1536 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

esper wrote...
And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

I don't want to be rude, but Then that is your problem, not game's problem. All what you say has nothing to do with how we could have something better for the story and characters. Like I said, you need to grow up. Characters can have their own tastes. ( Yes even LI people ) When i read you, I really don't see any problem except you don't have everything.

That's really ridiculous if you can't accept that one LI character can't be with you because she isn't interested by your gender, or something else. Yes it happens,  It must be always about characters first when it is about character's idendity and writting, not our choices.

You don't care, Yes I know. But this why I think we are going in the wrong direction. People are only interested by themself.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
But again, I find it offensive that every person unrpmotoed have to state that they are bi-for them not to be a 'fill in' characther. As you imply. Merrill was my answer to your former question which you ignored.

Now I did mention that I could live with the compromise of there being an option of the pc-directly asking and the companion answer with appropiate levels of being embarrassed for those characther which are not Isabella and Anders level of putting themselves out there, (Which you also ignored).

The is a huge difference between informing unpromoted and if you are asked.

esper wrote...
I don't see the need to know more than a npc is attracted to me for me to be able to roleplay that. Sure some of my characthers might which to know more, but the very fact that they are attracted to me is really enough to regard wherever they are romances or not. my Hawke's never pondered Anders sexuality, they were fair too busy pondering whatever the whole Justice thing made it a smart move and not, my Merrill-romance characther never wondered about wherever she might also like guys since Merrill clearly said she liked Hawke and Hawke was far too busy wondering how she should handle the nobles, the mirrors, Marathari and the blood magic. Who Merrill might also romance if Hawke was not interested, really didn't give her any reason to pause.

esper wrote...
Gender is not something you do, it is something you are. And if they can ignore race in the romance like in da:O which is a much huger issue than the one token dialog wiht Leliana and the break-up scene with Alistar which was unrealistic since you could litterary change his personality at the drop of a hat to make sure he kept your pc, then I don't see the problem with them being open to either gender. This is not the real world, I am stuck with only four Li's for my characther, if the characther can't go out in the world and keep searching to they find the person that fits as we in real life can, I expect the few Li to at least be aviable to both gender and all races (if that comes back).

esper wrote...
Well, you see that is where I have to be rude and say I can't really care because you and I see it so differenlty that we simply won't agree. I don't care if the parallel wolds or Hawkes is not consisten as long as they are consisten within each seperate world. I don't see falling in love as accomodiating the pc if the PC have been perfectly nice to them and done the things they find romantic since I don't have a problem with a gay Merrill and a hetero sexual in different worlds because the two worlds don't exist at the same time.

And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

Frankly, I have a growing suspicion that your objections are motivated by bias that comes from your own experiences with human sexuality. That makes it very very hard to address your points because, quite honestly, I think that human sexuality should have next to nothing to do with this issue. As you have also pointed out in this discuscussion, it's a game. I want detailed characters in the game that fit in a world that is consisten between every new game I start. Becaus that is how I am able to immerse myself in the game world.

If this clashes with your experiences in human sexuality, and your perception of judgment, expectation, or related unpleasantness, I'm sorry that means nothing to how I am able to immerse myself in the game.

slashthedragon wrote...
If it isn't a drain on resources to have a purely straight character, how does...oh my head...

It is a drain on resources to include both options and heterosexual won that bidding war. Simple as that.

My bias come from the attitude a lot of people here on BSN have towards sexuality. (I've lurked and posted a lot of in the former threads on the subject.) I admit that you are not the worst and not all that bad in fact, but you were just that stuopid famous straw...
I want to be able to romance girls and I don't want to be able to have only one choice which have a reason to be bi/gay and is not the main female of the romance options. Some here on BSN have directly stated very offending thngs regarding that. And you are unintentionally or not saying somethng which gets dangerously close to that.
And since this is a game and romances a at a certain point makes believe, I don't have a problem with the parallel universe regarding dialog. 

On the other hand you specifically refuse to continue debate the compromise solutin which you yourself brought up. I exemplfied it twice now with Merrill, but you never ever comment on it, just take quotes out of context which means I will put you in the same category as those offenders. 

[Merci357]

Sylvianus wrote...

You don't care, Yes I know. But this why I think we are going in the wrong direction. People are only interested by themself.

To be honest, that's because it's not the real life kind of thing. We are talking about games, that are meant to deliver a few hours of entertainment and escapism. And even though romances are optional, wouldn't you be disappointed as well if the most interesting companion (for you) isn't available because you picked the wrong gender?

You speak only for yourself, as well, when you dismiss other opinions like this.

[the_one_54321]

Mmw04014 wrote...
I'll have equally long discussions with you on how I think Ander's dating someone that is anti-mage is just as game breaking for me, etc.

Seriously, wth is up with that? He'll SPOILER, but he'll still fall in love with a mage hater. It's completely bogus. That is easily twice as bad as any other romance problem.

esper wrote...
On the other hand you specifically refuse to continue debate the compromise solutin which you yourself brought up. I exemplfied it twice now with Merrill, but you never ever comment on it, just take quotes out of context which means I will put you in the same category as those offenders. 

I'm not taking anything out of context. There was nothing to disagree with on Merril. They can offer an approach that will not ruin things for either of us and you said that in future characters it wouldn't bother you either. I don't have anything to add to that.

This isn't a contest. If a particular line of discussion is resolved in a way that is statisfactory to both sides, there's no reason to keep poking at it.

edit*
(actually, the more I think about it, the more I figure that the fact that opposite sides of such a strong disagreement were able to concretely agree on something is kind of a big deal)

Modifié par the_one_54321, 04 avril 2012 - 12:19 .

[esper]

Sylvianus wrote...

esper wrote...
And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

I don't want to be rude, but Then that is your problem, not game's problem. All what you say has nothing to do with how we could have something better for the story and characters. Like I said, you need to grow up. Characters can have their own tastes. ( Yes even LI people ) When i read you, I really don't see any problem except you don't have everything.

That's really ridiculous if you can't accept that one LI character can't be with you because she isn't interested by your gender, or something else. Yes it happens,  It must be always about characters first when it is about character's idendity and writting, not our choices.

You don't care, Yes I know. But this why I think we are going in the wrong direction. People are only interested by themself.

As said, of course it is my problem. Bioware just chose to pander to me and not to you or however I am debating with in this specific issue. If Morrigan mirror travel had been aviable on the friendship path I wouldn't rage so much over it. And this is specific the meta-knowlegde in which case I simply have to choose which meta-knowlegde I value most.

It still does not change that in each in-game universe towards Hawke the characthers are consistent and since meta-knowlegde doesn't break my playing experience in this regard, it doesn't bother me, and it doesn't bother others either. I am not alone, just the only one posting about it right now.

[Johnny Jaded]

Deviija wrote...

I would love to see a warrior lady as romance, someone strong and capable in her own right and not requiring the PC to 'fix' them or to 'save' them (especially if the PC is a dude). Like a gender-flipped Garrus, or strong and steadfast as Aveline.

I suspect this is going to be quoted with "I agree" numerous times. Starting with me it seems.

Deviija wrote...

And though it may be getting specific, I'd also like to see the (Male especially) PC have a dark-skinned human person of color as an LI. [...] Isabela is light-skinned/brown, but I'd enjoy seeing a dark-skinned black woman as a strong character and potential LI.

Isabela is Rivaini, who are the darkest skinned people in Thedas (that are known about). So, lorewise, that's currently the darkest skintone we're likely to see.

[the_one_54321]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

Deviija wrote...
I would love to see a warrior lady as romance, someone strong and capable in her own right and not requiring the PC to 'fix' them or to 'save' them (especially if the PC is a dude). Like a gender-flipped Garrus, or strong and steadfast as Aveline.

I suspect this is going to be quoted with "I agree" numerous times. Starting with me it seems.

Ditto.
In fact, I'd like a warrior lady that I can follow rather than lead. And if she isn't specifically a warrior, that wouldn't be so terible, so long as the strength of character is there.

[Merci357]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Johnny Jaded wrote...

Deviija wrote...
I would love to see a warrior lady as romance, someone strong and capable in her own right and not requiring the PC to 'fix' them or to 'save' them (especially if the PC is a dude). Like a gender-flipped Garrus, or strong and steadfast as Aveline.

I suspect this is going to be quoted with "I agree" numerous times. Starting with me it seems.

Ditto.
In fact, I'd like a warrior lady that I can follow rather than lead. And if she isn't specifically a warrior, that wouldn't be so terible, so long as the strength of character is there.

Cassandra could fill this role. And I'd love it.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I'll have equally long discussions with you on how I think Ander's dating someone that is anti-mage is just as game breaking for me, etc.

Seriously, wth is up with that? He'll SPOILER, but he'll still fall in love with a mage hater. It's completely bogus. That is easily twice as bad as any other romance problem.

It is not completely bogus, I only did it once and am not sure how to explain it without going into too much spoilors, but in Anders rival path you are eroding any last self-esteem that he might have had. It is siqnificant that Anders is the one who has the jeloays dialog. You are eroding the already sad remains of his self-esteem, and his is clingly onto you for life. It is not a healthy relentionship, and depending on the Hawke (mine was agressive, didn't help) it comes off as almost mentally abusive, but it is as realistic as it gets for a characther with the personification of a virtue stuck in his head.

[the_one_54321]

Merci357 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Johnny Jaded wrote...

Deviija wrote...
I would love to see a warrior lady as romance, someone strong and capable in her own right and not requiring the PC to 'fix' them or to 'save' them (especially if the PC is a dude). Like a gender-flipped Garrus, or strong and steadfast as Aveline.

I suspect this is going to be quoted with "I agree" numerous times. Starting with me it seems.

Ditto.
In fact, I'd like a warrior lady that I can follow rather than lead. And if she isn't specifically a warrior, that wouldn't be so terible, so long as the strength of character is there.

Cassandra could fill this role. And I'd love it.

Cassandara can fill my role any time...

*gasp* Did I say that out loud?!

Modifié par the_one_54321, 04 avril 2012 - 12:13 .

[Sylvianus]

Merci357 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

You don't care, Yes I know. But this why I think we are going in the wrong direction. People are only interested by themself.

To be honest, that's because it's not the real life kind of thing. We are talking about games, that are meant to deliver a few hours of entertainment and escapism. And even though romances are optional, wouldn't you be disappointed as well if the most interesting companion (for you) isn't available because you picked the wrong gender?

You speak only for yourself, as well, when you dismiss other opinions like this.

I speak for myself and that is my opinion when  people say they don't care, it doesn't matter, no matter what are the characters. Morrigan isn't interested, you must respect that, i don't see what's so difficult with that.

Samantha in Mass effect 3 is lesbian, I don't scream to bioware because she isn't available to my gender. This is nonsense. It isn't about my choice, it is about a character that Bioware created in a universe. We can't control their mind, and I am glad Bioware overall do not let us do that.

Escapism doesn't mean we shouldn't care about the writting, about the character's identity etc. They are all bi is a nonsense, it has no virtues except the stupid reason we know that has nothing to do with the story and the characters, and what strikes me is that they don't care as long as they have everything. They repeat those words." i don't care, I don't care '

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[hussey 92]

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Modifié par hussey 92, 04 avril 2012 - 12:17 .

[hussey 92]

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Modifié par hussey 92, 04 avril 2012 - 12:29 .

[hussey 92]

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(sorry, don't know how to delete post..)

Modifié par hussey 92, 04 avril 2012 - 12:25 .

[esper]

Sylvianus wrote...

Merci357 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

You don't care, Yes I know. But this why I think we are going in the wrong direction. People are only interested by themself.

To be honest, that's because it's not the real life kind of thing. We are talking about games, that are meant to deliver a few hours of entertainment and escapism. And even though romances are optional, wouldn't you be disappointed as well if the most interesting companion (for you) isn't available because you picked the wrong gender?

You speak only for yourself, as well, when you dismiss other opinions like this.

I speak for myself and that is my opinion when  people say they don't care, it doesn't matter, no matter what are the characters. Morrigan isn't interested, you must respect that, i don't see what's so difficult with that.

Samantha in Mass effect 3 is lesbian, I don't scream to bioware because she isn't available to my gender. This is nonsense. It isn't about my choice, it is about a character that Bioware created in a universe. We can't control their mind, and I am glad Bioware overall do not let us do that.

Escapism doesn't mean we shouldn't care about the writting, about the character's identity etc. They are all bi is a nonsense, it has no virtues except the stupid reason we know that has nothing to do with the story and the characters, and what strikes me is that they don't care as long as they have everything. They repeat those words." i don't care, I don't care '

Samantha and Cortez was very much token romances. A step in the right direction, but not entirely all right. Escpially since the male got Kaidan, but we women didn't get Ashley.

Morrigan was actively bloking female players from a very significant ending choice, that was not all right.

She is also the most important of the two females (and in my opinion the most interesting,) And I see no logical reason to that I can't explore her personality in that aspcet other than Bioware didn't write it so, which would be much less jarring if it wasn't for the fact that Leliana and Zevran have eeirly similar backgrounds.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
Morrigan was actively bloking female players from a very significant ending choice, that was not all right.

And I can't be king of Ferelden next to Alistair.

Differences are not a horrible thing.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 04 avril 2012 - 12:23 .

[esper]

[quote]hussey 92 wrote...


[quote]esper wrote...

I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay

[quote]hussey 92 wrote...

Morrigan and Alister arn't gay (or bi).  If you want to go through the eluvian with Morrigan you have to play as a male,  if you want to rule Ferelden with Alister you have to play as a female.  This gives you a different perspective for playing as a male or female.

And what do you mean fairness for both genders?  Anyone can play as any gender and access any romance
[/quote]

I want to go through the mirror. You can rule Fereldan with Anora, but you can't go through the mirror with Morrigan as a sign of friendship and trust, even if she sees you as a sister. That is not all right.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
Morrigan was actively bloking female players from a very significant ending choice, that was not all right.

And I can't be king of Ferelden next to Alistair.

Differences are not a horrible thing.

You can rule Fereldan next to Anora. Making the comparison invalid.,

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...
I want to go through the mirror. You can rule Fereldan with Anora, but you can't go through the mirror with Morrigan as a sign of friendship and trust, even if she sees you as a sister. That is not all right.

You also can't get Morrigan pregnant with the god-baby.

Differences aren't always going to be 100% fair. If every PC had every option available in every playthrough, the creation of the PC would carry next to zero weight. It would render it fairly meaningless. Embrace the differences. They make multiple playthroughs worth the effort.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 04 avril 2012 - 12:28 .

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I want to go through the mirror. You can rule Fereldan with Anora, but you can't go through the mirror with Morrigan as a sign of friendship and trust, even if she sees you as a sister. That is not all right.

You also can't get Morrigan pregnant with the god-baby.

Yes, I can. Alistar and Loghain are quite willing to let me persaude them to do it. Never not done the dark ritual.

[WardenWade]

I'd be interested in having a genuine city elf LI. Not just an elf who happens to be urban, but straight out of the alienage.

And a dwarven LI, of course.

I'd also like to reprise my romance from Origins as my Warden in a future game...

Modifié par WardenWade, 04 avril 2012 - 12:33 .

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I want to go through the mirror. You can rule Fereldan with Anora, but you can't go through the mirror with Morrigan as a sign of friendship and trust, even if she sees you as a sister. That is not all right.

You also can't get Morrigan pregnant with the god-baby.

Yes, I can. Alistar and Loghain are quite willing to let me persaude them to do it. Never not done the dark ritual.

Granted, but you didn't do it. Morrigan takes the father of her blasphemous child with her, whom she is also ostensibly in love with.

(not that she actually answered any of the questions around that *grumbe* *grumble*)

[hussey 92]

esper wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't see the need to know more than a npc is attracted to me for me to be able to roleplay that. Sure some of my characthers might which to know more, but the very fact that they are attracted to me is really enough to regard wherever they are romances or not. my Hawke's never pondered Anders sexuality, they were fair too busy pondering whatever the whole Justice thing made it a smart move and not, my Merrill-romance characther never wondered about wherever she might also like guys since Merrill clearly said she liked Hawke and Hawke was far too busy wondering how she should handle the nobles, the mirrors, Marathari and the blood magic. Who Merrill might also romance if Hawke was not interested, really didn't give her any reason to pause.

I understand what you're trying to say but I'm not saying that the characters are ruined for my Hawke, they are ruined for me. Sure, my Hawke's don't really worry about their LI's sexuality. But my own personal feelings for the characters break down when they stop being their own characters. If a character can vary widely between playthroughs or they do something that goes against their character just to accomadate the PC, then I can't get attached to that character. I think that's why, even though I adore playing the romances, my favorite characters are non-LI's because they don't fall prey to this problem as much.

EDIT: snipped out the quote tree.

Well, you see that is where I have to be rude and say I can't really care because you and I see it so differenlty that we simply won't agree. I don't care if the parallel wolds or Hawkes is not consisten as long as they are consisten within each seperate world. I don't see falling in love as accomodiating the pc if the PC have been perfectly nice to them and done the things they find romantic since I don't have a problem with a gay Merrill and a hetero sexual in different worlds because the two worlds don't exist at the same time.

And while you certainly don't have to see thing my way, I don't have to see thing your way either.
I understand that Metaknowlegde can be game breaking, but in this case fairness and equal options for both genders are more important to me than the characther's sexuality. Not being able to go through the Mirror with Morrigan was not okay, and if not all the Li's are bi-sexual it is the optional one apperently who are. That is not okay. And when we are talking meta-knowlegde I value that over an sexuality consistency in the characthers which doesn't really matter to me, as I don't see sexuality as such a big part of the characthers of bioware that focus need to be on it.

Morrigan and Alister arn't gay (or bi).  If you want to go through the eluvian with Morrigan you have to play as a male,  if you want to rule Ferelden with Alister you have to play as a female.  This gives you a different perspective for playing as a male or female.

And what do you mean fairness for both genders?  Anyone can play as any gender and access any romance

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Mmw04014 wrote...
I'll have equally long discussions with you on how I think Ander's dating someone that is anti-mage is just as game breaking for me, etc.

Seriously, wth is up with that? He'll SPOILER, but he'll still fall in love with a mage hater. It's completely bogus. That is easily twice as bad as any other romance problem.

esper wrote...
On the other hand you specifically refuse to continue debate the compromise solutin which you yourself brought up. I exemplfied it twice now with Merrill, but you never ever comment on it, just take quotes out of context which means I will put you in the same category as those offenders. 

I'm not taking anything out of context. There was nothing to disagree with on Merril. They can offer an approach that will not ruin things for either of us and you said that in future characters it wouldn't bother you either. I don't have anything to add to that.

This isn't a contest. If a particular line of discussion is resolved in a way that is statisfactory to both sides, there's no reason to keep poking at it.

edit*
(actually, the more I think about it, the more I figure that the fact that opposite sides of such a strong disagreement were able to concretely agree on something is kind of a big deal)

Which is why I kept bringing the Merrill example op. In the hope to turn the focus on the thing we might be able to agree on. It would have been much better to turn our argument to that. We could have ended our discussing with  on a note that we can at least agree on and kept things civil in furhter discussion. 
Look for that agreement and react positively on it, with most people here (who aren't trolls, which is not that many).

And I don't mean to sound like I am purposely preaching to you. It is just a personal oberservation on how to turn the navigate the stormy waters here on bsn. Don't let the small agreement we as the divide fan base have go ignored.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...
I want to go through the mirror. You can rule Fereldan with Anora, but you can't go through the mirror with Morrigan as a sign of friendship and trust, even if she sees you as a sister. That is not all right.

You also can't get Morrigan pregnant with the god-baby.

Yes, I can. Alistar and Loghain are quite willing to let me persaude them to do it. Never not done the dark ritual.

Granted, but you didn't do it. Morrigan takes the father of her blasphemous child with her, whom she is also ostensibly in love with.

(not that she actually answered any of the questions around that *grumbe* *grumble*)

Actually she is not in love with Alistar, but trust the female warden as a sister. (You are fully capable of making the child without her being in love even as male). The dark choice always exist.
I don't see why she shouldn't let her 'sister'/best friend through the mirror. It is jarring an really brought my attention to how different the hetero/and bi content in da:o was in terms of actual content avaible to the players.

Edit. Hussey 92, this answers you too.

Modifié par esper, 04 avril 2012 - 12:43 .