to roleplay that. Sure some of my characthers might which to know more, but the very fact that they are attracted to me is really enough to regard wherever they are romances or not. my Hawke's never pondered Anders sexuality, they were fair too busy pondering whatever the whole Justice thing made it a smart move and not, my Merrill-romance characther never wondered about wherever she might also like guys since Merrill clearly said she liked Hawke and Hawke was far too busy wondering how she should handle the nobles, the mirrors, Marathari and the blood magic. Who Merrill might also romance if Hawke was not interested, really didn't give her any reason to pause.

esper wrote...
Gender is not something you do, it is something you are. And if they can ignore race in the romance like in da:O which is a much huger issue than the one token dialog wiht Leliana and the break-up scene with Alistar which was unrealistic since you could litterary change his personality at the drop of a hat to make sure he kept your pc, then I don't see the problem with them being open to either gender. This is not the real world, I am stuck with only four Li's for my characther, if the characther can't go out in the world and keep searching to they find the person that fits as we in real life can, I expect the few Li to at least be aviable to both gender and all races (if that comes back).

esper wrote...
Well, you see that is where I have to be rude and say I can't really care because you and I see it so differenlty that we simply won't agree. I don't care if the parallel wolds or Hawkes is not consisten as long as they are consisten within each seperate world. I don't see falling in love as accomodiating the pc if the PC have been perfectly nice to them and done the things they find romantic since I don't have a problem with a gay Merrill and a hetero sexual in different worlds because the two worlds don't exist at the same time.

And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

Frankly, I have a growing suspicion that your objections are motivated by bias that comes from your own experiences with human sexuality. That makes it very very hard to address your points because, quite honestly, I think that human sexuality should have next to nothing to do with this issue. As you have also pointed out in this discuscussion, it's a game. I want detailed characters in the game that fit in a world that is consisten between every new game I start. Becaus that is how I am able to immerse myself in the game world.

If this clashes with your experiences in human sexuality, and your perception of judgment, expectation, or related unpleasantness, I'm sorry but that means nothing to how I am able to immerse myself in the game.

slashthedragon wrote...
If it isn't a drain on resources to have a purely straight character, how does...oh my head...

It is a drain on resources to include both options and heterosexual won that bidding war. Simple as that. On the flip side;

the_one_54321 wrote...
I still think that including no more than two bisexual characters, that have their own characteristics and don't try to fill every potential player preference, but are written out in great detail, would be the best approach to creating a really gripping story.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 03 avril 2012 - 11:52 .

[Mmw04014]

esper wrote...

Gender is not something you do, it is something you are. And if they can
ignore race in the romance like in da:O which is a much huger issue
than the one token dialog wiht Leliana and the break-up scene with
Alistar which was unrealistic since you could litterary change his
personality at the drop of a hat to make sure he kept your pc, then I
don't see the problem with them being open to either gender. This is not
the real world, I am stuck with only four Li's for my characther, if
the characther can't go out in the world and keep searching to they find
the person that fits as we in real life can, I expect the few Li to at
least be aviable to both gender and all races (if that comes back).

Oh, don't get me wrong. I would have loved for your chosen race to have more of an impact on who you could romance. Gender, race, personality... those things should affect who I can romance and who I can't. I don't mind being locked out of a romance because of these things because I'll just roleplay another character that CAN romance that character. As for Alistair's personality change, I felt that was a very natural progression for his character. You weren't making a decision about who he is going to be but rather it felt like you were guiding him. His personality didn't shift dramatically either. It also didn't come about just because my PC all of a sudden was all "You know.. you should be meaner sometimes." It came about because of his sister rejecting him and it had the possiblity of shifting his worldview. Those are positive changes within a character and are completely welcome in my opinion.

esper wrote...

Well, you see that is where I have to be rude and say I can't really care because you and I see it so differenlty that we simply won't agree. I don't care if the parallel wolds or Hawkes is not consisten as long as they are consisten within each seperate world. I don't see falling in love as accomodiating the pc if the PC have been perfectly nice to them and done the things they find romantic since I don't have a problem with a gay Merrill and a hetero sexual in different worlds because the two worlds don't exist at the same time.

And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

I still think you are misunderstanding my argument. I agree that it is clear that our priorities are different and I don't see anything wrong with that. We're on the BSN, I assume everyone disagrees with me unless proven otherwise.

However, I will make it clear that I don't think a character's sexuality is more important than fairness, etc. I think a characters integrity is more important than fairness. A straight, bisexual, or gay character can all have character integrity. I also don't think sexuality is the most important part of a character's personality. It's just the specific topic we are discussing. I'll have equally long discussions with you on how I think Ander's dating someone that is anti-mage is just as game breaking for me, etc.

Modifié par Mmw04014, 03 avril 2012 - 11:50 .

[esper]

Deviija wrote...


Switching to the topic in general again:

I would love to see a warrior lady as romance, someone strong and capable in her own right and not requiring the PC to 'fix' them or to 'save' them (especially if the PC is a dude). Like a gender-flipped Garrus, or strong and steadfast as Aveline.

And though it may be getting specific, I'd also like to see the (Male especially) PC have a dark-skinned human person of color as an LI. In BioWare games, I believe only women have had dark-skinned black men to romance in the past. Like Aarin Gend and Jacob. Isabela is light-skinned/brown, but I'd enjoy seeing a dark-skinned black woman as a strong character and potential LI. There are so few portrayals in our gaming industry, especially as heroes/heroines.

Cullen's return. As a companion, possibly. I like his general arc across the games and would enjoy him in a companion or DA2-esque consistent role throughout the game. Something.

More subjects to chat about with our companions. One thing I liked about DA:O is how many conversations we were able to have about humorous things, or common topics (shoes!), and general chit-chat interactivity. The Big Character Developing and Fleshing-Out subjects are important and I daresay more important than idle chat, but I liked just bantering and being casual. Things other than Dire Portents and Political Stances and Deadly Current Situations.

This are becoming serious busniness, isn't it... Perhaps I should cool off. I am a little bit nervous about the popular demands that people want back. I don't specifically wants Cullen, Cassandra and Tallis back and as Li, and if they all three are it seems that I am stuck wiht only one romance options no matter how I feel on the subject anyway

 I would like Alain as a companion not necessarily a romance, don't know why I suddenly thought of him, was he dark skinned? (I need to stop my psp gaming and get back to dragon age). Anyway I am just slightly worried about him with the amount of bad people he attracts. Sohe deserve some plot/pc plot shield protection by extension.

I would also like Fenryel back as romanceable, but he can be tranquilled on screen so that might take higher retconning power.  I want a male mage Li again. There are not enough of those and I've never found the warrior attractive. There are something about to much muscles = no brain, I know it is not fair, but it is a prejudice hard to let go of, which is why I think to find the stereo types attractiv ín order of mages, rouge and warrior.

And in the not happening ever area, I want Carver back as, as a romanceable characther. Which is funny because he is a warrior. I of course expect the next pc not to be Hawke.